Anyone else think the EU referendum is a complete scam?
Discussion
Guybrush said:
Yes, the country was broke in 1946. Broke from war, a war to fight off a dictatorship which wanted to rule us all... 
Quite, and we could have had a longer period of peace and tranquility if we'd just rolled over and waved another piece of paper in the air. Good to see sending a bucket load of cash to French farmers has kept the peace for 70 years, seems that NATO, 5 Eyes and having a few subs carry firey death has been a waste of time.cymtriks said:
You're too young to remember real shortages aren't you?
These are things that I remember old people telling me were treats in the 30's / 40's
An egg
A cup of hot milk with cinnamon and nutmeg
Fudge made of mashed carrot
A Woolton Pie (vegetable peelings in gravy)
"Wine" made out of any old vegetable
Chocolate truffles (made of 3 tablespoons of dried milk, 2 of sugar and 1 of cocoa - that's all)
A bananna
I've actually had some of this stuff and, trust me, granny's cooking is not best if you want taste. But if you are nearly starving Granny did know how to make everything go far enough to stop you actually starving, which explains what those "treats" were about.
Sorry to go off topic
This is what boils my piss with the so-called definition of "poverty" in the UK nowadays; not only that but most of the people who live in this "poverty" are doing so because they're feckless, thick, druggies or bellends.These are things that I remember old people telling me were treats in the 30's / 40's
An egg
A cup of hot milk with cinnamon and nutmeg
Fudge made of mashed carrot
A Woolton Pie (vegetable peelings in gravy)
"Wine" made out of any old vegetable
Chocolate truffles (made of 3 tablespoons of dried milk, 2 of sugar and 1 of cocoa - that's all)
A bananna
I've actually had some of this stuff and, trust me, granny's cooking is not best if you want taste. But if you are nearly starving Granny did know how to make everything go far enough to stop you actually starving, which explains what those "treats" were about.
Sorry to go off topic
Oceanic said:
When your local MP (Conservative) can't answer basic questions on what would happen post BREXIT you do have to wonder why this referendum is happening so soon.
This pretty much sums-up my frustration with this whole circus. Nobody actually knows, with certainty, what will or will not happen whatever way the vote goes. The entire campaign from both sides is founded upon speculation, speculation that has been based upon "spun" facts and figures.If they could just substitute "would" or "will" with "could" it would, in my mind, exponentially improve their credibility.
CaptainSlow said:
Guybrush said:
Yes, the country was broke in 1946. Broke from war, a war to fight off a dictatorship which wanted to rule us all...
Quite, and we could have had a longer period of peace and tranquility if we'd just rolled over and waved another piece of paper in the air. Good to see sending a bucket load of cash to French farmers has kept the peace for 70 years, seems that NATO, 5 Eyes and having a few subs carry firey death has been a waste of time.
EnglishTony said:
V8mate said:
EnglishTony said:
Not that scamming the electorate is anything new.
Democracy's a scam!I'm the man, deal with it....
Evidently, after more than two generations of continued democracy in western Europe, populism is so rife, that having a majority of votes doesn't constitute the cleverest result, but is closer to the lowest common denominator.
So yes, as long as populism is received, it's a scam.
NormalWisdom said:
Oceanic said:
When your local MP (Conservative) can't answer basic questions on what would happen post BREXIT you do have to wonder why this referendum is happening so soon.
This pretty much sums-up my frustration with this whole circus. Nobody actually knows, with certainty, what will or will not happen whatever way the vote goes. The entire campaign from both sides is founded upon speculation, speculation that has been based upon "spun" facts and figures.If they could just substitute "would" or "will" with "could" it would, in my mind, exponentially improve their credibility.
Oceanic said:
When your local MP (Conservative) can't answer basic questions on what would happen post BREXIT you do have to wonder why this referendum is happening so soon.
My local MP (also conservative) won't answer any question herself - she always gives the official party response. She has absolutely no will of her own other than being rather excellent at taking too much tax payers money and not saying sorry. Mildly incredulous that she got voted in again (Maria Miller).clonmult said:
Oceanic said:
When your local MP (Conservative) can't answer basic questions on what would happen post BREXIT you do have to wonder why this referendum is happening so soon.
My local MP (also conservative) won't answer any question herself - she always gives the official party response. She has absolutely no will of her own other than being rather excellent at taking too much tax payers money and not saying sorry. Mildly incredulous that she got voted in again (Maria Miller).NormalWisdom said:
This pretty much sums-up my frustration with this whole circus. Nobody actually knows, with certainty, what will or will not happen whatever way the vote goes. The entire campaign from both sides is founded upon speculation, speculation that has been based upon "spun" facts and figures.
If they could just substitute "would" or "will" with "could" it would, in my mind, exponentially improve their credibility.
Or at least give the public the confidence that they do have plans for both eventualities, I'm not that convinced there is any plan for a Brexit which is why I think calling a referendum on the matter without some good plans is pretty dumb!If they could just substitute "would" or "will" with "could" it would, in my mind, exponentially improve their credibility.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Having the chance to vote in or out isn't a scam, unless you believe the Government will fail to put into effect an out vote.
The scam is the more and more ludicrous projected effects put out by the in brigade which are immediately belittled as nonsense by the out brigade.
I bet most of the public is now more confused than ever.
To my mind, the scam is getting us all to focus on this issue as though it was the most important thing in the world, rather than a trivial irrelevance!The scam is the more and more ludicrous projected effects put out by the in brigade which are immediately belittled as nonsense by the out brigade.
I bet most of the public is now more confused than ever.
There's a reason why neither side is managing to come up with any really compelling arguments. It's because they know practically nothing will change, but they don't want us to decide that, and therefore ignore the whole thing and start taking them to task on what really matters!
Guybrush said:
There's no 'speculation' as to the current disaster that is the EU. Surely that's clear. Plus, one can safely assume the EU will turn the screws on us further if we remain and therefore have to chance of escape. Only the most institutionalised prisoner fears being let out of prison, preferring the certainty of his current circumstances.
If you want to debate in/out, please do it on one of the threads already doing that, so that this one doesn't get swamped and/or closed by the mods...Quite like Woolton Pie, though my version isn't veg peelings in gravy, obviously, and the pastry is better quality than in WW2, I would assume as wasn't born then.
Do agree with the general drift of the OP that the amount of time spent arguing the financials on this is irritating and a diversion from the key issues.
Do agree with the general drift of the OP that the amount of time spent arguing the financials on this is irritating and a diversion from the key issues.
FiF said:
Do agree with the general drift of the OP that the amount of time spent arguing the financials on this is irritating and a diversion from the key issues.
To be more accurate, my general drift is that the whole time spent arguing over EU membership (not just the financials of it) is an irritating diversion from the key issue, which is that the current cost of healthcare, welfare & pensions is going to destroy our country within a couple of decades, whether we're in the EU or not.FiF said:
Quite like Woolton Pie, though my version isn't veg peelings in gravy, obviously, and the pastry is better quality than in WW2, I would assume as wasn't born then.
Do agree with the general drift of the OP that the amount of time spent arguing the financials on this is irritating and a diversion from the key issues.
The key issue for me is the economic impact. The contributions we pay to the EU and the grants and payments we get back are a small part of the economic impact. I think the sovereignty argument is wildly exaggerated. I get the impression a lot of people (quite understandably) aren't really familiar with how the EU works. That has allowed them to fall for what I see as the scam, that being years of British politicians using the EU as a scapegoat for their own cock ups or failure to deliver undeliverable promises. That bullsDo agree with the general drift of the OP that the amount of time spent arguing the financials on this is irritating and a diversion from the key issues.
t had given a lot of people a massively exaggerated view of the importance and power of the EU. EU apparatchiks also exaggerate the importance of the EU, which makes it easier still to make them the butt of all complaints. In my opinion when you strip away the cant you're left with the EU really being the Single Market, a currency zone for those who want to join and Schengen for those who want to join.Kermit power said:
To be more accurate, my general drift is that the whole time spent arguing over EU membership (not just the financials of it) is an irritating diversion from the key issue, which is that the current cost of healthcare, welfare & pensions is going to destroy our country within a couple of decades, whether we're in the EU or not.
Great deal of truth in thisATG said:
The key issue for me is the economic impact. The contributions we pay to the EU and the grants and payments we get back are a small part of the economic impact. I think the sovereignty argument is wildly exaggerated. I get the impression a lot of people (quite understandably) aren't really familiar with how the EU works. That has allowed them to fall for what I see as the scam, that being years of British politicians using the EU as a scapegoat for their own cock ups or failure to deliver undeliverable promises. That bullst had given a lot of people a massively exaggerated view of the importance and power of the EU. EU apparatchiks also exaggerate the importance of the EU, which makes it easier still to make them the butt of all complaints. In my opinion when you strip away the cant you're left with the EU really being the Single Market, a currency zone for those who want to join and Schengen for those who want to join.
A fine example of this being the bit about people saying the EU forces us to pay immigrants benefits as soon as they arrive here.t had given a lot of people a massively exaggerated view of the importance and power of the EU. EU apparatchiks also exaggerate the importance of the EU, which makes it easier still to make them the butt of all complaints. In my opinion when you strip away the cant you're left with the EU really being the Single Market, a currency zone for those who want to join and Schengen for those who want to join.The EU does no such thing. It just forces us to apply the same laws to other EU citizens as we do to our own, so if you can't go to France and start claiming a benefit immediately, that's because their own citizens can't start claiming it immediately either.
If our government had the guts to declare that people couldn't claim unemployment benefits until they'd been working for at least 3 years, for example, that would immediately prevent immigrants from claiming benefits on arrival as well as addressing the far, far bigger homegrown problem, and it would all be perfectly acceptable under EU legislation. It's not EU legislation that's the problem. It's that our governments are scared to act against the people with their noses in the trough here because they need their votes.
Kermit power said:
To my mind, the scam is getting us all to focus on this issue as though it was the most important thing in the world, rather than a trivial irrelevance!
There's a reason why neither side is managing to come up with any really compelling arguments. It's because they know practically nothing will change, but they don't want us to decide that, and therefore ignore the whole thing and start taking them to task on what really matters!
Agree with that.There's a reason why neither side is managing to come up with any really compelling arguments. It's because they know practically nothing will change, but they don't want us to decide that, and therefore ignore the whole thing and start taking them to task on what really matters!
I am not even going to bother to vote as I really don't care if we are in or out. I actually received and tore up my card yesterday.
Kermit power said:
... What use is it having "Sovereignty" is the only options we have to vote for are identikit political parties who are terrified to do anything about the unsustainable monster that is State expenditure!...
Maybe this is changing slowly?- UKIP rose out of single manifesto point (pretty much) that took on enough ground that the Tories adopted it, winning the general election as a result (at least partly).
- Labour now have a very socialist leader as a result of their members being fed up with the old new school way their leadership had been going.
OK, plenty of other reasons likely to be at play, but the electorate are arguably making choices that are either giving other parties a go, or prompting the traditional parties to adjust their thinking.
With their governmental majority I was really hoping the Conservatives would have done more with some of the other topics you mention (expenditure on unsustainable items), but evidently real change is likely to take longer than we thought. And our electorate are unlikely to ever shift radically from the centre ground IMO.
The real problem here is the mess that our finances are in and no one wanting their pet hobby horse impacted. And that is our fault. Until a sizeable number of us start to acknowledge the unsustainability of the NHS and pensions etc, nothing material will be done about them (in the same way bugger all was being done about the EU - and may not be ultimately if we wimp out).
Murph7355 said:
Until a sizeable number of us start to acknowledge the unsustainability of the NHS and pensions etc, nothing material will be done about them (in the same way bugger all was being done about the EU - and may not be ultimately if we wimp out).
Try having a sensible debate about NHS funding and the reduction of (higher) tax relief on pensions, Murph.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff