Results

[Blue Oval84]

mybrainhurts said:

Great idea. Let's do that for every general election from now on.

I think you'll find a GE is very different in nature to this decision, this is a one off, GE you get a chance to vote them out in five years.

[markcoznottz]

Mario149 said:

Blue Oval84 said:

Just throwing this out there, a lot of people keep referring to the "will of the people" etc. but do we think that all 52% still think the same way today as they did on Thursday?

It seems to me, anecdotally, that there are quite a few of them who now think they were lied to "let's spend £350m on the NHS", "let's stop immigration" (it doesn't matter that it's not quite what was said, that was what they heard).

Now that they're waking up to some serious uncertainty, Downing St admitting it has no plan for this eventuality, Bo Jo himself looking like he didn't really want this outcome, admissions from Nigel Farrage that the NHS thing was "a mistake", and from Danial Hannan that they shouldn't expect us not to be accepting some free movement of people, do we honestly think all 52% are happy with the way they voted?

I think the government could quite easily get away with not implementing article 50 at this rate and, without having a sort of "are you sure you're sure?" referendum, it would be very hard to keep a straight face and say that all 52% are still in favour of leaving.

This^^. I know I'm biased as a Remainer, but I do genuinely think that in the last 48 hours or so when the ramifications of what has been voted for have started to become apparent, there are a statistically significant number of people who voted Leave who'd probably give a different Ref answer today than on Thursday as they were "soft" (i.e. it was a close run thing for them) Leavers. Conversely if you were a "soft" Remainer, I can't see anything that would push you the other way as I've seen literally no good short term news. And that doesn't even account for what I imagine would be a larger youth turnout and likely great Remain vote now that a great many of them would realise they can't be lazy and expect everything to be fine.

Just because the establishment are like headless chickens does not excuse them from thier responsibilities. Why bother with a referendum (the cost??) if no one acts on it. Like a few people have said, if we fudge and status quo it, the fundamental reasons we voted out are still there? Bunch of third grade art graduates. Only days before the result Cameron was telling lies about turkey, same old same old.

[tenfour]

227bhp said:

The Germans don't seem to be very happy do they? I suppose it is the third time they've tried to take over Europe and been scuppered by us.

They can't help it. It's the beach towel mentality.

[Mario149]

mybrainhurts said:

Blue Oval84 said:

///ajd said:

when the outcome will be so far from the promises, a referendum on are you sure seems entirely appropriate.

Yes, I think what I'm getting at is that the way I understand it, this referendum was nothing more than an opinion poll, the government is not legally obliged to carry it out (even though they said they would)

If they ran their opinion poll again today I think it would at least have swung 52/48 the other way, if not an overwhelming majority for remain.

Great idea. Let's do that for every general election from now on.

If GEs weren't legally binding, I think we would - elected party bins part of their manifesto etc a few days in, trigger re-run etc. But since they are and the referendum wasn't, it's not a valid comparison.

[davepoth]

philv said:

Seriously, i had no idea how to vote or the true reprucussions.
I am reasonably well educated, worked and lived all over the world.

What the heck do I know?
Or anyone else for that matter?

I read. I read and I read and I read. Papers by Jean Monnet from the 50s, texts of treaties, dry European directives, pamphlets, platforms, manifestos, brochures, reports. I felt I was about as well informed about the issue as I could be.

And in the end it came down to one thing - my heart. I know this country, and I know that in difficult times we don't turn in like everyone has been warning - we turn out.

The spring of 1940, I don't think many countries thought we'd win the war. We did, mainly through bloody-mindedness.

Everyone has been talking about how the country was lessened after the end of empire. I put the date of it to 1952, the Suez crisis. But just 15 years later the UK had established a new empire - pop culture.

In the mid 70s we were written off as the sick man of Europe. 15 years after that? The "Big Bang" came and all of a sudden London was a global financial centre.

If there's any country in the world which can make this work, it's us.

[steveatesh]

Blue Oval84 said:

///ajd said:

when the outcome will be so far from the promises, a referendum on are you sure seems entirely appropriate.

Yes, I think what I'm getting at is that the way I understand it, this referendum was nothing more than an opinion poll, the government is not legally obliged to carry it out (even though they said they would)

If they ran their opinion poll again today I think it would at least have swung 52/48 the other way, if not an overwhelming majority for remain.

It was an instruction from the people to leave the EU. Not constitutionally binding but nevertheless given the vote to leave was allegedly driven by a lot of voters fed up with the elites and wanting to give them a metaphorical bloody nose, the elites would be even more stupid by going back on the promise to honour the result.

The official Vote Leave campaign were not in any position to make promises of any description, they said a lot of ste as did the remain campaign. It is, in my view irrelevant that what they said was ste, in my view they had their campaign and the public responded. Some voters are having buyers remorse but that is not unusual.

The best thing the media could do is accept the outcome and move on with it rather than running the country down. Nobody knows at this stage how the negotiations will pan out, looks like they have the two options of negotiating a path like Flexcit with access to the single market and more control over immigration, or have full control over immigration and lose access to the single market.

If there was to be another referendum (which in my view is unlikely but everything is possible as we now know) then it should be simply which of the two paths should we as a nation take to leave the EU.

Those who prefer to keep access to the single market and give up some control of immigration can vote that way. The others can vote their way. I suspect that there will be a huge majority in favour of keeping access to the single market and that will then provide the necessary instruction in a democratic way.

The first thing that needs to happen though is for some of the remain voters to accept the democratic result of this referendum, and that includes the media.

[Mario149]

markcoznottz said:

Just because the establishment are like headless chickens does not excuse them from thier responsibilities. Why bother with a referendum (the cost??) if no one acts on it. Like a few people have said, if we fudge and status quo it, the fundamental reasons we voted out are still there? Bunch of third grade art graduates. Only days before the result Cameron was telling lies about turkey, same old same old.

The Ref was purely about Tory internal politics, it had precious little, if anything to do with acting on what the electorate wanted. DC was effectively spending public money in a new and interesting way to get the Tories re-elected.

[turbobloke]

Mario149 said:

markcoznottz said:

Just because the establishment are like headless chickens does not excuse them from thier responsibilities. Why bother with a referendum (the cost??) if no one acts on it. Like a few people have said, if we fudge and status quo it, the fundamental reasons we voted out are still there? Bunch of third grade art graduates. Only days before the result Cameron was telling lies about turkey, same old same old.

The Ref was purely about Tory internal politics, it had precious little, if anything to do with acting on what the electorate wanted. DC was effectively spending public money in a new and interesting way to get the Tories re-elected.

CMD is guilty of a series of massive misjudgements.

If it was in any way about abuse of public bodies to get re-elected then as a Conservative voter I would condemn it in the strongest possible terms and that would be another CMD misjudgement beyond the others.

[Blue Oval84]

Einion Yrth said:

Blue Oval84 said:

I think

Evidence, please.

I'm just quoting a personal opinion for discussion, I don't need to provide evidence for that.

If I had said "it would definitely have changed" then you may have a point.

[handpaper]

Blue Oval84 said:

Just throwing this out there, a lot of people keep referring to the "will of the people" etc. but do we think that all 52% still think the same way today as they did on Thursday?

It seems to me, anecdotally, that there are quite a few of them who now think they were lied to "let's spend £350m on the NHS", "let's stop immigration" (it doesn't matter that it's not quite what was said, that was what they heard).

Now that they're waking up to some serious uncertainty, Downing St admitting it has no plan for this eventuality, Bo Jo himself looking like he didn't really want this outcome, admissions from Nigel Farage that the NHS thing was "a mistake", and from Daniel Hannan that they shouldn't expect us not to be accepting some free movement of people, do we honestly think all 52% are happy with the way they voted?

I think the government could quite easily get away with not implementing article 50 at this rate and, without having a sort of "are you sure you're sure?" referendum, it would be very hard to keep a straight face and say that all 52% are still in favour of leaving.

And how many Remain voters do you think were appraised of the full nature of the UK's relationship with the EU, both now and in the future?
I'm not going to speculate on what proportion of Remain/Leave voters were entirely mistaken in the means by which they came to their decisions, but given the amount of sheer twaddle spouted by both sides it would seem reasonable to consider that a number would have voted differently if they didn't think, for example, that they wouldn't be able to holiday in Spain or that that nice Polish chap in the petrol station would be deported.

The Irish initially voted against the Lisbon Treaty and after being subjected to a barrage of fearmongering and propaganda, voted again to accept it. I'm not sure how much doom an In campaign have left with which to scare the British people into changing their vote.

[Einion Yrth]

Blue Oval84 said:

Einion Yrth said:

Blue Oval84 said:

I think

Evidence, please.

I'm just quoting a personal opinion for discussion, I don't need to provide evidence for that.

If I had said "it would definitely have changed" then you may have a point.

Referenda are expensive, we just held one. The majority chose to leave the EU.
If the result had been the other way I'd have just got on with my life, might I suggest you do the same.

[Hosenbugler]

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A bit boring, I know, but for me, thats it. Sorry

[LittleEnus]

steveatesh said:

It was an instruction from the people to leave the EU. Not constitutionally binding but nevertheless given the vote to leave was allegedly driven by a lot of voters fed up with the elites and wanting to give them a metaphorical bloody nose, the elites would be even more stupid by going back on the promise to honour the result.

The official Vote Leave campaign were not in any position to make promises of any description, they said a lot of ste as did the remain campaign. It is, in my view irrelevant that what they said was ste, in my view they had their campaign and the public responded. Some voters are having buyers remorse but that is not unusual.

The best thing the media could do is accept the outcome and move on with it rather than running the country down. Nobody knows at this stage how the negotiations will pan out, looks like they have the two options of negotiating a path like Flexcit with access to the single market and more control over immigration, or have full control over immigration and lose access to the single market.

If there was to be another referendum (which in my view is unlikely but everything is possible as we now know) then it should be simply which of the two paths should we as a nation take to leave the EU.

Those who prefer to keep access to the single market and give up some control of immigration can vote that way. The others can vote their way. I suspect that there will be a huge majority in favour of keeping access to the single market and that will then provide the necessary instruction in a democratic way.

The first thing that needs to happen though is for some of the remain voters to accept the democratic result of this referendum, and that includes the media.

Well said sir

[ThunderGuts]

Blue Oval84 said:

mybrainhurts said:

Great idea. Let's do that for every general election from now on.

I think you'll find a GE is very different in nature to this decision, this is a one off, GE you get a chance to vote them out in five years.

It's not a one-off if you re-run it!

[Blue Oval84]

steveatesh said:

It was an instruction from the people to leave the EU. Not constitutionally binding but nevertheless given the vote to leave was allegedly driven by a lot of voters fed up with the elites and wanting to give them a metaphorical bloody nose, the elites would be even more stupid by going back on the promise to honour the result.

...

The best thing the media could do is accept the outcome and move on with it rather than running the country down. Nobody knows at this stage how the negotiations will pan out, looks like they have the two options of negotiating a path like Flexcit with access to the single market and more control over immigration, or have full control over immigration and lose access to the single market.

If there was to be another referendum (which in my view is unlikely but everything is possible as we now know) then it should be simply which of the two paths should we as a nation take to leave the EU.

Yes I agree largely with all of that. I would just say that although the instruction was given by the public it appears that perhaps some of them did so based on some total BS pledges (they should have known better but there you go, such is life)

Therefore once the dust has settled and we know the actual score, I don't think that it's just safe to say "the public want out at any cost because they told us so on Thursday". I don't perceive that the leave vote gives them that mandate.

In case anyone else asks for evidence, all of the above is my personal opinion. I'm not commissioning a poll to keep PH happy

[ThunderGuts]

LittleEnus said:

steveatesh said:

Lots of words

Well said sir

I agree (saying this as a Remainer too)

[Robertj21a]

Blue Oval84 said:

Is it not slightly different when the campaign you have voted for come out on TV the very next morning and say "oh yes, that point we campaigned on was totally wrong"?

If I buy a new car and it doesn't perform as I'd hoped over a few years, I can always change it. Slightly different if I buy a new car that I'm basically stuck with for life and the next morning the salesman says "oh yeah, the brochure's wrong by the way, it doesn't have the features you expected".

I really do see both sides to this one.

Has a Delusion Virus suddenly hit the UK ?

All this waffle about the Referendum being ignored, democracy being ignored, conspiracy theories re Section 50 etc etc. Just read it back yourselves, do you honestly think anything like that is going to happen ? - Really ?

[Blue Oval84]

Einion Yrth said:

Referenda are expensive, we just held one. The majority chose to leave the EU.
If the result had been the other way I'd have just got on with my life, might I suggest you do the same.

I voted leave.

If however we end up in a position where the government realises that an EFTA deal can't be negotiated, I don't want them to say "fk it, let's crash the country because we were told to".

[kurt535]

Result is economy is f**ked.

Can't see another referendum taking place though. Don't feel everything is as cut and dried though. I'm holding out for a hybrid model agreement with EU otherwise NZ/Canada/Oz here my family comes next year. House goes on the market end of next week and I will take a loss to reduce exposure to our economy.

[turbobloke]

Blue Oval84 said:

I think you'll find a GE is very different in nature to this decision, this is a one off, GE you get a chance to vote them out in five years.

And I think you'll find there have been no politicians' names on a UK referendum ballot paper. It's certainly true for at least the last three I've voted in.

There are lots of differences, so what?

And as somebody already rightly pointed out it's not a one-off if you re-run it for which there is no basis.