Unelected EU commissioner vows to block elected governments

[Puggit]

limpsfield said:

Long time lurker , first time poster.

I am struggling to navigate this site, is there anywhere on NPE to discuss the EU as I can't seem to find any threads?

Merci

You don't think that the fact that the unelected eurocrats want to quash democratically elected governments deserves its own thread?

[limpsfield]

Puggit said:

You don't think that the fact that the unelected eurocrats want to quash democratically elected governments deserves its own thread?

At the rate things are going on here, the EU deserves its own sub forum. Or maybe "NPEu"

[rscott]

turbobloke said:

rscott said:

turbobloke said:

steveT350C said:

EnglishTony said:

"Unelected EU Commissioner"

Jean-Claude Juncker is President of the European Commission and elected by the European Parliament which in turn is elected by the citizens of the EU.

Do please pay attention.

Who was he standing against?

And elected in this context involves his name on a ballot paper, with other names, against which the UK electorate can mark its choice.

Unelected.

So our Prime Minister is unelected too. I see....

I see that UK voters in the Witney constituency had an opportunity to elect Cameron or somebody else in 2015. His name was on a ballot paper that they could mark to signal their choice. He was the leader of his Party and the consequences were clear.

If you'd read the post you replied to as it was written, rather than how you hoped it was written, you'd see that the unelected tag fits Juncker like a glove - no name on a ballot paper that UK voters can use to signal their choice - but not Cameron, as his name has appeared on a ballot paper available to Witney constituents. Witney is in the UK.

A small subset of the country had the opportunity to vote for him as an MP. The rest of us elected representatives who then decided who would be their leader (sound familiar?)

[danllama]

limpsfield said:

At the rate things are going on here, the EU deserves its own sub forum. Or maybe "NPEu"

Why don't you post that suggestion in the appropriate sub forum?

[ATG]

turbobloke said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

Puggit said:

I posted about this on Facebook - not one bite from the lefties.

Remarkable

Maybe they could tell they were being baited.

Presumably good ol' Juncker was merely baiting people who favour democracy over the EU rather than demonstrating yet again why remaining in the same sewer he's in will lead to smellies all-round.

"Who favour democracy" ... we all favour democracy. And the irony is that the powers that Juncker is talking about exist to deal with a situation where a member state's government starts behaving in such a way that it ceases to have domestic democratic legitimacy. The powers exist to protect democracy, not to undermine it. But don't let that interrupt the hysterical pro-exit ravings.

[Europa1]

ATG said:

"Who favour democracy" ... we all favour democracy. And the irony is that the powers that Juncker is talking about exist to deal with a situation where a member state's government starts behaving in such a way that it ceases to have domestic democratic legitimacy. The powers exist to protect democracy, not to undermine it. But don't let that interrupt the hysterical pro-exit ravings.

Good lord, someone has actually bothered to read what Article 7 is about, rather than frothing angrily off the back of a rabid headline in the Murdoch press. If some of the posters actually bothered to read the article regarding the process being implemented in Poland, it was in response to the elected government taking more control of the state media, and meddling with the makeup of Poland's constitutional court.

[turbobloke]

ATG said:

turbobloke said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

Puggit said:

I posted about this on Facebook - not one bite from the lefties.

Remarkable

Maybe they could tell they were being baited.

Presumably good ol' Juncker was merely baiting people who favour democracy over the EU rather than demonstrating yet again why remaining in the same sewer he's in will lead to smellies all-round.

"Who favour democracy" ... we all favour democracy.

Now speaking for everyone? Impressive, but clearly an empty boast and an inaccurate one.

Regardless of recent statements about EU megalomaniacs circumventing the will of the people in nation states if the 'wrong result for the EU' arises, unelected technocrats have already been inserted. The EU needs to un-insert its head from its own arse and take a look around.

At a softer level the EU Commission European recently said "sorry, but no" to the European Parliament's call for stronger rights for EU citizens. Ooman royts but only for the royt people including of course criminals and terrorists.

[JagLover]

Europa1 said:

Good lord, someone has actually bothered to read what Article 7 is about, rather than frothing angrily off the back of a rabid headline in the Murdoch press. If some of the posters actually bothered to read the article regarding the process being implemented in Poland, it was in response to the elected government taking more control of the state media, and meddling with the makeup of Poland's constitutional court.

Bit more to it than that as the previous government had packed the Constitutional court with its own supporters shortly before leaving office.

The battle over this issue illustrates in general one way that democracy is being removed in modern Europe. You can vote for whatever government you like as long as they can be overridden by judges with "approved" views.

[CrutyRammers]

ATG said:

"Who favour democracy" ... we all favour democracy. And the irony is that the powers that Juncker is talking about exist to deal with a situation where a member state's government starts behaving in such a way that it ceases to have domestic democratic legitimacy. The powers exist to protect democracy, not to undermine it. But don't let that interrupt the hysterical pro-exit ravings.

So the best way to preserve democracy (well, our poor version of it, but still) is to have an undemocratic organisation overseeing it?
Bizarre.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[FredClogs]

The EU parliament and it's organisational structure is no more undemocratic than all the other imperfect democracies around the world.

On the issue in point it's really only formalising what would need to happen anyway, would you be happy if the British MEPs and civil servants in Brussels were sitting down and having to engage with ridiculous far right extremists on a daily basis, no, of course not.

[John145]

This will lead to civil war.

Suppressing the democratic right to protest (which is what a vote to either extreme is) will never end well.

Governments are elected on a pendulum basis typically which is how the centre ground is defined. To just allow on direction is short sighted and dangerous.

[chris watton]

And to add more fuel to the fire:

"EU Plots Tax ID Numbers For Every European Citizen"

http://order-order.com/2016/05/25/eu-plots-europe-...

Still want in?

[ATG]

CrutyRammers said:

ATG said:

"Who favour democracy" ... we all favour democracy. And the irony is that the powers that Juncker is talking about exist to deal with a situation where a member state's government starts behaving in such a way that it ceases to have domestic democratic legitimacy. The powers exist to protect democracy, not to undermine it. But don't let that interrupt the hysterical pro-exit ravings.

So the best way to preserve democracy (well, our poor version of it, but still) is to have an undemocratic organisation overseeing it?
Bizarre.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Firstly it's not undemocratic. Democracy is about more than direct votes. For example we don't vote individual ministers into office, yet no one in their right mind is going to complain that british cabinet government is undemocratic on that basis. Secondly it is quite normal for unelected bodies to have oversight of democratic institutions, the judiciary and House of Lords being obvious examples.

[FredClogs]

chris watton said:

And to add more fuel to the fire:

"EU Plots Tax ID Numbers For Every European Citizen"

http://order-order.com/2016/05/25/eu-plots-europe-...

Still want in?

Yes. I'd have an EU National Insurance number - why not? And I'd have no real issue paying a direct tax to the EU, it would cut out the middle man, lot's of countries have local and federal taxes.

[CrutyRammers]

FredClogs said:

The EU parliament and it's organisational structure is no more undemocratic than all the other imperfect democracies around the world.

Yes it is, for the reasons given further up. In the EU None of the people being governed get a vote in those who sit at the top and govern them.

FredClogs said:

On the issue in point it's really only formalising what would need to happen anyway, would you be happy if the British MEPs and civil servants in Brussels were sitting down and having to engage with ridiculous far right extremists on a daily basis, no, of course not.

Well they have to sit down and engage with the ridiculous far-left extremists who run the show all the time, and I'm not happy about that either.

Who gets to say what an extremist is and when they cross the threshold of being ignored?
From where do they draw their mandate?
How do I remove them if I disagree with them?

[Getragdogleg]

FredClogs said:

chris watton said:

And to add more fuel to the fire:

"EU Plots Tax ID Numbers For Every European Citizen"

http://order-order.com/2016/05/25/eu-plots-europe-...

Still want in?

Yes. I'd have an EU National Insurance number - why not? And I'd have no real issue paying a direct tax to the EU, it would cut out the middle man, lot's of countries have local and federal taxes.

You are happy to pay more tax ? Because it isn't going to be less because of the "middle man" being cut out.

[FredClogs]

CrutyRammers said:

FredClogs said:

The EU parliament and it's organisational structure is no more undemocratic than all the other imperfect democracies around the world.

Yes it is, for the reasons given further up. In the EU None of the people being governed get a vote in those who sit at the top and govern them.

FredClogs said:

On the issue in point it's really only formalising what would need to happen anyway, would you be happy if the British MEPs and civil servants in Brussels were sitting down and having to engage with ridiculous far right extremists on a daily basis, no, of course not.

Well they have to sit down and engage with the ridiculous far-left extremists who run the show all the time, and I'm not happy about that either.

Who gets to say what an extremist is and when they cross the threshold of being ignored?
From where do they draw their mandate?
How do I remove them if I disagree with them?

Your first point is somewhat disingenuous, in the British system you don't get to decide who leads the country - the winning party members do, you don't get to decide who sits in the cabinet, who sits on what parliamentary commissions, who is chosen to sit in the higher (or lower) courts as judges, who sits in the house of lords and no one in the general population can influence the proposal of new legislation or laws either.

How do you remove David Cameron if you don't agree with him?

This is just the fuzzy and furry nature of democracy, it's not supposed to represent your views and opinions or even a mandate from the masses its supposed to be a robust set of checks and balances on the holding of power.

[CrutyRammers]

ATG said:

CrutyRammers said:

ATG said:

"Who favour democracy" ... we all favour democracy. And the irony is that the powers that Juncker is talking about exist to deal with a situation where a member state's government starts behaving in such a way that it ceases to have domestic democratic legitimacy. The powers exist to protect democracy, not to undermine it. But don't let that interrupt the hysterical pro-exit ravings.

So the best way to preserve democracy (well, our poor version of it, but still) is to have an undemocratic organisation overseeing it?
Bizarre.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Firstly it's not undemocratic. Democracy is about more than direct votes. For example we don't vote individual ministers into office, yet no one in their right mind is going to complain that british cabinet government is undemocratic on that basis. Secondly it is quite normal for unelected bodies to have oversight of democratic institutions, the judiciary and House of Lords being obvious examples.

There are many things about our system which is undemocratic, actually, in the true sense of the word. Representative government is not at all about "rule by the people", it's really just a safeguard against tyranny.

You are correct about oversight by unelected bodies. The point is that the bodies performing the oversight are bound by the law which is made by the elected bit, and have no law making powers themselves.
Whereas, the EU:
- ignores its own laws without sanction (eg the Greek bailouts)
- is a lawmaking body which produces new laws which in many cases override the laws of the member states.

It's not just an oversight body. It's a governing body. Not in any way comparable to the position of our judiciary or HoL.

[chris watton]

Getragdogleg said:

FredClogs said:

chris watton said:

And to add more fuel to the fire:

"EU Plots Tax ID Numbers For Every European Citizen"

http://order-order.com/2016/05/25/eu-plots-europe-...

Still want in?

Yes. I'd have an EU National Insurance number - why not? And I'd have no real issue paying a direct tax to the EU, it would cut out the middle man, lot's of countries have local and federal taxes.

You are happy to pay more tax ? Because it isn't going to be less because of the "middle man" being cut out.

This particular poster lets his/her loony Left ideology shine through in most of their posts, and should be ignored in a way that an equally foul far right poster would. Nothing more than a parody.

[FredClogs]

Getragdogleg said:

FredClogs said:

chris watton said:

And to add more fuel to the fire:

"EU Plots Tax ID Numbers For Every European Citizen"

http://order-order.com/2016/05/25/eu-plots-europe-...

Still want in?

Yes. I'd have an EU National Insurance number - why not? And I'd have no real issue paying a direct tax to the EU, it would cut out the middle man, lot's of countries have local and federal taxes.

You are happy to pay more tax ? Because it isn't going to be less because of the "middle man" being cut out.

Speculation but I'm happy to pay for better public services, I've lived in several place in the EU, some get better value for their taxes, some don't - an attempt to create a higher standard of public services across the continent wouldn't seem to be such a bad ideal.