'Lessons will be learnt'
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
Pain holds are great for those who are not drunk or drugged. However, there are times when someone stone cold sober can excite themselves to a level where they feel no pain. The pain holds I was taught live up to their description, and some, but I've used then on the mentally ill and they've had no effect. I once felt what I believe was the start of a dislocation of a shoulder. That's really painful done slowly. I had to kneel on the face of the bloke to ensure he didn't bite me.
The title of 'lessons will be learn' is glib criticism. What can the police do in such circumstances? Restraint by people holding on to someone violent is a recipe of a very big disaster.
Be thankful that you do not have to make critical decisions in such circumstances.
exactly Derek ... The title of 'lessons will be learn' is glib criticism. What can the police do in such circumstances? Restraint by people holding on to someone violent is a recipe of a very big disaster.
Be thankful that you do not have to make critical decisions in such circumstances.
also given the 'expert' opinion of some of the peopel claiming to be serving officers, control and restraint is a hell of alot easier with spray, baton, shields and taser ... but had any of those been used in this case i suspect the outcry would be massive ...
of course it;s easy to subdue someone if you are allowed weapons , especially if you don;t care about the 'red zones' e.g. the apartheid era SA police with their sjamboks ...
Statement from Sussex Police Federation regarding the IPCC report into Sussex Police interaction with Child H
“We are disappointed with the way our officers are being portrayed regarding their dealings with this Child H. Although only 11, she displayed a high level of violence and her restraint was necessary to prevent her harming herself or others. When someone of any age or mental capacity displays violence towards themselves or others, it is not practical to carry out a health assessment there and then and they are restrained to prevent injury. Not to do so would be neglectful.
It is interesting to note that her mother is reported to have said “what she needed was patience, respect and the support of her mother”. It is therefore slightly ironic that it was her mother who felt the need to call the police on several occasions.
It is also sad to note that yet again the police service is the emergency service of last resort when there are other public bodies who could and should been dealing with Child H. The Police Federation has for the last few years been saying that police cells are not the place for people with mental health issues but in reality in a lot of cases, we remain the default position.
We are unable to comment further as the IPCC have chosen not to share their report with the officers concerned but it is also of interest to note that despite what is being reported, no officer was dealt with by way of formal misconduct procedures”.
Ive had to restrain our 11 yr daughter when she was having a flip out moment (Asberges/autism) she was trashing her room, attacking her mother. A snarling animal is how I would describe her at that moment. Literally.
Im 14 stone/judo/martial arts etc she is a skinny, wiry little girl but she is very strong. There was not reasoning with her she was beyond talking to.
For 1 person to try and restrain her without hurting her is very hard to do and immensely tiring. Luckily I could restrain her for longer then she could flip out for. Once she had tired herself out/cried/got the balance back she reverted back to a normal lovely little girl who we love and who was scared at her actions and that she was out of control.
I have full sympathy for the police in trying to restrain without hurting this child and support them using mechanical restraints to protect her and themselves.
Im 14 stone/judo/martial arts etc she is a skinny, wiry little girl but she is very strong. There was not reasoning with her she was beyond talking to.
For 1 person to try and restrain her without hurting her is very hard to do and immensely tiring. Luckily I could restrain her for longer then she could flip out for. Once she had tired herself out/cried/got the balance back she reverted back to a normal lovely little girl who we love and who was scared at her actions and that she was out of control.
I have full sympathy for the police in trying to restrain without hurting this child and support them using mechanical restraints to protect her and themselves.
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 9th June 09:59
Rovinghawk said:
Greendubber said:
Rovinghawk said:
You have anything to contribute to the discussion or will you be sticking with insults?
Do you?I pointed out that I also have the training, more of it in fact and I disagree with him.
You though as usual seem to pop in with nothing to add on the topic so why not follow your own advice.
Greendubber said:
Rovinghawk said:
Greendubber said:
Rovinghawk said:
You have anything to contribute to the discussion or will you be sticking with insults?
Do you?I pointed out that I also have the training, more of it in fact and I disagree with him.
You though as usual seem to pop in with nothing to add on the topic so why not follow your own advice.
Quite a good statement from the Fed. They nail the point about the lack of capability / capacity from the services that should be dealing with her.
Interesting to see the anecdotes of those who've dealt with children (of various ages) all lining up, rather than people making unfounded assumptions based upon her age.
Interesting to see the anecdotes of those who've dealt with children (of various ages) all lining up, rather than people making unfounded assumptions based upon her age.
Jinx said:
Unless the phrase is "Heads will Roll" then no lessons will ever be learnt.
Rubbish. Fear is no way to manage and keep an organisation evolving. La Liga said:
Quite a good statement from the Fed. They nail the point about the lack of capability / capacity from the services that should be dealing with her.
Interesting to see the anecdotes of those who've dealt with children (of various ages) all lining up, rather than people making unfounded assumptions based upon her age.
Unless someone takes responsibility for the failings then no one needs to learn any lessons.Interesting to see the anecdotes of those who've dealt with children (of various ages) all lining up, rather than people making unfounded assumptions based upon her age.
Jinx said:
Unless the phrase is "Heads will Roll" then no lessons will ever be learnt.
Rubbish. Fear is no way to manage and keep an organisation evolving. I don't quite understand what you mean.
The IPCC have identified areas to develop in terms of training, and the organisation appear to have addressed the matters, both 'globally' and with the individuals involved. That's usually the best approach when intentions are right, but the execution isn't (unless the errors are of such a scale, of course).
A 'heads will roll' scenario also isn't even applicable when they've not really done anything wrong (no formal action was taken - just management / words of advice).
The volume of mental health the police deal with (where they shouldn't be) has increased so dramatically, of course there are going to be knowledge / experience gaps. You're asking people who fundamentally apply criminal law, to sort social / health issues. To sort them in absence of those whom are the experts and whose job it is to do so. What else is going to occur?
Would you be surprised if a doctor didn't get it 100% right if forced to do police work?
The IPCC have identified areas to develop in terms of training, and the organisation appear to have addressed the matters, both 'globally' and with the individuals involved. That's usually the best approach when intentions are right, but the execution isn't (unless the errors are of such a scale, of course).
A 'heads will roll' scenario also isn't even applicable when they've not really done anything wrong (no formal action was taken - just management / words of advice).
The volume of mental health the police deal with (where they shouldn't be) has increased so dramatically, of course there are going to be knowledge / experience gaps. You're asking people who fundamentally apply criminal law, to sort social / health issues. To sort them in absence of those whom are the experts and whose job it is to do so. What else is going to occur?
Would you be surprised if a doctor didn't get it 100% right if forced to do police work?
Jinx said:
La Liga said:
Quite a good statement from the Fed. They nail the point about the lack of capability / capacity from the services that should be dealing with her.
Interesting to see the anecdotes of those who've dealt with children (of various ages) all lining up, rather than people making unfounded assumptions based upon her age.
Unless someone takes responsibility for the failings then no one needs to learn any lessons.Interesting to see the anecdotes of those who've dealt with children (of various ages) all lining up, rather than people making unfounded assumptions based upon her age.
Jinx said:
Unless the phrase is "Heads will Roll" then no lessons will ever be learnt.
Rubbish. Fear is no way to manage and keep an organisation evolving. Greendubber said:
Statement from Sussex Police Federation regarding the IPCC report into Sussex Police interaction with Child H
“We are disappointed with the way our officers are being portrayed regarding their dealings with this Child H. Although only 11, she displayed a high level of violence and her restraint was necessary to prevent her harming herself or others. When someone of any age or mental capacity displays violence towards themselves or others, it is not practical to carry out a health assessment there and then and they are restrained to prevent injury. Not to do so would be neglectful.
It is interesting to note that her mother is reported to have said “what she needed was patience, respect and the support of her mother”. It is therefore slightly ironic that it was her mother who felt the need to call the police on several occasions.
It is also sad to note that yet again the police service is the emergency service of last resort when there are other public bodies who could and should been dealing with Child H. The Police Federation has for the last few years been saying that police cells are not the place for people with mental health issues but in reality in a lot of cases, we remain the default position.
We are unable to comment further as the IPCC have chosen not to share their report with the officers concerned but it is also of interest to note that despite what is being reported, no officer was dealt with by way of formal misconduct procedures”.
Now that last sentence is a remarkable one. I've not known any officer who was criticised, even in a group incident, not being informed. Remarkable is, perhaps, not the word. Perhaps telling, eye-opener, or perhaps complete explanation. “We are disappointed with the way our officers are being portrayed regarding their dealings with this Child H. Although only 11, she displayed a high level of violence and her restraint was necessary to prevent her harming herself or others. When someone of any age or mental capacity displays violence towards themselves or others, it is not practical to carry out a health assessment there and then and they are restrained to prevent injury. Not to do so would be neglectful.
It is interesting to note that her mother is reported to have said “what she needed was patience, respect and the support of her mother”. It is therefore slightly ironic that it was her mother who felt the need to call the police on several occasions.
It is also sad to note that yet again the police service is the emergency service of last resort when there are other public bodies who could and should been dealing with Child H. The Police Federation has for the last few years been saying that police cells are not the place for people with mental health issues but in reality in a lot of cases, we remain the default position.
We are unable to comment further as the IPCC have chosen not to share their report with the officers concerned but it is also of interest to note that despite what is being reported, no officer was dealt with by way of formal misconduct procedures”.
Jinx said:
Unless the phrase is "Heads will Roll" then no lessons will ever be learnt.
That'll solve the problem you think?It has been proved, time and time again as a dreadful method of continual improvement.
It is a farcical way of dealing with the problem.
Should the head of the NHS be beheaded because, after all, it was their failure to deal with the child?
Should it be the chief constable who has not control of an unfolding incident?
Or perhaps the controller of finances of the force for not putting enough resources into training for those jobs which aren't the responsibility of the police?
Then there's those who have said in the past, this includes coroners, judges, miscellaneous lawyers, that the police should not use brute force to restrain but use restraint equipment?
Then there's the medical advice all officers are given of avoiding spittle from prisoners - that doctor should be struck off you think?
Anyone except, of course, the PCs as they haven't been disciplined.
Not only that, there is the nonsensical belief that sacking someone will, somehow, stop the problem from reoccurring.
Any manager worth her or his salt will know that the best way of improving a group's performance is to get the staff to admit errors. That way we can ensure that 'lessons will be learnt', surely the best outcome there could be. But no, it seems. The best system is one which will encourage people to blame others.
I was taught management skills first way back in the 80s and learning from mistakes was there. Hardly cutting edge. Yet there are always those who want someone to take the blame in the misbelief that this will make some kind of difference.
Greendubber said:
By error do you mean posting that I am equally (well more actually) qualified than the person thats blahing on about experience and training levels on the matter being debated?
No, the bit about it being a pissing contest when it was simply giving a full answer to a direct question.I still think you owe him an apology for that.
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