Expats/Brits Abroad and the EU Referendum
Discussion
Kermit power said:
menguin said:
1. Because I am a citizen of the UK. You do understand that once I leave it doesn't mean I remove my right to abode? Do you therefore think that anyone who happens to be living in the UK at the time should have the right to vote on issues that may affect the country for many years in the future?
2. How many people in the UK do not contribute any tax income but have the right to vote? Do past contributions not count? It really is quite simple and will always go back to the point: I am British. I was born in Britain and have resided there for the majority of my life. Unless you support the removal of nation states along with any rights that may come with them, I can't see how you are arguing against it unless you are doing so simply to be obtuse.
3. Is he taking residency? Does he want to become British and have a British passport? No? If not, he is in the same situation as me in the country I live. I have no say in the running of the country I'm in and don't see why I should have - I'm living and working here for a time but will not be living here forever and therefore shouldn't be able to affect the long term success or failure of the country to vote for my short term desires.
You seem to be revolving your argument based on short term living arrangements. I don't agree at all. The people that should decide on the future of any country are the people that live, or intend to live there long term. Not the people that happen to be there for a couple of years. This brings me back to my previous point. You seem to believe that Mr Frenchman should have a say in the vote. This means you agree that there should be a time threshold for voting - how long you have lived in the UK, how long you have been away from the UK.
Do you agree? If so, what would you put the threshold at, and why? That is essentially what is in place right now. You're simply talking about shortening that threshold.
Re: Your analogy. As with most analogies it doesn't fit. The situation is much more complex than a meal out.
I fundamentally believe in both no taxation without representation and also no representation without taxation.2. How many people in the UK do not contribute any tax income but have the right to vote? Do past contributions not count? It really is quite simple and will always go back to the point: I am British. I was born in Britain and have resided there for the majority of my life. Unless you support the removal of nation states along with any rights that may come with them, I can't see how you are arguing against it unless you are doing so simply to be obtuse.
3. Is he taking residency? Does he want to become British and have a British passport? No? If not, he is in the same situation as me in the country I live. I have no say in the running of the country I'm in and don't see why I should have - I'm living and working here for a time but will not be living here forever and therefore shouldn't be able to affect the long term success or failure of the country to vote for my short term desires.
You seem to be revolving your argument based on short term living arrangements. I don't agree at all. The people that should decide on the future of any country are the people that live, or intend to live there long term. Not the people that happen to be there for a couple of years. This brings me back to my previous point. You seem to believe that Mr Frenchman should have a say in the vote. This means you agree that there should be a time threshold for voting - how long you have lived in the UK, how long you have been away from the UK.
Do you agree? If so, what would you put the threshold at, and why? That is essentially what is in place right now. You're simply talking about shortening that threshold.
Re: Your analogy. As with most analogies it doesn't fit. The situation is much more complex than a meal out.
The single biggest problem that we have in this country - way, way, way bigger than deciding whether or not we should be in the EU - is the crippling effects of Universal Suffrage.
Look at what has happened in the post-war years. We've had a succession of governments buying people's votes by throwing ever increasing pensions and benefits at them, with nobody giving any thought to the fact that it all has to be paid for down the line.
Now we've reached a point where people are finally starting to wake up to the fact that we're heading for a complete financial meltdown, but our politicians aren't going to be able to do anything significant about it because the sorts of massive cuts that need to be taken would see them voted out of power by people who want the pot of gold at the end of the f
king rainbow and don't want to pay for it!Over half the households in this country are net beneficiaries of the State, for f
k's sake!!! How on earth is that even vaguely sustainable? That's before you add on people outside the country paying in absolutely nothing who still want to keep having a say in who runs the country on the grounds that one day they might decide to come back!The only possible hope we've got is for all even vaguely electable parties to come together as a coalition of national interest to abolish Housing Benefit (who on earth thought up that insane Landlord's wet dream scam in the first place????), halve all other benefits, provide matching tax cuts so that people actually get to choose how to spend their own money again, and bring in a law removing the vote from anyone capable of working who hasn't paid in a minimum amount of NI over the previous 5 years.
Prior to the first world war, poverty was rife and there was a huge divide between the rich and poor. There was little social care for the poor but Britain was "Great" and that was just fine.
This narrowed after the first world war and in the post-war era, Britain was broken. The economy was in tatters and people forget how everyone lived on ration cards for many years after; However Britain was still great in some fantasy world of many older generations and some deluded younger ones.
We were then invited to join the EEC but we refused our initial invitation to this agreement. We then had to return literally with our tail between our legs when we realised we would not recover unless we joined. In the meantime, the initial six boomed.
In that time, Britain was in a dire state and I sometimes find people's view of history is completely warped. Through conversation older generations feel the EU destroyed their local economy and somehow think by leaving, it will return to imaginary former glories. The reality is this is nonsense and this will never change. Industries change and money moves on. It has nothing to do with the EU.
What I'm trying to say is a lot of leavers live in a warped past and think this imaginary glory period will somehow return.
The fact is we were royally f
ked when we joined the EU and we've benefited from it hugely to become one of the strongest economies in the world.The benefits culture we see today is not a result of the EU but that of successive Labour governments instilling an attitude of "I deserve it" into the minds of successive generations. I still find it shocking when you see how many unemployed people own so many luxury goods; All funded by the state through so-called benefits.
With regards to Brits living abroad not paying in anything; Well you're completely wrong.
Most return after a few years.
Most keep their money in the UK and continue to purchase UK services.
Most will keep their pension pots in UK firms.
Most will return to the UK regularly.
Some like me work in overseas territories which pay money back into the UK economy.
As a British citizen, I have and should have every f
king right to vote in something that will affect me for the rest of my life.It's got f
k all to do with what taxes I pay and everything about how my life will be affected in the future. I thought I should also add the following. It came from a British gentleman called Geoffrey White. I have no idea who he is and I came across his post by chance but he lays down some hard facts about our past and a very strong argument to stay within the EU.
Geoffrey White said:
Some of my friends and relations have told me they will vote for Brexit in our referendum. At the risk of falling out with them I intend to vote for us to remain in the EU. Here's a bit of pre-EU history to help explain my position.
I grew up in a time of post-war austerity. My country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was broke and virtually in ruins. Germans were still "the enemy" in children's games. Bomb sites and abandoned air-raid shelters were our playgrounds. Nine years after the war ended butter, meat and sugar were still rationed. One couldn't buy sweets without coupons issued by the government.
Portugal and Spain were fascist dictatorships. In Spain unauthorised gatherings of more than 3 people were illegal. A military junta later seized power in Greece. Half of Europe was sealed off behind the Iron Curtain. I remember lying in bed at night, in my parents home, and hearing the roar of American warplanes flying overhead on their Cold War missions. We were told that, if the Russians unleashed their missiles, we would get 4 minutes' warning of Armageddon.
In Britain our currency was weak. We had exchange controls. Travellers were allowed to take only £25 sterling out of the country plus a limited amount in foreign currency. On return, any left over had to be sold back to an authorised trader. The details were entered in one's passport.
The UK still had the death penalty despite some obvious and irreversible miscarriages of justice. In France they still executed condemned prisoners by cutting their heads off. In Spain they used strangulation.
The press and the BBC, (there was only the BBC), were not free from government interference and books, films and plays were censored. Women were paid less than men for equivalent work and landlords could turn away black and Irish people with impunity. For private acts of "gross indecency" gay men were sent to prison.
During the 1950s, six similarly devastated European countries were determined that the catastrophe of war between them should never be repeated. They decided to work towards creating a single European economy. The result was never "just a trading agreement" as some detractors now suggest. The Treaty of Rome, signed in 1957, provided for free movement of goods, services, people and capital, with the stated aim of "closer relations between the States".
The UK was invited to participate from the outset, but Prime Minister Attlee rather scornfully declined, thus missing the opportunity to influence the future development of Europe. However, by 1961 it had become obvious that the economies of "the Six", (France, West Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg), were growing faster than ours, so we applied to join. It took 9 years of negotiations, (and 2 vetoes), before terms were agreed. The United Kingdom officially joined the European Communities on 1st January 1973.
In the 1980s many of our skilled workers took advantage of the free movement of people and migrated to West Germany, whose economy had already overtaken ours. These British " migrants" were the inspiration for a popular television series, "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet".
Since 1945 there have been wars in Europe, but none between countries that were members of the European Union. Despite global economic storms, the EU's citizens in 28 independent countries enjoy greater prosperity and greater freedom of movement, freedom from discrimination, freedom from conflict, freedom to trade across borders and freedom of expression than at any time in history.
So far no member state has ever applied to leave the EU. There have always been candidates to join but to succeed they must have democracy, the rule of law, a market economy and guarantees for the protection of minorities and human rights. They also need the support of ALL existing members, including us, without which they cannot join. In my opinion it would be a shame if Britain were to turn its back on Europe, give up its voice and influence, and opt for an uncertain future.
So...I shall vote IN on 23rd June.
I grew up in a time of post-war austerity. My country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was broke and virtually in ruins. Germans were still "the enemy" in children's games. Bomb sites and abandoned air-raid shelters were our playgrounds. Nine years after the war ended butter, meat and sugar were still rationed. One couldn't buy sweets without coupons issued by the government.
Portugal and Spain were fascist dictatorships. In Spain unauthorised gatherings of more than 3 people were illegal. A military junta later seized power in Greece. Half of Europe was sealed off behind the Iron Curtain. I remember lying in bed at night, in my parents home, and hearing the roar of American warplanes flying overhead on their Cold War missions. We were told that, if the Russians unleashed their missiles, we would get 4 minutes' warning of Armageddon.
In Britain our currency was weak. We had exchange controls. Travellers were allowed to take only £25 sterling out of the country plus a limited amount in foreign currency. On return, any left over had to be sold back to an authorised trader. The details were entered in one's passport.
The UK still had the death penalty despite some obvious and irreversible miscarriages of justice. In France they still executed condemned prisoners by cutting their heads off. In Spain they used strangulation.
The press and the BBC, (there was only the BBC), were not free from government interference and books, films and plays were censored. Women were paid less than men for equivalent work and landlords could turn away black and Irish people with impunity. For private acts of "gross indecency" gay men were sent to prison.
During the 1950s, six similarly devastated European countries were determined that the catastrophe of war between them should never be repeated. They decided to work towards creating a single European economy. The result was never "just a trading agreement" as some detractors now suggest. The Treaty of Rome, signed in 1957, provided for free movement of goods, services, people and capital, with the stated aim of "closer relations between the States".
The UK was invited to participate from the outset, but Prime Minister Attlee rather scornfully declined, thus missing the opportunity to influence the future development of Europe. However, by 1961 it had become obvious that the economies of "the Six", (France, West Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg), were growing faster than ours, so we applied to join. It took 9 years of negotiations, (and 2 vetoes), before terms were agreed. The United Kingdom officially joined the European Communities on 1st January 1973.
In the 1980s many of our skilled workers took advantage of the free movement of people and migrated to West Germany, whose economy had already overtaken ours. These British " migrants" were the inspiration for a popular television series, "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet".
Since 1945 there have been wars in Europe, but none between countries that were members of the European Union. Despite global economic storms, the EU's citizens in 28 independent countries enjoy greater prosperity and greater freedom of movement, freedom from discrimination, freedom from conflict, freedom to trade across borders and freedom of expression than at any time in history.
So far no member state has ever applied to leave the EU. There have always been candidates to join but to succeed they must have democracy, the rule of law, a market economy and guarantees for the protection of minorities and human rights. They also need the support of ALL existing members, including us, without which they cannot join. In my opinion it would be a shame if Britain were to turn its back on Europe, give up its voice and influence, and opt for an uncertain future.
So...I shall vote IN on 23rd June.
BOR said:
...
And how do they think their medical bills will be paid if the UK sever ties with europe ?
...
Those wanting to Leave don't (IME) want to "sever ties" with Europe. We simply don't want to be part of the political and fiscal union, plus the social engineering experiment, that the EU has become.And how do they think their medical bills will be paid if the UK sever ties with europe ?
...
Medical bills will probably be paid for in the same way as they are now - insurances. I believe Spain etc claim back the cost of treatment from the UK. I also believe that the UK could do the same thing but doesn't - different topic but that's down to the screwed up NHS and the way it's run along with the electorate's rigid view on "free at the point of access".
People have lived abroad for eons. People would continue to do so if we left the EU. It didn't take the EU to open up the opportunities for people to experience life in different countries. Those opportunities won't disappear if we exit.
Kermit power said:
...
I have French friends who've lived here for over twenty years, paying taxes and not claiming benefits. They are not entitled to vote in UK Parliamentary Elections...
If they want to take part ion such things, they can adjust their personal circumstances to do so.I have French friends who've lived here for over twenty years, paying taxes and not claiming benefits. They are not entitled to vote in UK Parliamentary Elections...
AJS- said:
Hopefully removing the right of the whole of Eastern Europe to move to the UK will lead to a more even handed approach to immigration from outside. Even with 5 years of marriage and a dual nationality kid it's quite a process. If my wife was Romanian it would be no more difficult than loading the car.
beanbag said:
The fact is we were royally fked when we joined the EU and we've benefited from it hugely to become one of the strongest economies in the world.
There is no actual evidence for this. It's correlation not causation. There is no evidence of where our economy would be now if we hadn't joined. You could argue that we were the 4th biggest economy before we joined and now we are the 5th - and that includes the dissolution of the Soviet Union who were 2nd at the time - so we've actually dropped 2 places since we joined.ked when we joined the EU and we've benefited from it hugely to become one of the strongest economies in the world.But as I say, it's just correlation. The economic argument is a zero-sum game.
SilverSpur said:
Kermit power said:
I fundamentally believe in both no taxation without representation and also no representation without taxation.
.
So you think my mum, who lives in Spain and doesn't want to return to the UK, shouldn't get a vote on it?.
I don't see many retired pensioners in Spain able to afford private healthcare which will be demanded from them if they stay.
If you don't think this happens, let me explain my personal situation. I am resident in Spain but I work in Gibraltar. An EU country, right? Wrong according to Spain.
They refuse to acknowledge Gibraltar's right to EU membership through the UK so any person resident in Spain but working in Gibraltar is not eligible to S1 healthcare. In fact, I had to prove I had private healthcare cover and I was treated as a non-EU resident by having to prove to the tax office I had €50,000 in cash in a bank account. (All because I wanted to register myself in Spain and pay tax to the country I reside in).
So, put that into perspective. That's fine for me. I work. My company pays my healthcare, but do you honestly think non-EU British pensioners living in Spain can do the same?
And it's not just Spain. Most other EU countries will be the same or similar.
I really am not trying to frighten or cause fear as I've been accused of by people I know, but the leave campaign claim everything will be the same but that's just b
ks.Why would things remain the same? Why would other countries allow it to remain the same? If they have to pay to get EU rights, why on earth would we get the same without paying!?!
It's pure fantasy.....and yet no reasonable exit plan yet from the leave campaign. It's madness.
beanbag said:
This is a common theme from many elderly people in Spain. They've become so accustomed to using the health system, they have forgotten this agreement will most likely disappear.
I don't see many retired pensioners in Spain able to afford private healthcare which will be demanded from them if they stay.
If you don't think this happens, let me explain my personal situation. I am resident in Spain but I work in Gibraltar. An EU country, right? Wrong according to Spain.
They refuse to acknowledge Gibraltar's right to EU membership through the UK so any person resident in Spain but working in Gibraltar is not eligible to S1 healthcare. In fact, I had to prove I had private healthcare cover and I was treated as a non-EU resident by having to prove to the tax office I had €50,000 in cash in a bank account. (All because I wanted to register myself in Spain and pay tax to the country I reside in).
So, put that into perspective. That's fine for me. I work. My company pays my healthcare, but do you honestly think non-EU British pensioners living in Spain can do the same?
And it's not just Spain. Most other EU countries will be the same or similar.
I really am not trying to frighten or cause fear as I've been accused of by people I know, but the leave campaign claim everything will be the same but that's just bks.
Why would things remain the same? Why would other countries allow it to remain the same? If they have to pay to get EU rights, why on earth would we get the same without paying!?!
It's pure fantasy.....and yet no reasonable exit plan yet from the leave campaign. It's madness.
It's possible, but unlikely - not least given that it would open the door to retaliatory measures from the UK which hosts its own share of expats from European nations: there are as many as 3 million EU nationals living in Britain.I don't see many retired pensioners in Spain able to afford private healthcare which will be demanded from them if they stay.
If you don't think this happens, let me explain my personal situation. I am resident in Spain but I work in Gibraltar. An EU country, right? Wrong according to Spain.
They refuse to acknowledge Gibraltar's right to EU membership through the UK so any person resident in Spain but working in Gibraltar is not eligible to S1 healthcare. In fact, I had to prove I had private healthcare cover and I was treated as a non-EU resident by having to prove to the tax office I had €50,000 in cash in a bank account. (All because I wanted to register myself in Spain and pay tax to the country I reside in).
So, put that into perspective. That's fine for me. I work. My company pays my healthcare, but do you honestly think non-EU British pensioners living in Spain can do the same?
And it's not just Spain. Most other EU countries will be the same or similar.
I really am not trying to frighten or cause fear as I've been accused of by people I know, but the leave campaign claim everything will be the same but that's just b
ks.Why would things remain the same? Why would other countries allow it to remain the same? If they have to pay to get EU rights, why on earth would we get the same without paying!?!
It's pure fantasy.....and yet no reasonable exit plan yet from the leave campaign. It's madness.
British expats can also claim to pay their own way in Europe, as the UK paid £674 million in 2014-2015 to other European countries for the treatment of UK nationals. However, the UK received just £49 million from other European nations in the same year to treat those from other countries residing in the UK.
As with everything, we operate a massive deficit with the EU. I don't think it would take very long for the Spanish to do a cost analysis for Income from UK citizens v health cost v health bill for Spanish citizens in UK. I could see them possibly removing free healthcare from any newly arrived UK citizens after a future date but that doesn't effect any expats.
beanbag said:
I really do resent your comments and they are totally arrogant and miss out serious truths from our past.
Prior to the first world war, poverty was rife and there was a huge divide between the rich and poor. There was little social care for the poor but Britain was "Great" and that was just fine.
This narrowed after the first world war and in the post-war era, Britain was broken. The economy was in tatters and people forget how everyone lived on ration cards for many years after; However Britain was still great in some fantasy world of many older generations and some deluded younger ones.
We were then invited to join the EEC but we refused our initial invitation to this agreement. We then had to return literally with our tail between our legs when we realised we would not recover unless we joined. In the meantime, the initial six boomed.
In that time, Britain was in a dire state and I sometimes find people's view of history is completely warped. Through conversation older generations feel the EU destroyed their local economy and somehow think by leaving, it will return to imaginary former glories. The reality is this is nonsense and this will never change. Industries change and money moves on. It has nothing to do with the EU.
What I'm trying to say is a lot of leavers live in a warped past and think this imaginary glory period will somehow return.
The fact is we were royally fked when we joined the EU and we've benefited from it hugely to become one of the strongest economies in the world.
The benefits culture we see today is not a result of the EU but that of successive Labour governments instilling an attitude of "I deserve it" into the minds of successive generations. I still find it shocking when you see how many unemployed people own so many luxury goods; All funded by the state through so-called benefits.
Up to that point, I fully agree.Prior to the first world war, poverty was rife and there was a huge divide between the rich and poor. There was little social care for the poor but Britain was "Great" and that was just fine.
This narrowed after the first world war and in the post-war era, Britain was broken. The economy was in tatters and people forget how everyone lived on ration cards for many years after; However Britain was still great in some fantasy world of many older generations and some deluded younger ones.
We were then invited to join the EEC but we refused our initial invitation to this agreement. We then had to return literally with our tail between our legs when we realised we would not recover unless we joined. In the meantime, the initial six boomed.
In that time, Britain was in a dire state and I sometimes find people's view of history is completely warped. Through conversation older generations feel the EU destroyed their local economy and somehow think by leaving, it will return to imaginary former glories. The reality is this is nonsense and this will never change. Industries change and money moves on. It has nothing to do with the EU.
What I'm trying to say is a lot of leavers live in a warped past and think this imaginary glory period will somehow return.
The fact is we were royally f
ked when we joined the EU and we've benefited from it hugely to become one of the strongest economies in the world.The benefits culture we see today is not a result of the EU but that of successive Labour governments instilling an attitude of "I deserve it" into the minds of successive generations. I still find it shocking when you see how many unemployed people own so many luxury goods; All funded by the state through so-called benefits.
beanbag said:
With regards to Brits living abroad not paying in anything; Well you're completely wrong.
Most return after a few years.
Most keep their money in the UK and continue to purchase UK services.
Most will keep their pension pots in UK firms.
Most will return to the UK regularly.
Some like me work in overseas territories which pay money back into the UK economy.
As a British citizen, I have and should have every fking right to vote in something that will affect me for the rest of my life.
It's got fk all to do with what taxes I pay and everything about how my life will be affected in the future.
Some will, some won't. Most return after a few years.
Most keep their money in the UK and continue to purchase UK services.
Most will keep their pension pots in UK firms.
Most will return to the UK regularly.
Some like me work in overseas territories which pay money back into the UK economy.
As a British citizen, I have and should have every f
king right to vote in something that will affect me for the rest of my life.It's got f
k all to do with what taxes I pay and everything about how my life will be affected in the future. I don't have a problem with those that do, but I also know plenty of people of my sort of age (mid 40s) who left before they'd started accruing any sort of assets and, if they return at all, will only do so when they retire. Why should those people get a say in the future that they're not contributing to?
The problem, of course, is figuring out how you decide what camp someone will fall into.
If you're in a British Overseas Territory, then I'd see it as a moot point anyway.
TEKNOPUG said:
It's possible, but unlikely - not least given that it would open the door to retaliatory measures from the UK which hosts its own share of expats from European nations: there are as many as 3 million EU nationals living in Britain.
British expats can also claim to pay their own way in Europe, as the UK paid £674 million in 2014-2015 to other European countries for the treatment of UK nationals. However, the UK received just £49 million from other European nations in the same year to treat those from other countries residing in the UK.
As with everything, we operate a massive deficit with the EU. I don't think it would take very long for the Spanish to do a cost analysis for Income from UK citizens v health cost v health bill for Spanish citizens in UK. I could see them possibly removing free healthcare from any newly arrived UK citizens after a future date but that doesn't effect any expats.
I expect there are 2 reasons for the deficiency, a) EU migrants to the UK tend to be younger that UK migrants to the EU and b) most EU health care schemes are insurance type schemes so have systems to bill providers, the NHS has no such systems so its terrible at billing other countries.British expats can also claim to pay their own way in Europe, as the UK paid £674 million in 2014-2015 to other European countries for the treatment of UK nationals. However, the UK received just £49 million from other European nations in the same year to treat those from other countries residing in the UK.
As with everything, we operate a massive deficit with the EU. I don't think it would take very long for the Spanish to do a cost analysis for Income from UK citizens v health cost v health bill for Spanish citizens in UK. I could see them possibly removing free healthcare from any newly arrived UK citizens after a future date but that doesn't effect any expats.
This is really some thing that should be in any leave plan, but as we know leave does not do plans.
Mrr T said:
TEKNOPUG said:
It's possible, but unlikely - not least given that it would open the door to retaliatory measures from the UK which hosts its own share of expats from European nations: there are as many as 3 million EU nationals living in Britain.
British expats can also claim to pay their own way in Europe, as the UK paid £674 million in 2014-2015 to other European countries for the treatment of UK nationals. However, the UK received just £49 million from other European nations in the same year to treat those from other countries residing in the UK.
As with everything, we operate a massive deficit with the EU. I don't think it would take very long for the Spanish to do a cost analysis for Income from UK citizens v health cost v health bill for Spanish citizens in UK. I could see them possibly removing free healthcare from any newly arrived UK citizens after a future date but that doesn't effect any expats.
I expect there are 2 reasons for the deficiency, a) EU migrants to the UK tend to be younger that UK migrants to the EU and b) most EU health care schemes are insurance type schemes so have systems to bill providers, the NHS has no such systems so its terrible at billing other countries.British expats can also claim to pay their own way in Europe, as the UK paid £674 million in 2014-2015 to other European countries for the treatment of UK nationals. However, the UK received just £49 million from other European nations in the same year to treat those from other countries residing in the UK.
As with everything, we operate a massive deficit with the EU. I don't think it would take very long for the Spanish to do a cost analysis for Income from UK citizens v health cost v health bill for Spanish citizens in UK. I could see them possibly removing free healthcare from any newly arrived UK citizens after a future date but that doesn't effect any expats.
This is really some thing that should be in any leave plan, but as we know leave does not do plans.
Who do you think "leave" are?
What's the "Remain" and EU plan? Do they have one?
SilverSpur said:
Kermit power said:
I fundamentally believe in both no taxation without representation and also no representation without taxation.
So you think my mum, who lives in Spain and doesn't want to return to the UK, shouldn't get a vote on it?If she's away and staying away, why should she be voting on matters here?
Remember, when we go to the ballot box, we're not just voting on who forms the government. We're also voting on who will be our constituency representative in parliament. Why should your mum get a say in who represents constituents in a constituency she no longer lives in, and might not have lived in for the past 15 years?
To my mind, the only fair compromise would be to have a handful of MPs for overseas constituents, who would be elected purely on the votes of registered voters overseas to represent their interests. I'd then restrict those MPs to voting only on certain strategic areas which do impact voters living overseas.
The vast majority of government legislation has no impact whatsoever on people living overseas, so I don't see why they should have a voice in deciding what that legislation is.
Kermit power said:
I fundamentally believe in both no taxation without representation and also no representation without taxation.
The single biggest problem that we have in this country - way, way, way bigger than deciding whether or not we should be in the EU - is the crippling effects of Universal Suffrage.
Look at what has happened in the post-war years. We've had a succession of governments buying people's votes by throwing ever increasing pensions and benefits at them, with nobody giving any thought to the fact that it all has to be paid for down the line.
Now we've reached a point where people are finally starting to wake up to the fact that we're heading for a complete financial meltdown, but our politicians aren't going to be able to do anything significant about it because the sorts of massive cuts that need to be taken would see them voted out of power by people who want the pot of gold at the end of the fking rainbow and don't want to pay for it!
Over half the households in this country are net beneficiaries of the State, for fk's sake!!! How on earth is that even vaguely sustainable? That's before you add on people outside the country paying in absolutely nothing who still want to keep having a say in who runs the country on the grounds that one day they might decide to come back!
The only possible hope we've got is for all even vaguely electable parties to come together as a coalition of national interest to abolish Housing Benefit (who on earth thought up that insane Landlord's wet dream scam in the first place????), halve all other benefits, provide matching tax cuts so that people actually get to choose how to spend their own money again, and bring in a law removing the vote from anyone capable of working who hasn't paid in a minimum amount of NI over the previous 5 years.
Agreed - the country needs to make cuts. Welfare state is unsustainable the way it is now. Totally agree on all points. The single biggest problem that we have in this country - way, way, way bigger than deciding whether or not we should be in the EU - is the crippling effects of Universal Suffrage.
Look at what has happened in the post-war years. We've had a succession of governments buying people's votes by throwing ever increasing pensions and benefits at them, with nobody giving any thought to the fact that it all has to be paid for down the line.
Now we've reached a point where people are finally starting to wake up to the fact that we're heading for a complete financial meltdown, but our politicians aren't going to be able to do anything significant about it because the sorts of massive cuts that need to be taken would see them voted out of power by people who want the pot of gold at the end of the f
king rainbow and don't want to pay for it!Over half the households in this country are net beneficiaries of the State, for f
k's sake!!! How on earth is that even vaguely sustainable? That's before you add on people outside the country paying in absolutely nothing who still want to keep having a say in who runs the country on the grounds that one day they might decide to come back!The only possible hope we've got is for all even vaguely electable parties to come together as a coalition of national interest to abolish Housing Benefit (who on earth thought up that insane Landlord's wet dream scam in the first place????), halve all other benefits, provide matching tax cuts so that people actually get to choose how to spend their own money again, and bring in a law removing the vote from anyone capable of working who hasn't paid in a minimum amount of NI over the previous 5 years.
However, it still comes back to my question - how long do you consider someone to be allowed to vote in the UK once they leave/stop paying tax? Should someone who is out of work for 2 months be able to vote? What about 6 months? Should someone who has left the UK for a gap year be able to vote if there is an election in that year? What about someone leaving to work overseas on a 2 year contract?
There has to be a line drawn. Currently that line is rather long - I think 15 years is too much. 5 years would seem reasonable to me. What I do consider unreasonable is saying that anyone who is not currently paying tax should not be able to vote on any issues within the UK. That has the potential to lead to a situation where politicians (who only care about the voters) ignoring those who, for one reason or another, cannot vote. Many might be lazy f
kers who don't deserve to vote, many however may be reasonable people who because of this change are suddenly unable to vote. TEKNOPUG said:
Mrr T said:
TEKNOPUG said:
It's possible, but unlikely - not least given that it would open the door to retaliatory measures from the UK which hosts its own share of expats from European nations: there are as many as 3 million EU nationals living in Britain.
British expats can also claim to pay their own way in Europe, as the UK paid £674 million in 2014-2015 to other European countries for the treatment of UK nationals. However, the UK received just £49 million from other European nations in the same year to treat those from other countries residing in the UK.
As with everything, we operate a massive deficit with the EU. I don't think it would take very long for the Spanish to do a cost analysis for Income from UK citizens v health cost v health bill for Spanish citizens in UK. I could see them possibly removing free healthcare from any newly arrived UK citizens after a future date but that doesn't effect any expats.
I expect there are 2 reasons for the deficiency, a) EU migrants to the UK tend to be younger that UK migrants to the EU and b) most EU health care schemes are insurance type schemes so have systems to bill providers, the NHS has no such systems so its terrible at billing other countries.British expats can also claim to pay their own way in Europe, as the UK paid £674 million in 2014-2015 to other European countries for the treatment of UK nationals. However, the UK received just £49 million from other European nations in the same year to treat those from other countries residing in the UK.
As with everything, we operate a massive deficit with the EU. I don't think it would take very long for the Spanish to do a cost analysis for Income from UK citizens v health cost v health bill for Spanish citizens in UK. I could see them possibly removing free healthcare from any newly arrived UK citizens after a future date but that doesn't effect any expats.
This is really some thing that should be in any leave plan, but as we know leave does not do plans.
Who do you think "leave" are?
What's the "Remain" and EU plan? Do they have one?
The remain plan is easy, keep our veto and veto anything we do not like. Mind you the rEU seems further from a new treaty than ever.
Mrr T said:
I think the leave team are a fairly comical bunch of characters who demand we leave the EU but are light on what leave really means, Do they want to leave the whole EU or are they happy to partially leave but keep say single market access, EU financial services passport, but still have the 4 freedoms, what will they want if that's the only options offered by the rEU. Will they expect complete withdrawal and all the economic costs that would involve.
The remain plan is easy, keep our veto and veto anything we do not like. Mind you the rEU seems further from a new treaty than ever.
THIS!!!The remain plan is easy, keep our veto and veto anything we do not like. Mind you the rEU seems further from a new treaty than ever.
But the leave campaign would like us to present a "plan" that we don't really need to offer since we're already executing it as we speak.
Cameron has agreed a number of concessions and over time they may or may not improve depending on what our elected government can negotiate.
SilverSpur said:
Kermit power said:
I fundamentally believe in both no taxation without representation and also no representation without taxation.
.
So you think my mum, who lives in Spain and doesn't want to return to the UK, shouldn't get a vote on it?.
I don't live in Spain so I wouldn't expect to vote in Spanish elections or whether they stay in the EU.
Edited by el stovey on Wednesday 8th June 15:07
el stovey said:
SilverSpur said:
Kermit power said:
I fundamentally believe in both no taxation without representation and also no representation without taxation.
.
So you think my mum, who lives in Spain and doesn't want to return to the UK, shouldn't get a vote on it?.
SilverSpur said:
el stovey said:
SilverSpur said:
Kermit power said:
I fundamentally believe in both no taxation without representation and also no representation without taxation.
.
So you think my mum, who lives in Spain and doesn't want to return to the UK, shouldn't get a vote on it?.
I've lived abroad most of my life, just because I was born in the UK doesn't mean I should automatically be able to vote in elections or referendums.
Like the Scottish people living in England during the independence referendum. You should only get to vote on stuff if you live there.
Mrr T said:
I think the leave team are a fairly comical bunch of characters who demand we leave the EU but are light on what leave really means, Do they want to leave the whole EU or are they happy to partially leave but keep say single market access, EU financial services passport, but still have the 4 freedoms, what will they want if that's the only options offered by the rEU. Will they expect complete withdrawal and all the economic costs that would involve.
The remain plan is easy, keep our veto and veto anything we do not like. Mind you the rEU seems further from a new treaty than ever.
What "leave team"? As I have said earlier, it's the government of the day and the civil service that will negotiate any exit. Maybe try and think about the issues from than the personalities, unless you hold much store in what the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Blair, Major, Brown, Mandleson, Kinnock et al or any other failed politician. Or perhaps heavyweights such as Chuka Umunna or Dianne Abbot? Yvette Cooper anyone?The remain plan is easy, keep our veto and veto anything we do not like. Mind you the rEU seems further from a new treaty than ever.
Remind me how many times the UK has used it's veto? What is the EU's plan for the current migration crisis? The Ukraine crisis? The Greek bailouts and inevitable default? Eurozone stagnation? Youth unemployment in southern europe? The PIIGS financial crisis? EU Fraud? TTIP? An EU army? Taxation harmonisation? Ever closer union as set out in the Treaty of Rome - or were the EU just lying about this? Which of these do Remain plan to Veto? How will the rest of the EU respond to the UK using it's veto?
Since 1996, Britain has tried to block 55 new laws in the Council of Ministers and been defeated 55 times - 55 times it didn't use it's veto.
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