'Lessons will be learnt'
Discussion
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Are you saying they have restrained her then left her alone in a cell? She's ELEVEN - if a couple cops arent capable of restraining a child of that age now then theres something horribly wrong. We were often called to a special care unit on my old area to assist with kids like this - wouldnt have dreamt of cuffing them. ,,or are kids more violent now than they were 'in my day'? Sussex Police have admitted it was wrong - stop defending them
Go and read the response from the fed Bigends said:
Ooooh - getting het up arent we? Some issues there? Of course she shouldnt have even been in a Police station -thats the fault of the healthcare system and not the Police. Nevertheless she was, and Cops have a duty of care towards her - which SHOULDNT - include using adult restraints on her. This is behaviour we accept by the Americans and NOT the UK Police. Think what you like about my service Do you have kids?? Would you be happy with them being treated like this-especially of they had mental issues. It was just plain wrong - accept it - try and defend it as much as you like.
You didn't answer the question. What would YOU have done for 60hrs on four separate occasions. I do have kids. I wouldn't abdicate my responsibility and expect the Police to deal with them.
Elroy Blue said:
Bigends said:
Ooooh - getting het up arent we? Some issues there? Of course she shouldnt have even been in a Police station -thats the fault of the healthcare system and not the Police. Nevertheless she was, and Cops have a duty of care towards her - which SHOULDNT - include using adult restraints on her. This is behaviour we accept by the Americans and NOT the UK Police. Think what you like about my service Do you have kids?? Would you be happy with them being treated like this-especially of they had mental issues. It was just plain wrong - accept it - try and defend it as much as you like.
You didn't answer the question. What would YOU have done for 60hrs on four separate occasions. I do have kids. I wouldn't abdicate my responsibility and expect the Police to deal with them.
tty - I spend all day dealing with wrong or questionable Police decison making - theyre not always right!Bigends said:
If it meant two cops sitting with her whilst she was in custody, ready to jump her each time she kicked off then so be it - they would have had to have been with her -restrained or not. They surely didnt leave her alone and restrained in a cell did they? Not everybody is a super parent - kids go off the rails and out of their control - its then societys job to step in and take care of them. I still dont think this was the way to do it the Sussex Police exec also agree. If it turns out she was some inbred, mutant 14 stone 11 yr old then i'll agree with the actions they took. If she was the average sized 11 yr old girl then no, sorry, cant agree with using those restraints just to make life easier in custody which has been defended under the usual 'her and our 'safety' reasons. Anyway.. play nice and stop getting stty - I spend all day dealing with wrong or questionable Police decison making - theyre not always right!
Why dont you pop down into your nearest crew room and ask a few of the bobbies what its really like these days. tty - I spend all day dealing with wrong or questionable Police decison making - theyre not always right!Where was the father in all of this? Unfortunately without pictures and backstory of the Family I can't make assumptions over the response by the police.
Anyone interested to know exactly what Neurological disorder she suffered from? Surprised that more lawyers don't use it to mitigate violent outbursts.
They could have simply tasered her and then put the restraints on, would have only taken a couple of police to do it and less likely to injure either the girl or the police.
Anyone interested to know exactly what Neurological disorder she suffered from? Surprised that more lawyers don't use it to mitigate violent outbursts.
They could have simply tasered her and then put the restraints on, would have only taken a couple of police to do it and less likely to injure either the girl or the police.
untakenname said:
Where was the father in all of this? Unfortunately without pictures and backstory of the Family I can't make assumptions over the response by the police.
Anyone interested to know exactly what Neurological disorder she suffered from? Surprised that more lawyers don't use it to mitigate violent outbursts.
They could have simply tasered her and then put the restraints on, would have only taken a couple of police to do it and less likely to injure either the girl or the police.
POLICE TASER ELEVEN YEAR OLD GIRL OMFG!!!Anyone interested to know exactly what Neurological disorder she suffered from? Surprised that more lawyers don't use it to mitigate violent outbursts.
They could have simply tasered her and then put the restraints on, would have only taken a couple of police to do it and less likely to injure either the girl or the police.
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
If it meant two cops sitting with her whilst she was in custody, ready to jump her each time she kicked off then so be it - they would have had to have been with her -restrained or not. They surely didnt leave her alone and restrained in a cell did they? Not everybody is a super parent - kids go off the rails and out of their control - its then societys job to step in and take care of them. I still dont think this was the way to do it the Sussex Police exec also agree. If it turns out she was some inbred, mutant 14 stone 11 yr old then i'll agree with the actions they took. If she was the average sized 11 yr old girl then no, sorry, cant agree with using those restraints just to make life easier in custody which has been defended under the usual 'her and our 'safety' reasons. Anyway.. play nice and stop getting stty - I spend all day dealing with wrong or questionable Police decison making - theyre not always right!
Why dont you pop down into your nearest crew room and ask a few of the bobbies what its really like these days. tty - I spend all day dealing with wrong or questionable Police decison making - theyre not always right!Now..had I still been in the job, i'd have defended the actions taken by Sussex without question - could have been me in that situation next time..but i'm not and give a more detached view with some experience to support it. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one
Bigends said:
Not according to Sussex Police who admit they got it wrong. It would have taken two to get the cuffs and leg restraints on (did plenty myself over the years) So two should have been able to restrain her safely (if they were physically up the the job - unfortunately many arent now) - they do get trained you know- without resorting to cuffs and restraints.
Restraints are preferable to being held manually. This was the finding of another complaint, this time not police, when a person died. The decision was quite clear.Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 8th June 17:38
Also, if the IPCC criticises a police force in a case, the force have no option but to agree with it.
Bigends said:
If it meant two cops sitting with her whilst she was in custody, ready to jump her each time she kicked off then so be it - they would have had to have been with her -restrained or not. .............
Would it not have been better for 2 mental health professionals to be with her in an appropriate unit? But no chance of that as the cops deal with everything like this,and then get slated.Bigends said:
I'm regularly out on area on officer training and still socialise with old mates still serving so have a good idea of the shortages and pressures put on them at the moment. I see the staffing, crime and incident levels every day
Now..had I still been in the job, i'd have defended the actions taken by Sussex without question - could have been me in that situation next time..but i'm not and give a more detached view with some experience to support it. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one
Fair enough. Now..had I still been in the job, i'd have defended the actions taken by Sussex without question - could have been me in that situation next time..but i'm not and give a more detached view with some experience to support it. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one
The police are wide open to this sort of thing now thanks to the lack of NHS to deal with it. The plod are the go to service after all.
I wonder why the mother couldnt act as her AA, had she made a complaint about her daughter because thats the obvious reason. Was the girl locked up for a criminal matter and given a MH assessment in custody? At that point the police cant let her go so if shes fighting she needs restraining. Cuffs are better than holding her in a restraint, blocks should have chain link cuffs for people who need to cufffed for a longer period.
I'd say the police did the right thing in restraining this girl, it was a decision made as the situation developed and I highly doubt the officers involved decided to just brutalise and tie up the girl for the fun of it.
I reckon that the mother lost control of the girl and called the police. They arrived, dealt with the escalating and violent situation which culminated in her being put in a cell and restrained. The mother became understandably distressed at seeing her daughter being treated this way, no matter how relevant it was, and in telling the story to friends or family they've told her how bad it is and encouraged her to go to the papers.
The police have to denounce this situation as to condone it would invite the wrath of the lefties, at least this way they can spout the typical "Lessons will be learned" line and quietly get on with doing their jobs again.
And as for those horrified that an eleven year old girl could be treated this way, perhaps they could remove the image of a small, angelic girl from their minds and instead imagine a girl who, if suffering heavy mental or physical disabilities, could well be built like the proverbial outhouse as many people of certain mental disorders are.
I reckon that the mother lost control of the girl and called the police. They arrived, dealt with the escalating and violent situation which culminated in her being put in a cell and restrained. The mother became understandably distressed at seeing her daughter being treated this way, no matter how relevant it was, and in telling the story to friends or family they've told her how bad it is and encouraged her to go to the papers.
The police have to denounce this situation as to condone it would invite the wrath of the lefties, at least this way they can spout the typical "Lessons will be learned" line and quietly get on with doing their jobs again.
And as for those horrified that an eleven year old girl could be treated this way, perhaps they could remove the image of a small, angelic girl from their minds and instead imagine a girl who, if suffering heavy mental or physical disabilities, could well be built like the proverbial outhouse as many people of certain mental disorders are.
Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Yes, instructed on PPE for many years and was level 2 PSU for over 20yrs
Ok being as you've turned it into a dick swinging contest I'm level one PSU and also a PST trainer and I disagree with you. You might owe an apology for that.
from a personal experience...
aged 6 or so I ran through a glass door and suffered a but of a cut to my lip (was bloody lucky TBH) so I was off to A&E where they wanted to inject me in the gum so they could stitch. Naturally I was a little upset at this point (claret everywhere, shock at being hurt etc etc) and not properly rational - it took 6 adults to hold me down so they could try and force my mouth open, whereupon I promptly broke their wooden clamps and bent their metal ones (and for good measure sent a nurse to A&E to get badly bitten fingers seen to). With this in mind I can easily see how a disturbed young person aged 11 could prove to be more than a handful - at at least I can if they're trying not to hurt, so every sympathy for the BiB
aged 6 or so I ran through a glass door and suffered a but of a cut to my lip (was bloody lucky TBH) so I was off to A&E where they wanted to inject me in the gum so they could stitch. Naturally I was a little upset at this point (claret everywhere, shock at being hurt etc etc) and not properly rational - it took 6 adults to hold me down so they could try and force my mouth open, whereupon I promptly broke their wooden clamps and bent their metal ones (and for good measure sent a nurse to A&E to get badly bitten fingers seen to). With this in mind I can easily see how a disturbed young person aged 11 could prove to be more than a handful - at at least I can if they're trying not to hurt, so every sympathy for the BiB
Another 'lets get some perspective' post.
My little boy - who is 2 - had to have his eye flushed out with water at the hospital. He decided he wasn't keen on that, but with chemicals in there, it had to happen.
I'm not exactly Mike Tyson, but it took nearly all of my strength to hold his legs still as they tried to do the flush. At the same time, and granted it was because it was my son, it was rather emotional.
Any of those officers who have kids won't have enjoyed that experience in the slightest, and those that don't probably didn't skip home from work that night.
I think its very difficult to judge this without all the detail. I agree on the face of it, it sounds awful, but please lets not bash the police for this. Those who have said that the real mistake is the lack of the relevant medical care for someone with mental illnesses are bang on the money. The police can't be experts in everything.
My little boy - who is 2 - had to have his eye flushed out with water at the hospital. He decided he wasn't keen on that, but with chemicals in there, it had to happen.
I'm not exactly Mike Tyson, but it took nearly all of my strength to hold his legs still as they tried to do the flush. At the same time, and granted it was because it was my son, it was rather emotional.
Any of those officers who have kids won't have enjoyed that experience in the slightest, and those that don't probably didn't skip home from work that night.
I think its very difficult to judge this without all the detail. I agree on the face of it, it sounds awful, but please lets not bash the police for this. Those who have said that the real mistake is the lack of the relevant medical care for someone with mental illnesses are bang on the money. The police can't be experts in everything.
Bigends said:
which SHOULDNT - include using adult restraints on her.
It depends on the circumstances. Anyone experienced in using force and the law knows it's wholly circumstantial.
If she was trying to hurt herself e.g. banging her head on the walls / floor then restraints are better than allowing her to do it / having officers restrain her. The latter risks inconsistent application and errors and is not suitable for sustained restraint.
Baryonyx said:
Jasandjules said:
Frankly, whilst I am not sure if it would be appropriate, I would suggest the police are trained in a couple of fairly reasonably simple to apply wrist locks. A Jitsu instructor ought to be employed.
You would be surprised how hard it can be to do anything, let alone kick off, when you are awfully busy wondering just how your arm can possibly hurt that much if you move.......
And how long will she be held in a wrist lock for? Handcuffs don't hurt, unlike a wrist lock, unless you fight against them. Are suggesting she should have been held in a restraint (formerly known as pain compliance) for 11 hours, or however long it takes to get her out of custody and into NHS care?You would be surprised how hard it can be to do anything, let alone kick off, when you are awfully busy wondering just how your arm can possibly hurt that much if you move.......
Handcuffing and limb restraints are less impactful and often more effective than hands on restraint.
The officers it has been suggested needed more training in dealing with people with mental difficulties.
At the time girls neurological illness hasn't been diagnosed.
Perhaps the police should have been doctors as well?
While I hope we've moved on from white jackets and padded rooms, if you call the police because someone is being violent I think you expect them to end up in cuffs and a cell. If think they're unwell, call doctors.
At the time girls neurological illness hasn't been diagnosed.
Perhaps the police should have been doctors as well?
While I hope we've moved on from white jackets and padded rooms, if you call the police because someone is being violent I think you expect them to end up in cuffs and a cell. If think they're unwell, call doctors.
Pain holds are great for those who are not drunk or drugged. However, there are times when someone stone cold sober can excite themselves to a level where they feel no pain. The pain holds I was taught live up to their description, and some, but I've used then on the mentally ill and they've had no effect. I once felt what I believe was the start of a dislocation of a shoulder. That's really painful done slowly. I had to kneel on the face of the bloke to ensure he didn't bite me.
The title of 'lessons will be learn' is glib criticism. What can the police do in such circumstances? Restraint by people holding on to someone violent is a recipe of a very big disaster.
Be thankful that you do not have to make critical decisions in such circumstances.
The title of 'lessons will be learn' is glib criticism. What can the police do in such circumstances? Restraint by people holding on to someone violent is a recipe of a very big disaster.
Be thankful that you do not have to make critical decisions in such circumstances.
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