Expats/Brits Abroad and the EU Referendum

[Tony427]

BOR said:

Tony427 said:

We have two relatives living the dream on the Costa del something or other. Its like Eastborne in the sun.

Retired ladies in their mid 70's

Both voted out.

Cheers,

Tony

That's particularly stupid not to mention ironic(assuming you haven't made it up).

For countries with no agreement with the UK, pensions can and are frozen at the rate at the time of emigration.

And how do they think their medical bills will be paid if the UK sever ties with europe ?

And what exactly will prevent Spain from not granting residency permit to Brit Ex-Pats ????

So you are calling me a liar.

Nice.

Good to see such a high level of discussion.

Pensions. Apart from having their own they will still get the UK State Pension frozen or not. Theres 16 other countries that have social welfer agreements with the UK so I would imagine that the EU would be added to that list.

Health. Insurance and reciprocal charging arrangements.

Residency. International Law, the same law that will enable any EU resident over here to stay over here.

Cheers,

Tony

[PRTVR]

CaptainSlow said:

Oceanic said:

So, I am voting remain as it will at least keep things as they are more or less rather than massive unknown.

You think things will stay the same? How much more evidence to the contrary to you actually need?

Quite, look how much it has changed since we joined the common market as an indicator of how things will not stay the same.

[CaptainSlow]

British Expats...the people that spend their grey pounds propping up the Spanish economy and when old and infirm comeback to use the NHS. You think the Spanish would want to lose this cash cow?

[SilverSpur]

CaptainSlow said:

British Expats...the people that spend their grey pounds propping up the Spanish economy and when old and infirm comeback to use the NHS. You think the Spanish would want to lose this cash cow?

My mum, 79 years old, with medical issues, stays in Spain because she gets proper medical care out there from the very good Spanish system. If she was reliant on the NHS she'd probably be dead by now.

[Oceanic]

SilverSpur said:

My mum, 79 years old, with medical issues, stays in Spain because she gets proper medical care out there from the very good Spanish system. If she was reliant on the NHS she'd probably be dead by now.

I needed to use a doctor recently here in Sweden, booked appointment over the phone, paid equivalent of £20 and had the doctors attention for over an hour.

Compared to back in the UK, where I used to be told there were no appointments available in that week, sometimes even the following week, waiting in a packed waiting room for a delayed appointment that lasts no more than 15 minutes and the problem is treated like a can kicked down the path.

[Kermit power]

menguin said:

Kermit power said:

I agree with people living in the EU having a vote, as Britain's continued membership or departure will without doubt have some impact on them. I also don't think there should've been a time limit imposed on them.

People like my sister, on the other hand, who have chosen to make happy, permanent lives outside the EU... why on earth should they have a say?

I really don't understand why people get so hung up on where someone was born anyway.

I have French friends who've lived here for over twenty years, paying taxes and not claiming benefits. They are not entitled to vote in UK Parliamentary Elections, yet my sister, who has lived outside the country for the last fifteen years still is. How is that fair or sensible?

The Americans rebelled over "no taxation without representation", yet we're all perfectly happy to impose that on immigrants whilst allowing ex-pats representation without taxation.

Because as a citizen of the country I should be able to have a say in how it is run. I live abroad (outside the EU) and have done for 4 years but I won't forever and will move back in later life. Should I be excluded because of this? Should citizens who are on a gap year or a long holiday? Where do you draw the line? I think the line is currently drawn at 15 years. That seems a reasonable, if slightly long time.

I'll be voting to leave. I think it is best for the country long term and also don't have much confidence in the long term survival of the Eurozone which has serious implications for the EU.

Why should you have a say in how the country is run just because you happened to be born here?

Why should you have a say in how my taxes are spent when you're not contributing any yourself?

Why should my French mate who is paying £15k+ per annum here have no say over how his tax is spent, yet you contribute nothing and do?

By all means, feel free to vote again when you come back, but in the meantime, you're getting to vote on matters which have little or no impact on your daily life, and having a say on how other people's money is spent.

To give it an analogy, if you're going to be eating dinner with me and splitting the bill, then of course you should have a say in the price and food choices on the restaurant menu. If, on the other hand, you're not even going to be there, sod off and I'll make my own choices, thanks!

[TEKNOPUG]

Oceanic said:

SilverSpur said:

My mum, 79 years old, with medical issues, stays in Spain because she gets proper medical care out there from the very good Spanish system. If she was reliant on the NHS she'd probably be dead by now.

I needed to use a doctor recently here in Sweden, booked appointment over the phone, paid equivalent of £20 and had the doctors attention for over an hour.

Compared to back in the UK, where I used to be told there were no appointments available in that week, sometimes even the following week, waiting in a packed waiting room for a delayed appointment that lasts no more than 15 minutes and the problem is treated like a can kicked down the path.

I needed to use a doctor recently here in England, booked appointment over the phone, paid equivalent of £0 and had the doctors attention for over an hour.

What's your point? What does any of this have to do with EU Membership?

[Oceanic]

TEKNOPUG said:

I needed to use a doctor recently here in England, booked appointment over the phone, paid equivalent of £0 and had the doctors attention for over an hour.

What's your point? What does any of this have to do with EU Membership?

My point is that the many of the Brexiters think us expats want to keep our EU membership so expats can come home and bleed the NHS dry when it suits them.

The other perception is the NHS is something special, my past experiences suggest otherwise and so far I have received far better treatment in Sweden.

[TEKNOPUG]

Oceanic said:

TEKNOPUG said:

I needed to use a doctor recently here in England, booked appointment over the phone, paid equivalent of £0 and had the doctors attention for over an hour.

What's your point? What does any of this have to do with EU Membership?

My point is that the many of the Brexiters think us expats want to keep our EU membership so expats can come home and bleed the NHS dry when it suits them.

The other perception is the NHS is something special, my past experiences suggest otherwise and so far I have received far better treatment in Sweden.

I honestly don't understand why your chosen living arrangements or "ex-pat status" should have any influence or impact on the fundamental decision of UK EU Membership. At all.

Anyone who thinks expats are a strain on the NHS are idiots.

If you've received far better treatment in Sweden, and you think that's very important to you, then you are more than welcome to go and live in Sweden, as I understand.

I would think it very odd though, if you've somehow used these issues to formulate a decision on the forthcoming referendum.

[Oceanic]

TEKNOPUG said:

I would think it very odd though, if you've somehow used these issues to formulate a decision on the forthcoming referendum.

I haven't, there are other reasons stated earlier on my reasons.

[paulrockliffe]

Kermit power said:

Why should my French mate who is paying £15k+ per annum here have no say over how his tax is spent

Presumably this is because he's a French Citizen? He could have applied for British Citizenship by now and then been able to vote.

As a concept though I'm broadly in favour of a proportional link between tax paid and votes up to maybe £10k tax paid. Actually, if the EU voted based on contribution rates I suspect we wouldn't even be having this conversation about being in or out.

[SilverSpur]

TEKNOPUG said:

I needed to use a doctor recently here in England, booked appointment over the phone, paid equivalent of £0 and had the doctors attention for over an hour.

One of the least believable and not typical replies I've heard on PH for a long time.

Not accusing you of fibbing. Its just not the usual experience many people have.

You are talking about an NHS appointment, aren't you?

[beanbag]

I've been living abroad 11 years now and currently live in Spain and work in Gibraltar.

I'm firmly in the remain camp for many reasons.

Leaving will make my life a misery and add so many complications. Visas, work permits, healthcare, pensions, jobs, tourism; Everything will be affected negatively. (At least in the first few years). My life has a family business running a number of holiday rentals and it could potentially kill their business their accountants have warned. Small businesses like theirs run on very tight profit lines and they cannot afford to run for more than a few months without breaking even. A couple of years of tourism decline will put a huge amount of pressure on them.

Leaving will also put my job at risk and cause a lot of ridiculous problems on the Gib border with Spain. (They're already threatening to close the border.....not that they can do, but they will ensure it's constant chaos on the border). My company also relies heavily on open EU trade agreements to function. Without that, our costs will go up and I do see us having to relocate or downsize. It's not been communicated this way, but that's just my opinion.

I also have many more reasons to stay in and even if I lived in the UK, I would still remain firmly within the "in" campaign.

Europe has many problems but so does our own government and it will continue to do so if we leave. They won't disappear by leaving the EU and anyone reminiscing on "the past" has completely forgotten how broken our economy was in the 70's. I wasn't around then but to think we had some gleaming boom period as some of my elders have described is simply not true. Mining won't return. Fishing won't either. The towns that faded won't recover either. Times have changed. Demand has changed and the loss of a common market agreement will affect us for many many years I believe.

I know other people have different opinions and I completely respect that but I'm positive and very confident we will be better off as part of the EU.

Whatever happens and whatever your situation, I just hope it works out for the best.

[TEKNOPUG]

SilverSpur said:

TEKNOPUG said:

I needed to use a doctor recently here in England, booked appointment over the phone, paid equivalent of £0 and had the doctors attention for over an hour.

One of the least believable and not typical replies I've heard on PH for a long time.

Not accusing you of fibbing. Its just not the usual experience many people have.

You are talking about an NHS appointment, aren't you?

A doctor's appointment, yes, the same as Oceanic. An NHS doctor. Perhaps you are confusing it with an NHS specialist referral? Always get same day appointments providing you call before 9am and they will always make sure serious issues are also same-day. Does not cost anything obviously. I may not have spent a whole hour chatting away, using up their valuable time for other patients, but I'm never hurried. Sometimes it may take 10 mins, other times may require a long examination and consultation.

Depends where you live. If you live somewhere with high-density population and a lot of poor/old people, you can expect greater demand, pressure and therefore waiting lists. If you live where I or Oceanic live, it's obviously a lot quieter.

[beanbag]

Oceanic said:

TEKNOPUG said:

I needed to use a doctor recently here in England, booked appointment over the phone, paid equivalent of £0 and had the doctors attention for over an hour.

What's your point? What does any of this have to do with EU Membership?

My point is that the many of the Brexiters think us expats want to keep our EU membership so expats can come home and bleed the NHS dry when it suits them.

The other perception is the NHS is something special, my past experiences suggest otherwise and so far I have received far better treatment in Sweden.

Agree. The NHS in the UK is an absolutely terrible system. Pouring more money into it will have zero impact. It's the system that's broken.

I also agree the Spanish system is superb, yet I use private cover for everything as this is provided to me free of charge by my company. I don't see why I should burden the social system when I can get my medical needs covered privately.

Ultimately, I think the whole NHS system should be restructured which is probably an impossible task and leaving the EU will have zero impact on this.

[beanbag]

Tony427 said:

So you are calling me a liar.

Nice.

Good to see such a high level of discussion.

Pensions. Apart from having their own they will still get the UK State Pension frozen or not. Theres 16 other countries that have social welfer agreements with the UK so I would imagine that the EU would be added to that list.

Health. Insurance and reciprocal charging arrangements.

Residency. International Law, the same law that will enable any EU resident over here to stay over here.

Cheers,

Tony

That's absolutely not true.

Pensions, yes they will be usable through agreements made with the EU as with any other country in the world.

Healthcare will be a huge issue for your elderly family members. Do you really think Spain will fund their ever increasing healthcare costs for nothing? They have probably never paid a penny into the Spanish social system so as a resident in Spain, I as well as most Spaniards, highly resent you feeling as if they should.

Under the current EU agreement, the Spanish can claim back healthcare costs directly from the UK so that's all good, but if we leave there will be no agreement and I don't see one coming into place either.

The fact is your relatives will need private healthcare and unless they are very wealthy, they are in for a rough ride. My private healthcare costs are about £3.5k per year and as with everyone else, they go up year on year. I'm fortunate as my company pays but I would estimate your relatives costs would be double this.

Residency is also possible but they will have to renew this every year with a ton of bureaucracy. It's already pretty bad now but unless you've lived in Spain, you have no idea what bureaucracy is until you've seen it here. There will also be additional costs and this will probably apply to all EU countries.

Finally, EU legislation has forced Spanish government offices to provide English support for foreigners. Until recently, everything was in Spanish so it wouldn't surprise me if they revert back to Spanish only documentation. I would hazard a bet your relatives don't speak a word of Spanish.

Ultimately, old, retired people are a burden to economies. They contribute very little and cost a huge amount. Spain won't make it easy for your relatives so if they enjoy what they have, they should perhaps re-think their choice.

[Oceanic]

TEKNOPUG said:

A doctor's appointment, yes, the same as Oceanic. An NHS doctor. Perhaps you are confusing it with an NHS specialist referral? Always get same day appointments providing you call before 9am and they will always make sure serious issues are also same-day. Does not cost anything obviously. I may not have spent a whole hour chatting away, using up their valuable time for other patients, but I'm never hurried. Sometimes it may take 10 mins, other times may require a long examination and consultation.

Depends where you live. If you live somewhere with high-density population and a lot of poor/old people, you can expect greater demand, pressure and therefore waiting lists. If you live where I or Oceanic live, it's obviously a lot quieter.

We are drifting off topic a bit, I will say the surgery I used back in the UK in a relatively rural area limited appointments to 15mins and you could never get same day appointments, let alone same week appointments, that was 3 years ago and from what I hear from my father it is no better.

[TEKNOPUG]

Oceanic said:

TEKNOPUG said:

A doctor's appointment, yes, the same as Oceanic. An NHS doctor. Perhaps you are confusing it with an NHS specialist referral? Always get same day appointments providing you call before 9am and they will always make sure serious issues are also same-day. Does not cost anything obviously. I may not have spent a whole hour chatting away, using up their valuable time for other patients, but I'm never hurried. Sometimes it may take 10 mins, other times may require a long examination and consultation.

Depends where you live. If you live somewhere with high-density population and a lot of poor/old people, you can expect greater demand, pressure and therefore waiting lists. If you live where I or Oceanic live, it's obviously a lot quieter.

We are drifting off topic a bit, I will say the surgery I used back in the UK in a relatively rural area limited appointments to 15mins and you could never get same day appointments, let alone same week appointments, that was 3 years ago and from what I hear from my father it is no better.

So we'll agree that some doctor's surgerys are better than others? Be they in the UK, Spain or Sweden, none of which has anything to do with the EU Referendum?

[menguin]

Kermit power said:

Why should you have a say in how the country is run just because you happened to be born here?

Why should you have a say in how my taxes are spent when you're not contributing any yourself?

Why should my French mate who is paying £15k+ per annum here have no say over how his tax is spent, yet you contribute nothing and do?

By all means, feel free to vote again when you come back, but in the meantime, you're getting to vote on matters which have little or no impact on your daily life, and having a say on how other people's money is spent.

To give it an analogy, if you're going to be eating dinner with me and splitting the bill, then of course you should have a say in the price and food choices on the restaurant menu. If, on the other hand, you're not even going to be there, sod off and I'll make my own choices, thanks!

1. Because I am a citizen of the UK. You do understand that once I leave it doesn't mean I remove my right to abode? Do you therefore think that anyone who happens to be living in the UK at the time should have the right to vote on issues that may affect the country for many years in the future?

2. How many people in the UK do not contribute any tax income but have the right to vote? Do past contributions not count? It really is quite simple and will always go back to the point: I am British. I was born in Britain and have resided there for the majority of my life. Unless you support the removal of nation states along with any rights that may come with them, I can't see how you are arguing against it unless you are doing so simply to be obtuse.

3. Is he taking residency? Does he want to become British and have a British passport? No? If not, he is in the same situation as me in the country I live. I have no say in the running of the country I'm in and don't see why I should have - I'm living and working here for a time but will not be living here forever and therefore shouldn't be able to affect the long term success or failure of the country to vote for my short term desires.

You seem to be revolving your argument based on short term living arrangements. I don't agree at all. The people that should decide on the future of any country are the people that live, or intend to live there long term. Not the people that happen to be there for a couple of years. This brings me back to my previous point. You seem to believe that Mr Frenchman should have a say in the vote. This means you agree that there should be a time threshold for voting - how long you have lived in the UK, how long you have been away from the UK.
Do you agree? If so, what would you put the threshold at, and why? That is essentially what is in place right now. You're simply talking about shortening that threshold.

Re: Your analogy. As with most analogies it doesn't fit. The situation is much more complex than a meal out.

[Kermit power]

menguin said:

1. Because I am a citizen of the UK. You do understand that once I leave it doesn't mean I remove my right to abode? Do you therefore think that anyone who happens to be living in the UK at the time should have the right to vote on issues that may affect the country for many years in the future?

2. How many people in the UK do not contribute any tax income but have the right to vote? Do past contributions not count? It really is quite simple and will always go back to the point: I am British. I was born in Britain and have resided there for the majority of my life. Unless you support the removal of nation states along with any rights that may come with them, I can't see how you are arguing against it unless you are doing so simply to be obtuse.

3. Is he taking residency? Does he want to become British and have a British passport? No? If not, he is in the same situation as me in the country I live. I have no say in the running of the country I'm in and don't see why I should have - I'm living and working here for a time but will not be living here forever and therefore shouldn't be able to affect the long term success or failure of the country to vote for my short term desires.

You seem to be revolving your argument based on short term living arrangements. I don't agree at all. The people that should decide on the future of any country are the people that live, or intend to live there long term. Not the people that happen to be there for a couple of years. This brings me back to my previous point. You seem to believe that Mr Frenchman should have a say in the vote. This means you agree that there should be a time threshold for voting - how long you have lived in the UK, how long you have been away from the UK.
Do you agree? If so, what would you put the threshold at, and why? That is essentially what is in place right now. You're simply talking about shortening that threshold.

Re: Your analogy. As with most analogies it doesn't fit. The situation is much more complex than a meal out.

I fundamentally believe in both no taxation without representation and also no representation without taxation.

The single biggest problem that we have in this country - way, way, way bigger than deciding whether or not we should be in the EU - is the crippling effects of Universal Suffrage.

Look at what has happened in the post-war years. We've had a succession of governments buying people's votes by throwing ever increasing pensions and benefits at them, with nobody giving any thought to the fact that it all has to be paid for down the line.

Now we've reached a point where people are finally starting to wake up to the fact that we're heading for a complete financial meltdown, but our politicians aren't going to be able to do anything significant about it because the sorts of massive cuts that need to be taken would see them voted out of power by people who want the pot of gold at the end of the fking rainbow and don't want to pay for it!

Over half the households in this country are net beneficiaries of the State, for fk's sake!!! How on earth is that even vaguely sustainable? That's before you add on people outside the country paying in absolutely nothing who still want to keep having a say in who runs the country on the grounds that one day they might decide to come back!

The only possible hope we've got is for all even vaguely electable parties to come together as a coalition of national interest to abolish Housing Benefit (who on earth thought up that insane Landlord's wet dream scam in the first place????), halve all other benefits, provide matching tax cuts so that people actually get to choose how to spend their own money again, and bring in a law removing the vote from anyone capable of working who hasn't paid in a minimum amount of NI over the previous 5 years.