EU Referendum Poll - Final Call
Poll: EU Referendum Poll - Final Call
Total Members Polled: 803
Discussion
Blue62 said:
AJL308 said:
The number of laws we curently have which originate from the EU is irrelevant.
EU law is supreme law of the EU. Fact.
I don't want that. I want laws made in Westminster to be the supreme law of the UK.
Anyone who cannot agree to the statement "I want the supreme law of the UK to be made in Brussels by people who are citizens of foreign nations" MUST vote leave.
Of course any law drafted within the EU with the agreement of the council of ministers will be the supreme law of the EU, but that is not to say that we do not retain sovereignty, simply defer on certain points. It's no different with NATO or the UN. You my not like some of the laws and that's fine, but you need to understand that the laws are passed with the consent of parliament, fact I'm afraid.EU law is supreme law of the EU. Fact.
I don't want that. I want laws made in Westminster to be the supreme law of the UK.
Anyone who cannot agree to the statement "I want the supreme law of the UK to be made in Brussels by people who are citizens of foreign nations" MUST vote leave.
All of what you say is true. It is still a fact though that EU laws are passed by people who are not enacting them with the UK as their first priority and by people who owe the UK no allegiance. The fact that Parliament allows this is not the point - Parliament shouldn't and that is what the referendum is about.
If that is what you want then fine but say it clearly so that no one is in any doubt about what staying in the EU actually is. A foreign institution passing UK laws without having the UK as its first priority.
lionelf said:
Beati Dogu said:
dirty boy said:
Same idiots running our country as in Brussels, just with a different language, so it's a choice that's not as straight forward as you make it sound. We're not 'governed' by Brussels it's just a place where 27 countries come together and agree on stuff after a lot of twoing and froing to ensure all are happy.
People like you frighten me. The majority of our laws and regulation come direct from the EU. By any definition, we are government by the EU.https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU_SWwDX3O0
king arthur said:
Telling people they MUST do something makes them far less likely to want to do it. That, however, is what the Remain establishment have failed to understand.
Fear of the unknown is largely what any remain campaign is based on and it's a very powerful stimulus. Look at the Scottish referendum or the amount of people stuck in unhappy marriages, it's much harder to leave something if you're a bit worried about the consequences. Despite PHs results I still expect there will be enough people who aren't sure or worried enough to to stay in. If people are undecided they're going to vote in rather than out generally. Blue62 said:
I honestly don't think there's an answer to that, even if you phrased it to read 'more democratic', there are simply too many variables, a bit like asking which is the more corrupt state, or which is the more secretive.
We voted to be in the Common Market, membership comes at a price, some of us think it is a price worth paying, some don't and it certainly is not perfect but does anyone seriously believe life on the other side will be perfect? The fact remains that our sovereignty is not at stake despite what the Leave campaign would have us believe and on the balance of expert opinion (academics, business leaders and military) our economy and security are better served by staying in.
Have you read the Lisbon treaty? We voted to be in the Common Market, membership comes at a price, some of us think it is a price worth paying, some don't and it certainly is not perfect but does anyone seriously believe life on the other side will be perfect? The fact remains that our sovereignty is not at stake despite what the Leave campaign would have us believe and on the balance of expert opinion (academics, business leaders and military) our economy and security are better served by staying in.
king arthur said:
Telling people they MUST do something makes them far less likely to want to do it. That, however, is what the Remain establishment have failed to understand.
Possibly a bad choicer of word to use. I meant it in the context that if you want too be honest about the choice you make then only leave is the correct vote. If you do not agree with a foreign institution making UK law then Remain is not a compatible vote. If you do then it is. powerstroke said:
longblackcoat said:
The results at this stage (28% in, 72% out) demonstrate why PH NP&E should be never be taken as in any way reflective of UK sentiment as a whole.
No that's true there isn't much for mouth breathers , trustafarians , trendy leftys and other dross on here so not that representative of all the population... we have some token leftys and village idiots which gives a small level of balance !Edited by powerstroke on Monday 20th June 08:35
dirty boy said:
AJL308 said:
lostkiwi said:
Beati Dogu said:
dirty boy said:
Same idiots running our country as in Brussels, just with a different language, so it's a choice that's not as straight forward as you make it sound. We're not 'governed' by Brussels it's just a place where 27 countries come together and agree on stuff after a lot of twoing and froing to ensure all are happy.
People like you frighten me. The majority of our laws and regulation come direct from the EU. By any definition, we are government by the EU.There are two main types of EU 'laws'.
Regulations which are where we are told how to do something
Directives which are guidance on what to do but have flexibilty as to how (i.e. we choose what law to pass and how to phrase it to accomplish something).
In terms of regulations 28% of our laws come from regulations.
Your statement 'most of' is only true if you include Directives (which we actually draft ourselves).
EU law is supreme law of the EU. Fact.
I don't want that. I want laws made in Westminster to be the supreme law of the UK.
Anyone who cannot agree to the statement "I want the supreme law of the UK to be made in Brussels by people who are citizens of foreign nations" MUST vote leave.
Playing devil's advocate here, but what makes the will of Westminster better than the will of combined nations? Surely the greater the demographic, by its very nature, the more democratic it is? One head is better than two etc?
I've always been told, "No matter how right you think you are, no matter how you can't possibly think you are wrong and someone else is, it doesn't mean you are right" and I always try to remember that.
PS Beati Dogu, I'm just an accountant with a wife and two children, please don't be frightened, I'm not exactly scary or a complete retard with no comprehension on these matters, merely offering a point of view (not even necessarily an opinion).
Blue62 said:
I honestly don't think there's an answer to that, even if you phrased it to read 'more democratic', there are simply too many variables, a bit like asking which is the more corrupt state, or which is the more secretive.
We voted to be in the Common Market, membership comes at a price, some of us think it is a price worth paying, some don't and it certainly is not perfect but does anyone seriously believe life on the other side will be perfect? The fact remains that our sovereignty is not at stake despite what the Leave campaign would have us believe and on the balance of expert opinion (academics, business leaders and military) our economy and security are better served by staying in.
You can conduct reports like this below:We voted to be in the Common Market, membership comes at a price, some of us think it is a price worth paying, some don't and it certainly is not perfect but does anyone seriously believe life on the other side will be perfect? The fact remains that our sovereignty is not at stake despite what the Leave campaign would have us believe and on the balance of expert opinion (academics, business leaders and military) our economy and security are better served by staying in.
http://www.nccr-democracy.uzh.ch/publications/work...
Evidence shows there is more engagement from the youth in Switzerland to the Netherlands. This is attributed to Switzerland's direct democracy.
For me, the causality between engagement and personal effort does not need proving, it's obvious. What I am saying is that as an individual feel if you can influence you will put more effort in.
Sovereignty, the right to make the laws that affect us, needs to be something we can all influence and access.
The EU is the antipathy of this. The governmental structure of it is closer to autocracy than democracy. This is how the USSR started. History has shown that this method of governance does not work. The demos becomes disenfranchised when they have no say and what happens from there is self evident.
Where people cannot shape their own lives, they do not try.
Edit to add:
What mechanism does the EU allow that can allow our government to initiate reform? None.
There's a simple answer, and from this uncomfortable answer follows a number of symptoms.
- Greece still being in the Euro zone
- Massive youth unemployment across the EU
- CAP reforms that were paid for but never delivered
In a democratic society, the demos would not accept this, indeed Greece voted against it but then regime change occurred.
Edited by John145 on Monday 20th June 13:49
AJL308 said:
dirty boy said:
AJL308 said:
lostkiwi said:
Beati Dogu said:
dirty boy said:
Same idiots running our country as in Brussels, just with a different language, so it's a choice that's not as straight forward as you make it sound. We're not 'governed' by Brussels it's just a place where 27 countries come together and agree on stuff after a lot of twoing and froing to ensure all are happy.
People like you frighten me. The majority of our laws and regulation come direct from the EU. By any definition, we are government by the EU.There are two main types of EU 'laws'.
Regulations which are where we are told how to do something
Directives which are guidance on what to do but have flexibilty as to how (i.e. we choose what law to pass and how to phrase it to accomplish something).
In terms of regulations 28% of our laws come from regulations.
Your statement 'most of' is only true if you include Directives (which we actually draft ourselves).
EU law is supreme law of the EU. Fact.
I don't want that. I want laws made in Westminster to be the supreme law of the UK.
Anyone who cannot agree to the statement "I want the supreme law of the UK to be made in Brussels by people who are citizens of foreign nations" MUST vote leave.
Playing devil's advocate here, but what makes the will of Westminster better than the will of combined nations? Surely the greater the demographic, by its very nature, the more democratic it is? One head is better than two etc?
I've always been told, "No matter how right you think you are, no matter how you can't possibly think you are wrong and someone else is, it doesn't mean you are right" and I always try to remember that.
PS Beati Dogu, I'm just an accountant with a wife and two children, please don't be frightened, I'm not exactly scary or a complete retard with no comprehension on these matters, merely offering a point of view (not even necessarily an opinion).
Jinx said:
Have you read the Lisbon treaty?
No. Does it insist on the dissolution of all member state parliaments then? Our parliament allows the EU to make certain laws, not every law will favour the UK but that's the price for being in the club. The bigger myth is that somehow those laws favour everyone else and that we get a comparatively bad deal. We are one of the big three, in a position to shape and influence one of the prime global institutions.Blue62 said:
No. Does it insist on the dissolution of all member state parliaments then? Our parliament allows the EU to make certain laws, not every law will favour the UK but that's the price for being in the club. The bigger myth is that somehow those laws favour everyone else and that we get a comparatively bad deal. We are one of the big three, in a position to shape and influence one of the prime global institutions.
Can we stop allowing the EU to make these certain laws and remain in the EU?Blue62 said:
Jinx said:
Have you read the Lisbon treaty?
No. Does it insist on the dissolution of all member state parliaments then? Our parliament allows the EU to make certain laws, not every law will favour the UK but that's the price for being in the club. The bigger myth is that somehow those laws favour everyone else and that we get a comparatively bad deal. We are one of the big three, in a position to shape and influence one of the prime global institutions.Cameron came back from the EU with nothing before the referendum started, if the UK had any real influence perhaps he would have been more successful.
This surprised me:
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/14566828.Arg...
"Results of a survey on the Argus website showed 67.7 per cent were planning on voting to leave the union later this week – more than twice as many of those who supported remaining within Europe at 29.7 per cent. The remaining 2.6 per cent of the 1,336 participants did not specify how they would vote. "
I was led to believe that Wales was pretty pro EU but it seems maybe not. I know nothing about the South Wales Argos though so maybe its readership is atypical of Wales as a whole.
Anyway I hope you all get what you wanted on Friday, providing what you wanted is OUT!
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/14566828.Arg...
"Results of a survey on the Argus website showed 67.7 per cent were planning on voting to leave the union later this week – more than twice as many of those who supported remaining within Europe at 29.7 per cent. The remaining 2.6 per cent of the 1,336 participants did not specify how they would vote. "
I was led to believe that Wales was pretty pro EU but it seems maybe not. I know nothing about the South Wales Argos though so maybe its readership is atypical of Wales as a whole.
Anyway I hope you all get what you wanted on Friday, providing what you wanted is OUT!
el stovey said:
Blue62 said:
Jinx said:
Have you read the Lisbon treaty?
No. Does it insist on the dissolution of all member state parliaments then? Our parliament allows the EU to make certain laws, not every law will favour the UK but that's the price for being in the club. The bigger myth is that somehow those laws favour everyone else and that we get a comparatively bad deal. We are one of the big three, in a position to shape and influence one of the prime global institutions.Cameron came back from the EU with nothing before the referendum started, if the UK had any real influence perhaps he would have been more successful.
fatjon said:
This surprised me:
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/14566828.Arg...
"Results of a survey on the Argus website showed 67.7 per cent were planning on voting to leave the union later this week – more than twice as many of those who supported remaining within Europe at 29.7 per cent. The remaining 2.6 per cent of the 1,336 participants did not specify how they would vote. "
I was led to believe that Wales was pretty pro EU but it seems maybe not. I know nothing about the South Wales Argos though so maybe its readership is atypical of Wales as a whole.
Anyway I hope you all get what you wanted on Friday, providing what you wanted is OUT!
South Wales ( like most of Wales ) is Labour voting.http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/14566828.Arg...
"Results of a survey on the Argus website showed 67.7 per cent were planning on voting to leave the union later this week – more than twice as many of those who supported remaining within Europe at 29.7 per cent. The remaining 2.6 per cent of the 1,336 participants did not specify how they would vote. "
I was led to believe that Wales was pretty pro EU but it seems maybe not. I know nothing about the South Wales Argos though so maybe its readership is atypical of Wales as a whole.
Anyway I hope you all get what you wanted on Friday, providing what you wanted is OUT!
There's a liberal left leaning clique in London who read the Guardian, run the BBC and think that they represent the views of those voting Labour in the UK. They don't.
I suspect the same situation may be repeated in the North of England.
The 6m migrants coming over the next 15 years are coming to take mainly blue collar jobs. Why is the BBC/ Guardian so surprised that voters in these areas are less than keen on the idea?
John145 said:
The EU is the antipathy of this. The governmental structure of it is closer to autocracy than democracy. This is how the USSR started. History has shown that this method of governance does not work. The demos becomes disenfranchised when they have no say and what happens from there is self evident.
Where people cannot shape their own lives, they do not try.
So which part of the EU structure is autocratic as opposed to being democratically elected either directly or indirectly by representatives of the people?Where people cannot shape their own lives, they do not try.
Each institution is explained here:
http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/
John145 said:
Edit to add:
What mechanism does the EU allow that can allow our government to initiate reform? None.
There's a simple answer, and from this uncomfortable answer follows a number of symptoms.
- Greece still being in the Euro zone
- Massive youth unemployment across the EU
- CAP reforms that were paid for but never delivered
In a democratic society, the demos would not accept this, indeed Greece voted against it but then regime change occurred.
See above but to give another example.What mechanism does the EU allow that can allow our government to initiate reform? None.
There's a simple answer, and from this uncomfortable answer follows a number of symptoms.
- Greece still being in the Euro zone
- Massive youth unemployment across the EU
- CAP reforms that were paid for but never delivered
In a democratic society, the demos would not accept this, indeed Greece voted against it but then regime change occurred.
Edited by John145 on Monday 20th June 13:49
Unemployment in the North of England is much worse than the south. Should the South therefore leave and form its own government independent of the North?
Maybe we should kick parts of the country like the North East and Northern Ireland out as they are dragging us all down.
dirty boy said:
Perhaps if there wasn't a referendum pending compromising it? Bit like asking for a pay rise but telling your boss you might leave next week anyway.
Democracies reform through public mandate.Corporations reform due to existential threat.
The EU falls comfortably into the latter.
lostkiwi said:
John145 said:
The EU is the antipathy of this. The governmental structure of it is closer to autocracy than democracy. This is how the USSR started. History has shown that this method of governance does not work. The demos becomes disenfranchised when they have no say and what happens from there is self evident.
Where people cannot shape their own lives, they do not try.
So which part of the EU structure is autocratic as opposed to being democratically elected either directly or indirectly by representatives of the people?Where people cannot shape their own lives, they do not try.
Each institution is explained here:
http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/
John145 said:
Edit to add:
What mechanism does the EU allow that can allow our government to initiate reform? None.
There's a simple answer, and from this uncomfortable answer follows a number of symptoms.
- Greece still being in the Euro zone
- Massive youth unemployment across the EU
- CAP reforms that were paid for but never delivered
In a democratic society, the demos would not accept this, indeed Greece voted against it but then regime change occurred.
See above but to give another example.What mechanism does the EU allow that can allow our government to initiate reform? None.
There's a simple answer, and from this uncomfortable answer follows a number of symptoms.
- Greece still being in the Euro zone
- Massive youth unemployment across the EU
- CAP reforms that were paid for but never delivered
In a democratic society, the demos would not accept this, indeed Greece voted against it but then regime change occurred.
Edited by John145 on Monday 20th June 13:49
Unemployment in the North of England is much worse than the south. Should the South therefore leave and form its own government independent of the North?
Maybe we should kick parts of the country like the North East and Northern Ireland out as they are dragging us all down.
I formally note the undertaking of each Member State to respect this principle and not to seek to influence Members of the Commission in the performance of their tasks. I further undertake to respect, both during and after my term of office, the obligation arising therefrom, and in particular the duty to behave with integrity and discretion as regards the acceptance, after I have ceased to hold office, of certain appointments or benefits."
You have to love democracy.
Please advise me the democratic method for sacking Jean Claud Junker.
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