Atheists officially outnumber Christians for the 1st time
Discussion
ATG said:
otolith said:
It's a depressing view of human nature to think that goodness only comes from empty threats of hell and promises of heaven.
That isn't what motivates religious people, ergo saying religion fills a useful role in society isn't predicated on holding a depressing view of humanity. otolith said:
ATG said:
otolith said:
It's a depressing view of human nature to think that goodness only comes from empty threats of hell and promises of heaven.
That isn't what motivates religious people, ergo saying religion fills a useful role in society isn't predicated on holding a depressing view of humanity. ATG said:
A quick illustration of the "science as a religion" style of unscientific thought:
If you asked someone "do you put your faith in religion or science?" a lot of people will say "science" when they should really be saying "that's a daft question".
I suspect that's because they are substituting the term 'faith in' with 'trust in' or 'confidence in' when hearing the question.If you asked someone "do you put your faith in religion or science?" a lot of people will say "science" when they should really be saying "that's a daft question".
lionelf said:
ATG said:
A quick illustration of the "science as a religion" style of unscientific thought:
If you asked someone "do you put your faith in religion or science?" a lot of people will say "science" when they should really be saying "that's a daft question".
I suspect that's because they are substituting the term 'faith in' with 'trust in' or 'confidence in' when hearing the question.If you asked someone "do you put your faith in religion or science?" a lot of people will say "science" when they should really be saying "that's a daft question".
ATG said:
otolith said:
Didn't say it was, I was responding to the claim that the removal of religion would lead to the loss of morality.
Did anyone make that claim? Efbe said:
it does.
any this comes back to another point I was making, there are some good morals that come out of religion. it is what a lot of it was designed for. lets not get into the obvious poor morals and control side of it, but being nice to people, sharing and helping those in need; it's all good stuff. When these lessons stop being taught, where else do they come from?
any this comes back to another point I was making, there are some good morals that come out of religion. it is what a lot of it was designed for. lets not get into the obvious poor morals and control side of it, but being nice to people, sharing and helping those in need; it's all good stuff. When these lessons stop being taught, where else do they come from?
Derek Smith said:
The decline of the various abrahamic religions might well bring with it a much preferable set of morals. Equal treatment of women, the acceptance that homosexuals are doing nothing wrong, the wish to constrain, the belief in a section of the community being the only ones who go to heaven, the rest to permanent torture (really quite repellent); all these have a basis in abrahamic religions.
The idea that atheism is a belief system was invented by theists in order to attack those who were not theists. You can, of course, be atheistic without trusting the scientific method. The two do not go together in the same way as, for instance, abrahamic religions and oppression. To accept the scientific method as the best way of explaining 'things' does not preclude a belief in a deity.
I think the scientific method is a great way to define the universe, from the ever so big to the ever so small, but I know that most, if not all, of the theories I believe today will be replaced/substantially modified in the short/medium term. That's what makes it so strong and exciting. However, it is obviously possible for a better way to interpret the universe to exist. That we don't know of it now, or perhaps yet, doesn't make it impossible. When it comes, then it will be accepted by some immediately but others later. It might, or might not, replace the scientific method. However, one should not stick with the old method just because a supernatural being might be upset.
I am not an atheist in the sense that I'm a member of a club. I just don't believe in any religion because they are palpably man-made. I'd suggest there might be something that could, with a stretch of logic, be called a god, but not one that is bothered about, inter alia, the gender of a person I sleep with. Any one/thing that pathetic is not entitled to be called a god. To me that goes even past farcical.
Believe what you like, I don't care, but don't pervade society with horrible beliefs, such as women being inferior and all the rest. Keep out of my life. And death. And don't bugger alter boys.
The negative effects of religion is what generates my posts. Oh, and the fact that my taxes support them.
I am not a class of person just because I don't believe in superstitious nonsense.
My thoughts exactly put better than what I could.The idea that atheism is a belief system was invented by theists in order to attack those who were not theists. You can, of course, be atheistic without trusting the scientific method. The two do not go together in the same way as, for instance, abrahamic religions and oppression. To accept the scientific method as the best way of explaining 'things' does not preclude a belief in a deity.
I think the scientific method is a great way to define the universe, from the ever so big to the ever so small, but I know that most, if not all, of the theories I believe today will be replaced/substantially modified in the short/medium term. That's what makes it so strong and exciting. However, it is obviously possible for a better way to interpret the universe to exist. That we don't know of it now, or perhaps yet, doesn't make it impossible. When it comes, then it will be accepted by some immediately but others later. It might, or might not, replace the scientific method. However, one should not stick with the old method just because a supernatural being might be upset.
I am not an atheist in the sense that I'm a member of a club. I just don't believe in any religion because they are palpably man-made. I'd suggest there might be something that could, with a stretch of logic, be called a god, but not one that is bothered about, inter alia, the gender of a person I sleep with. Any one/thing that pathetic is not entitled to be called a god. To me that goes even past farcical.
Believe what you like, I don't care, but don't pervade society with horrible beliefs, such as women being inferior and all the rest. Keep out of my life. And death. And don't bugger alter boys.
The negative effects of religion is what generates my posts. Oh, and the fact that my taxes support them.
I am not a class of person just because I don't believe in superstitious nonsense.
otolith said:
ATG said:
otolith said:
Didn't say it was, I was responding to the claim that the removal of religion would lead to the loss of morality.
Did anyone make that claim? Efbe said:
it does.
any this comes back to another point I was making, there are some good morals that come out of religion. it is what a lot of it was designed for. lets not get into the obvious poor morals and control side of it, but being nice to people, sharing and helping those in need; it's all good stuff. When these lessons stop being taught, where else do they come from?
any this comes back to another point I was making, there are some good morals that come out of religion. it is what a lot of it was designed for. lets not get into the obvious poor morals and control side of it, but being nice to people, sharing and helping those in need; it's all good stuff. When these lessons stop being taught, where else do they come from?
ATG said:
A quick illustration of the "science as a religion" style of unscientific thought:
If you asked someone "do you put your faith in religion or science?" a lot of people will say "science" when they should really be saying "that's a daft question".
Exactly. For example it is possible that someone be spiritual and interested in the scientific method. If you asked someone "do you put your faith in religion or science?" a lot of people will say "science" when they should really be saying "that's a daft question".
durbster said:
But millions of people have evidently left religion behind and have we become a society of villains? Are the least religious societies conducting the worst atrocities? Do we fear the Danish because their lack of religion has left them a nation of evil?
Of course not. We've found time and time again that when people stop believing, nothing changes.
There is an evolutionary explanation. Humans are social creatures so our species wouldn't have survived if it allowed members of its group to get away with malice. We have an instinctive desire to help each other out, by and large, because that's how we survived.
I often wonder just how the Israelites survived up until the point that Moses went up the mount to pick up the 10 commandments, if they were constantly murdering each other, stealing from each other, shagging other peoples spouses etc. Surely as a society, they would have crumbled years before without some form of inherent moral code and a largely decent standard of behaviour towards each other.Of course not. We've found time and time again that when people stop believing, nothing changes.
There is an evolutionary explanation. Humans are social creatures so our species wouldn't have survived if it allowed members of its group to get away with malice. We have an instinctive desire to help each other out, by and large, because that's how we survived.
Einion Yrth said:
ATG said:
what's the non religious equivalent of listening to the weekly sermon?
I go to the pub, it's not amazingly healthy, but it's a better use of my time.Troubleatmill said:
Einion Yrth said:
ATG said:
what's the non religious equivalent of listening to the weekly sermon?
I go to the pub, it's not amazingly healthy, but it's a better use of my time.Efbe said:
it does.
any this comes back to another point I was making, there are some good morals that come out of religion. it is what a lot of it was designed for. lets not get into the obvious poor morals and control side of it, but being nice to people, sharing and helping those in need; it's all good stuff. When these lessons stop being taught, where else do they come from?
Do the morals come from religion - or has religion simply adopted the prevailing morals in society at the time?any this comes back to another point I was making, there are some good morals that come out of religion. it is what a lot of it was designed for. lets not get into the obvious poor morals and control side of it, but being nice to people, sharing and helping those in need; it's all good stuff. When these lessons stop being taught, where else do they come from?
It's perfectly reasonable to expect parents, teachers, authority figures etc to teach morals. You don't need to dress it up in spirituality and faith.
Moonhawk said:
Do the morals come from religion - or has religion simply adopted the prevailing morals in society at the time?
It's perfectly reasonable to expect parents, teachers, authority figures etc to teach morals. You don't need to dress it up in spirituality and faith.
Be excellent to each other, dudes predates any currently extant religion, and is probably part of what allowed us to become the dominant species in the first place,It's perfectly reasonable to expect parents, teachers, authority figures etc to teach morals. You don't need to dress it up in spirituality and faith.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Don't you have a fundamental conflicting crisis at your core though? As an example Science tells you how the Earth was formed over billions of years and even has a damn good theory as to how we got the universe from nothing whilst Religion tells you its all down to a supernatural being. They can't both be right.Efbe said:
....this comes back to another point I was making, there are some good morals that come out of religion. it is what a lot of it was designed for. lets not get into the obvious poor morals and control side of it, but being nice to people, sharing and helping those in need; it's all good stuff. When these lessons stop being taught, where else do they come from?
Its been covered, but these morals don't come from religion. They are human nature pure and simple, and as also quoted - ironically, likely stem from evolution. Religion has adopted them as a powerful way to keep the faithful in the flock and persuade them to stay and not leave - or moral decline will unfold. Its an untruth. PS How nice to be agreeing with EY. I think we disagreed on something or other a while back - the scot indie ref I think it was. I always find it interesting to see how posters here I may strongly disagree with on one subject turn up in another unrelated topic and I find I totally agree with them - and vice versa.
I've found I agree with Derek on nearly everything however
If you have spent the first 20 years of your life being brainwashed by sky fairy stories.
It isn't always the easiest thing to dismiss.
The beauty of science - is that at its core is questions everything we know repeatedly. And when a discovery is made - everyone else and their auntie repeat the experiments and report back.
And we have new proven knowledge.... which is used to advance mankind.
Now... there have been plenty of experiments where "the power of prayer" has been used to help / or not make a blind bit of difference to individuals going under the knife of life threatening conditions.
Guess what difference the power of prayer made?
It isn't always the easiest thing to dismiss.
The beauty of science - is that at its core is questions everything we know repeatedly. And when a discovery is made - everyone else and their auntie repeat the experiments and report back.
And we have new proven knowledge.... which is used to advance mankind.
Now... there have been plenty of experiments where "the power of prayer" has been used to help / or not make a blind bit of difference to individuals going under the knife of life threatening conditions.
Guess what difference the power of prayer made?
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