Br Steel and the big Pension question
Discussion
Adrian W said:
Of course I understand it, its not hard, the employees signed up to the scheme expecting those terms to run until they retire or employment ceases, it was part of qualifying employees remuneration Tesco have arbitrarily change it.
It seems you don't understand it at all, or else you wouldn't make the false comparisons that you do.Adrian W said:
Long term employees see this as Tesco doing a Maxwell
It would appear that long-term employees are as ignorant as you regarding how these pensions work!Adrian W said:
The twist is that unless you are married you cannot leave any part of your pension to your estate, all that is paid are contributions and interest, this was hardly a headline term and was never driven home, the only way around this is a deathbed marriage.
The pension is a pension until death with an accompanying spouse's pension. This is how these schemes were priced - there is no 'fund' available to a deceased's estate.This is entirely standard for anyone with a modicum of pensions knowledge.
Adrian W said:
My point however was, how can Tesco change the scheme at will but Tata cant, Tesco must have more ex and current employees?
As explained above, changing future terms is quite different to retrospectively changing past terms. You claim you understand things but your questions suggest otherwise.Adrian W said:
I know people with ten years to go who feel they have been conned and would have done better elsewhere
These people are clearly idiots!Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 31st May 10:41
sidicks said:
Adrian W said:
I know people with ten years to go who feel they have been conned and would have done better elsewhere
These people are clearly idiots!V8 Fettler said:
Ian Geary said:
For the purposes of accuracy / balance, I started in local govt 15 years ago. If I built up 40 years service, I’d have retired on 50% pay max. Local govt is over 25% of all public spend, so I don’t recognise this 2/3rd figure, and don’t agree with it.
Added years were given occasionally (mostly to senior management), but have been unheard of now for at least 6 years at my place. The final salary scheme has been watered down to career average, employee contribution rates increased, recent loss of NI contracting out rebate (OK small) and - most punitive of all, the cap on total exit benefits of £95k. This has been absorbed by the sector, where salaries of like for like professions are still way below the private sector.
I concede senior management have often exploited the scheme by engineering early retirement exits just after 50 (increased now to 55) which can cost the fund up to £250k (now of course capped at £95k for redundancy, lump sum and any pension strain). Worth pointing out our own pension scheme has outperformed investment managers for the last few years, and has low per-head admin costs.
My point: do we want a race to the bottom on our pension provision? Who do that help? Other than the “fox that lost its tail”. We need a sector that is realistic, affordable and fair.
I think auto-enrol has been good, and I think more private sector employees should be forced to take responsibility for their old-age.
Trying to stop the small percentage of high paid employees from exploiting their position is pretty pointless - they collectively have just too much experience of doing it, but more transparency should be built in.
Ian
Public / private sector pay levels for equivalent jobs currently favour the public sector http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance...Added years were given occasionally (mostly to senior management), but have been unheard of now for at least 6 years at my place. The final salary scheme has been watered down to career average, employee contribution rates increased, recent loss of NI contracting out rebate (OK small) and - most punitive of all, the cap on total exit benefits of £95k. This has been absorbed by the sector, where salaries of like for like professions are still way below the private sector.
I concede senior management have often exploited the scheme by engineering early retirement exits just after 50 (increased now to 55) which can cost the fund up to £250k (now of course capped at £95k for redundancy, lump sum and any pension strain). Worth pointing out our own pension scheme has outperformed investment managers for the last few years, and has low per-head admin costs.
My point: do we want a race to the bottom on our pension provision? Who do that help? Other than the “fox that lost its tail”. We need a sector that is realistic, affordable and fair.
I think auto-enrol has been good, and I think more private sector employees should be forced to take responsibility for their old-age.
Trying to stop the small percentage of high paid employees from exploiting their position is pretty pointless - they collectively have just too much experience of doing it, but more transparency should be built in.
Ian
Still plenty of teachers, NHS staff and plod retiring in their fifties on generous pensions. Firefighters retiring even earlier.
You can opt out, but you miss out on final salary pensions, you still have to wait until 65ish to claim and you will pay tax on your pension, depending on the amount you get... but it is fair, unlike the public sector in the UK that can put in peanuts over 25-30 years and its like winning the lottery, but now they are not at a disadvantage over wages anymore.
A fair compromise is that the pensions should all go as their wages are better than private workers now.
sidicks said:
Possibly, but not sure of the relevance to the claims made by the OP..!
From your responses you must work in the pension/finance industry, where all of the victims are stupid for not having the relevant qualification to fully understand the weasel words in the contract. fortunately sooner or later you all get found out. Adrian W said:
From your responses you must work in the pension/finance industry, where all of the victims are stupid for not having the relevant qualification to fully understand the weasel words in the contract. fortunately sooner or later you all get found out.
I understand pensions. You clearly don't, hence your false comparisons and ignorant comments.Happy to have a sensible discussion on the topic, but that's going to be very difficult when you claim to understand the issues, but where your comments confirm the opposite!
Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 31st May 11:45
sidicks said:
I understand pensions. You clearly don't, hence your false comparisons and ignorant comments.
Happy to have a sensible discussion on the topic, but that's going to be very difficult when you claim to understand the issues, but where your comments confirm the opposite!
I don't want this to be a thread hijack, but I think what has happened at one of the UK's largest employers and people at Tata steel bleating is a very valid comparison.Happy to have a sensible discussion on the topic, but that's going to be very difficult when you claim to understand the issues, but where your comments confirm the opposite!
Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 31st May 11:45
Personally I got wise and have had a SASS for the last 30 odd years, and without the "help" of an IFA it is doing very well.
Adrian W said:
I don't want this to be a thread hijack, but I think what has happened at one of the UK's largest employers and people at Tata steel bleating is a very valid comparison.
You think wrong, as explained above. Presumably because you don't understand the massive difference between the two situations?Adrian W said:
Personally I got wise and have had a SASS for the last 30 odd years, and without the "help" of an IFA it is doing very well.
Not sure what relevance your SSAS (or the fact you took no advice) has to the topic under discussion - perhaps that's part of the problem, you don't understand the difference between DB and DC schemes ?Are you saying you chose not to take advantage of a company DB scheme, investing in your SSAS instead?
Given your claim that people 'could have done better elsewhere', can you set out the size of the employee contribution for the DB scheme and compare this to the value of the DB benefits that will be received from Tesco versus the accumulated value of those contributions had they been invested elsewhere?
Thanks...
Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 31st May 14:23
Adrian W said:
You still don't understand, from a layman's prospective how can one company mass about with its pension and another can't? I thought the rules put in place after Maxwell, we to stop this.
Again, you thought wrong. Changing accrued pensions is very, very different from changing the rules for future accrual (which happens all the time).And this has nothing to do with Maxwell - no assets have been stolen!
Adrian W said:
simply? industrial property portfolio, you can guess the rest, tax advisers agreed this was the most efficient way forward.
That doesn't really answer anything without explaining the contribution terms of the relevant schemes!I don't believe that tax advisors are best placed to advise on the value of DB scheme benefits...
Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 31st May 16:43
Adrian W said:
Of course I understand it, its not hard, the employees signed up to the scheme expecting those terms to run until they retire or employment ceases, it was part of qualifying employees remuneration Tesco have arbitrarily change it.
Huh? How is a change to future accruals relevant to losing past entitlements? No one is entitled to a job for life, let alone the same T&C's. 
sidicks said:
Adrian W said:
I think it's yes I did,
and I said "they felt they could have done better" I wouldn't know
Seriously, you came out of your employer's DB scheme in favour of SSAS?and I said "they felt they could have done better" I wouldn't know
What were the terms of that scheme?
Personally I hope you've made the right choice - none the less it's not possible to reverse now.
Good luck chap but as others have flagged what you have posted either you posted in error and not what you really think or you don't know much about the basics of pensions let alone anything more.
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