Results

[Blayney]

sidicks said:

Blayney said:

Maybe he's saying it based off his personal experience?

Of the leave voters I was able to speak to in work on Friday the majority of them cited immigration and the NHS as the reasons they voted leave.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that that small sample is statistically relevant though.

Being concerned about uncontrolled immigration is certainly not xenophobic!

I agree it's not. But trust me these people, who I work with day in day out, are indeed xenophobic. Like I said though I'm not going to pretend they represent every Leave voter.

[PositronicRay]

hedgefinder said:

405dogvan said:

"Here you are Boris - you fked it, you give it the reacharound" is the only negotiation left surely?

I maintain all this "sovereignty" argument IS xenophobic - let alone the glaring fact that the majority of people voted to over immigration which is about as xenophobic as it's possible to be.

Maybe you saw this just as a "we're tired of the way the EU works" - that isn't how it's coming-across tho, I do not belive for a second that's what people voted for.

Leave is even anti-British ofc - because it almost certainly means the end of Britain so we should probably just say "proud to be English(Welsh)" and be done with it?

excuse me for asking, but how the fk do you know the definative reason that the majority of people voted to opt out?
Its already been shown several times that polls are about as reliable and as much use as a chocolate tampon, and the press serve their own agenda....anything to sell papers...and the BBC has hardly ever been anything but one sided.
Just because the press makes a big deal of certain issues doesnt make it so, even when it does suit your argument.
I know many many people who voted out and of them not one voted on immigration issues alone. Anyone who thinks that the majority of the rest of the country is racist purely because they didnt vote the way they wished is quite obviously an idiot.

Racist or not, the referendum was won on immigration. Plenty of other reasons people voted, but without the immigration thing it wouldn't have swung it.

Nigel Farage was quite right about that one.

[Murph7355]

Blue62 said:

Of course there's a plan, it's to make Britain great again and get back control! It can't fail because we are a nation of hard working entrepreneurs, held back by those nasty bureaucrats in Brussels for all these years, just watch this country fly now that the shackles are off.....

Remain or Leave if people are intent on sniping and bickering at each other and moaning about their lot, then we stand not one chance in hell of doing anything. Doesn't matter whether you're SNP, some disaffected youth, a big cheese in a big business or a poster on a car forum.

This, in my opinion, is what has eroded this country's belief in itself, and once you start to lose that, you're on a slippery slope.

I do not think 52:48 is a particularly decisive result (though with the amount of firepower that was thrown at Remain, and the fact that having been in the EU for 40yrs the benefits should be so obvious this referendum should have been a walk over speaks volumes). But we all now need to pull together and get this country back on the road. Just as we would have done if the same result had happened but for Remain.

All this whining is simply wasted energy. Energy that could be used forging a path forwards for ourselves.

Whether we were a catalyst or not I do not know, but the EU itself is screwed IMO. Look at the polls of people's views across the continent. It's fading. We need to knuckle under and get ourselves in as strong a position as we can before the frankly inevitable happens in the EU. Only by being strong will we be able to help with whatever happens over the water.

[wilwak]

Murph7355 said:

Remain or Leave if people are intent on sniping and bickering at each other and moaning about their lot, then we stand not one chance in hell of doing anything. Doesn't matter whether you're SNP, some disaffected youth, a big cheese in a big business or a poster on a car forum.

This, in my opinion, is what has eroded this country's belief in itself, and once you start to lose that, you're on a slippery slope.

I do not think 52:48 is a particularly decisive result (though with the amount of firepower that was thrown at Remain, and the fact that having been in the EU for 40yrs the benefits should be so obvious this referendum should have been a walk over speaks volumes). But we all now need to pull together and get this country back on the road. Just as we would have done if the same result had happened but for Remain.

All this whining is simply wasted energy. Energy that could be used forging a path forwards for ourselves.

Whether we were a catalyst or not I do not know, but the EU itself is screwed IMO. Look at the polls of people's views across the continent. It's fading. We need to knuckle under and get ourselves in as strong a position as we can before the frankly inevitable happens in the EU. Only by being strong will we be able to help with whatever happens over the water.

Well said.

[Blue62]

Einion Yrth said:

Probably no worse either, and at least they'll have some say in who governs them.

So you accept the premise, that's telling. They will have as much say in who governs as they did before, the sovereignty argument is one of the greatest lies, but notwithstanding, most of those people don't vote in general elections and are no more likely to do so now. They will be less well off because they will bear the brunt of the inevitable cuts that will follow the inevitable downturn.

[alfie2244]

"Prophetess Vanga, or Baba Vanga as she is known on the Balkans..... The prophetess was right for many calls she made during her life, and if her prophecy is true, next year we will see the end of Europe as we know it"

2016 – According to Vanga, in 2016 Europe will cease to exist. The continent will lose almost all of its population and the developing countries will transform to exploiters.

http://www.documentarytube.com/articles/europe-wil...

[FiF]

RYH64E said:

It's my belief that the popular vote was heavily influenced by claims such as £350m/week that could go to the NHS, out of control immigration, and 'they need us more than we need them', those issues appealed very strongly to a particular sector of the community and that's where a lot of the votes came from. I'm not saying that those were the only issues and I do accept that many people had very principled objections to the EU, but not enough to secure a majority. A large proportion of Leave votes came from people who believed the nonsense they were told and are likely to be very disappointed when the promised nirvana fails to materialise.

I'm sure you are right and I completely don't support some of the messages which were out there.

Equally if you can deal with your bias for a moment, let's suppose Remain had won. There would be people who had voted for that option on the basis that they wanted full on political and fiscal union, others who were happier for ever closer union but at a slow pace, some others who voted on the basis of it's ok as it is now but no more, then others who recognise it needs a bit of reform, others who think it's as bit poor frankly and needs a thorough shake up, and some who think it's a total crap fest but couldn't vote for Leave due to a zillion reasons from they like lower roaming charges, through wanting to take their dogs on holiday, to fear of the absolute twaddle scare stories Remain peddled and threatened everyone with, plus some who just looked at their own parochial situation and voted that way.

So Remain has won, how are you going to rationalise that little lot when the EU did whatever it was going to anyway. What's that quote from JCJ?

Personally I wouldn't have whined about it, but like in 1975, accepted the result and got on with life.

[Blue62]

Murph7355 said:

Remain or Leave if people are intent on sniping and bickering at each other and moaning about their lot, then we stand not one chance in hell of doing anything. Doesn't matter whether you're SNP, some disaffected youth, a big cheese in a big business or a poster on a car forum.

This, in my opinion, is what has eroded this country's belief in itself, and once you start to lose that, you're on a slippery slope.

I do not think 52:48 is a particularly decisive result (though with the amount of firepower that was thrown at Remain, and the fact that having been in the EU for 40yrs the benefits should be so obvious this referendum should have been a walk over speaks volumes). But we all now need to pull together and get this country back on the road. Just as we would have done if the same result had happened but for Remain.

All this whining is simply wasted energy. Energy that could be used forging a path forwards for ourselves.

Whether we were a catalyst or not I do not know, but the EU itself is screwed IMO. Look at the polls of people's views across the continent. It's fading. We need to knuckle under and get ourselves in as strong a position as we can before the frankly inevitable happens in the EU. Only by being strong will we be able to help with whatever happens over the water.

Churchillian, I feel so much safer now, thanks.

[FiF]

GhostDriver said:

Yup and a large amount of stay campaigners voted because they believed the UK could reform the EU and stop the march to a federal Europe, control immigration, set aside the Turkey/German deal, cut red tape and bureaucracy, there is sillyness on both sides, which I think is what FiF was getting at.

Yes exactly, thank you for putting that much more succinctly than I.

[Eric Mc]

Some of the rhetoric reminds me of this -

[wilwak]

405dogvan said:

Why not be properly British and go abroad, steal everything to ship back here, enslave all the people and appoint yourself Emperor? ;0

We buy 9 times more than we sell - you'll need to do better than a pack of beers and some apples (UK apples that are barely in season and in a few months you'll be down to a spuds and cabbage diet)

and since we're on a motoring forum, do buy a completely British made car and run it on completely made British Fuel (impossible?) - don't go electric obv because there are no British companies supplying that...

Very witty reply indeed. Thanks.

I've read that GDP may fall by 3%.

Slightly changing the shopping habits of a proportion 60 million people could certainly help counter that.

We've got some tough times ahead and what else can I do to help? Nothing. So I'll do what I can.

I'm sipping a British beer knowing that last week it would have been an overseas one. Makes me feel better anyway.

[poo at Paul's]

405dogvan said:

This "it's over, move on" mentality can fk off tho - unless you mean "move on to a country not filled with ignorant, selfish xenophobes " in which case it's an option for-sure.

Edited by 405dogvan on Saturday 25th June 16:24

Good luck with that, I would avoid anywhere in Europe if I were you though, you know, to avoid the racists and Xenophobes.

What a melodramatic pussy! Britain really wont miss you.

[Stickyfinger]

Soviet (it would be more correct to say, anti-Soviet) bureaucratism is the product of social contradictions between the city and the village, between the proletariat and the peasantry (these two kinds of contradictions are not identical), between the national republics and districts, between the different groups of peasantry, between the different layers of the working class, between the different groups of consumers and, finally, between the Soviet state as a whole and its capitalist environment. Today, when all relationships are being translated into the language of monetary calculation, the economic contradictions come to the forefront with exceptional sharpness.

Raising itself above the toiling masses, the bureaucracy regulates these contradictions. It uses this function in order to strengthen its own domination. By its uncontrolled and self-willed rule, subject to no appeal, the bureaucracy accumulates new contradictions. Exploiting the latter, it creates the regime of bureaucratic absolutism.

The contradictions within the bureaucracy itself have led to a system of handpicking the main commanding staff; the need for discipline within the select order has led to the rule of a single person and to the cult of the infallible leader. One and the same system prevails in factory, kolkhoz, university and the government: a leader stands at the head of his faithful troop; the rest follow the leader. Stalin never was and, by his nature, never could be a leader of masses; he is the leader of bureaucratic “leaders,” their consummation, their personification.

The more complex the economic tasks become, the greater the demands and the interests of the population become, all the more sharp becomes the contradiction between the bureaucratic regime and the demands of socialist development, all the more coarsely does the bureaucracy struggle to preserve its positions, all the more cynically does it resort to violence, fraud and bribery.




rings a few bells....

[johnxjsc1985]

wilwak said:

Very witty reply indeed. Thanks.

I've read that GDP may fall by 3%.

Slightly changing the shopping habits of a proportion 60 million people could certainly help counter that.

We've got some tough times ahead and what else can I do to help? Nothing. So I'll do what I can.

I'm sipping a British beer knowing that last week it would have been an overseas one. Makes me feel better anyway.

We can make a difference I can still remember the "I am buying British" campaign. Have people forgotten the disaster of the ERM and SKY HIGH interest rates High unemployment and Unions that could bring the Country to a standstill we have been through far worse than this and we will as we always do come out of it stronger.

[Oakey]

Eric Mc said:

Some of the rhetoric reminds me of this -

It took me few seconds to process that this wasn't a soldier surfing a whale

[danllama]

TheSleepingCat said:

danllama said:

Definitely feeling a bit lighter on my feet.

That would be your wallet being a bit more empty!

I did have a rather large and extended celebration

[Murph7355]

Blue62 said:

Churchillian, I feel so much safer now, thanks.

You keep dripping away. It's a well known solution to doing well.

The only thing that would make you feel better is if the result had gone the way you voted. It didn't.

[poo at Paul's]

s3fella said:

Kolbenkopp said:

Yeah she's been trying to calm the people and calls for a reasoned approach. Quite her usual style, and sure she did not like the way the DAX was going today.

But question: why should she or the EU make any special offers to rejoin? Or to help ease the leaving? The concessions negotiable have been made before the referendum. UK Voters have decided that's not enough and wanted out. End of story.

Merkel knows that a lot of the reason for this vote is down to her.

UK buys 1 in 5 cars made in Germany, we are their largest single country for buying their cars.

She knows that the workers Unions wont want to get into a tariff ware with UK.

Realistically, all we need is Germany and France "on board" to a degree. And bureacracy aside, providing in the short terms any tarrifs imposed is countered by a devaluation in the £, the actual effect on exports will be minimal. And larger tax take from import tariffs will lessen the burden on industry and allow tax reductions to take place, increasing profits and countering the effect of higher import costs.

We are the second largest contributor to the EU, after Germany. But we have a balance of trade deficit with Germany, so they need us as much as we need them, and their EU bill will be going up by £3bn when we leave, so they need our continued trade.

It may all seem doom and gloom to some and a little theoretical, but all we need is Germany and maybe France to play ball a bit and we will be fine. No one gives two sts what Belgium think about it all, and I include the Germans and French in that. They are a nothing nation in the EU economically, everyone knows it. So we will get bluster from the likes of Junker, who will posture like a spoilt little kid, but to make up the losses from the £10BN or so we stick in the pot, they will need to carry on trading with us.

With the reports of Junker and cos saying pack your bags etc, it is time for reflection and a measured approach. There is nothing legally binding in our referendum, until Article 50 is invoked, we ares till int he EU, and they cannot throw us out. So let them bluster, let them get all emotional, let them call us names and say how they never liked us.

Then let them realise what we contribute and what we will contrinue to contribute, let them relalise our Intelligence Services are the best out there and they have massive problems with extremism on their own doorsteps, and let them realise that the European dream they pedal would not even be a possibility without the efforts of our forefathers, and they may just all relaise we aren't so bad, as we realise they aren't.

Take the emotion out of it all, and it really isn't as dire as some prophesise.

Edited by s3fella on Saturday 25th June 09:56

Looks like you guys may be correct.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36630326

[vonuber]

I'm really coming around to the idea that gove et al never thought that leave would win by 4% (the farage it's not settled margin) and thus don't have a clue what to do.
I suspect they thought they could have used a close vote to put pressure on cameron. Now they know the next leader is basically getting a huge poisoned chalice.

I suspect we will go the Norway route to be honest.

[turbobloke]

poo at Paul's said:

Looks like you guys may be correct.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36630326

So Merkel says 'no need to be nasty' in leaving talks, as she's now paying the piper almost single-handedly she'll get to call the tune. Nothing too new about that.