Results

[Mario149]

turbobloke said:

Mario149 said:

markcoznottz said:

Just because the establishment are like headless chickens does not excuse them from thier responsibilities. Why bother with a referendum (the cost??) if no one acts on it. Like a few people have said, if we fudge and status quo it, the fundamental reasons we voted out are still there? Bunch of third grade art graduates. Only days before the result Cameron was telling lies about turkey, same old same old.

The Ref was purely about Tory internal politics, it had precious little, if anything to do with acting on what the electorate wanted. DC was effectively spending public money in a new and interesting way to get the Tories re-elected.

CMD is guilty of a series of massive misjudgements.

If it was in any way about abuse of public bodies to get re-elected then as a Conservative voter I would condemn it in the strongest possible terms and that would be another CMD misjudgement beyond the others.

So are you condemning it or not? I don't think anyone seriously thinks that the referendum would have been in the manifesto if it wasn't desperately needed (or perceived to be needed at the time) to get the Tories elected. Ergo, it was never really about giving people a choice.

[turbobloke]

kurt535 said:

Result is economy is f**ked.

Three days later you know this? Amazing.

You could also check it out in a couple of years.

[steveatesh]

Einion Yrth said:

Blue Oval84 said:

Einion Yrth said:

Blue Oval84 said:

I think

Evidence, please.

I'm just quoting a personal opinion for discussion, I don't need to provide evidence for that.

If I had said "it would definitely have changed" then you may have a point.

Referenda are expensive, we just held one. The majority chose to leave the EU.
If the result had been the other way I'd have just got on with my life, might I suggest you do the same.

Must confess EY I didn't think Blues post was whinging or moaning about the result, he appeared to be merely raising a discussion point in the spirit of this thread. There have been a lot worse throughout the campaign. Now ///ajd is another matter......
Still have a to celebrate democracy for three days up to now.....

[Einion Yrth]

kurt535 said:

Result is economy is f**ked.

Can't see another referendum taking place though. Don't feel everything is as cut and dried though. I'm holding out for a hybrid model agreement with EU otherwise NZ/Canada/Oz here my family comes next year. House goes on the market end of next week and I will take a loss to reduce exposure to our economy.

Get a grip.

[Blue Oval84]

turbobloke said:

And as somebody already rightly pointed out it's not a one-off if you re-run it for which there is no basis.

I was referring to the action of leaving the EU, not the physical process of a referendum.

[Einion Yrth]

steveatesh said:

Einion Yrth said:

Blue Oval84 said:

Einion Yrth said:

Blue Oval84 said:

I think

Evidence, please.

I'm just quoting a personal opinion for discussion, I don't need to provide evidence for that.

If I had said "it would definitely have changed" then you may have a point.

Referenda are expensive, we just held one. The majority chose to leave the EU.
If the result had been the other way I'd have just got on with my life, might I suggest you do the same.

Must confess EY I didn't think Blues post was whinging or moaning about the result, he appeared to be merely raising a discussion point in the spirit of this thread. There have been a lot worse throughout the campaign. Now ///ajd is another matter......
Still have a to celebrate democracy for three days up to now.....

No, that's fair. I misread it and apologise to Mr. B Oval. I'm just getting so tired of the negativity now that I think I'm starting to overreact.

[Einion Yrth]

Blue Oval84 said:

Einion Yrth said:

Referenda are expensive, we just held one. The majority chose to leave the EU.
If the result had been the other way I'd have just got on with my life, might I suggest you do the same.

I voted leave.

If however we end up in a position where the government realises that an EFTA deal can't be negotiated, I don't want them to say "fk it, let's crash the country because we were told to".

As elsewhere noted, I apologise. I overreacted.

[turbobloke]

Mario149 said:

turbobloke said:

Mario149 said:

markcoznottz said:

Just because the establishment are like headless chickens does not excuse them from thier responsibilities. Why bother with a referendum (the cost??) if no one acts on it. Like a few people have said, if we fudge and status quo it, the fundamental reasons we voted out are still there? Bunch of third grade art graduates. Only days before the result Cameron was telling lies about turkey, same old same old.

The Ref was purely about Tory internal politics, it had precious little, if anything to do with acting on what the electorate wanted. DC was effectively spending public money in a new and interesting way to get the Tories re-elected.

CMD is guilty of a series of massive misjudgements.

If it was in any way about abuse of public bodies to get re-elected then as a Conservative voter I would condemn it in the strongest possible terms and that would be another CMD misjudgement beyond the others.

So are you condemning it or not?

Condemning what?

I'm condemning anything that happened during the referendum campaign that was motivated by CMD wanting to bolster the Tories' chances of re-election. Like standing outside number ten to spin like a top during purdah. That's illegitimate. Did we get to vote to agree to him doing it for Party reasons, if he did? No, however there needs to be more evidence which is why I said 'if'. I suspect he did what he did out of either concern for his legacy or because he really thinks the EU in its present form is a good idea, as a delusional chap he may well have thought that.

Having a policy in a manifesto that people can vote for or against is normal and, by definition, we got to vote on it, and Cameron's lot were elected. All politicians aim to get reelected, the only problems occur if they abuse process to do it. A manifesto pledge isn't abuse of process it's SOP for all Parties.

[Blue Oval84]

Einion Yrth said:

No, that's fair. I misread it and apologise to Mr. B Oval. I'm just getting so tired of the negativity now that I think I'm starting to overreact.

[steveatesh]

Einion Yrth said:

No, that's fair. I misread it and apologise to Mr. B Oval. I'm just getting so tired of the negativity now that I think I'm starting to overreact.

Lol, I agree, I'm tired of the constantly running the country down and exaggeration by both sides. I agree that lots of the elite need to get a grip ( as do some on here). The country seems to be on the verge of group hysteria.

[turbobloke]

steveatesh said:

Einion Yrth said:

No, that's fair. I misread it and apologise to Mr. B Oval. I'm just getting so tired of the negativity now that I think I'm starting to overreact.

Lol, I agree, I'm tired of the constantly running the country down and exaggeration by both sides. I agree that lots of the elite need to get a grip ( as do some on here). The country seems to be on the verge of group hysteria.

Parts of it anyway. On Friday morning I made another cup of tea

CMD is still PM, where the farquharson is he?

Crying into his memoirs?

He needs to get a grip and get out there and lead.

Now would do!

[Mario149]

Einion Yrth said:

kurt535 said:

Result is economy is f**ked.

Can't see another referendum taking place though. Don't feel everything is as cut and dried though. I'm holding out for a hybrid model agreement with EU otherwise NZ/Canada/Oz here my family comes next year. House goes on the market end of next week and I will take a loss to reduce exposure to our economy.

Get a grip.

EY, the problem is for some people it has already, and probably will continue to do so to a greater or lesser extent for the next few years. See TannedBaldHead on the 2nd Referendum Please thread. As i said in another post, it's one thing to vote Leave knowing that you may be out of pocket, it's quite another to then be presented with it as fact by your employer the day after the result as a direct consequence of your choice.

[sidicks]

Blue Oval84 said:

I voted leave.

If however we end up in a position where the government realises that an EFTA deal can't be negotiated, I don't want them to say "fk it, let's crash the country because we were told to".

Maybe the losers should shut up if or until that actually happens? In that scenario there may well be plenty of 'leavers' who share the same opinion.

[aeropilot]

markcoznottz said:

Mario149 said:

Blue Oval84 said:

Just throwing this out there, a lot of people keep referring to the "will of the people" etc. but do we think that all 52% still think the same way today as they did on Thursday?

It seems to me, anecdotally, that there are quite a few of them who now think they were lied to "let's spend £350m on the NHS", "let's stop immigration" (it doesn't matter that it's not quite what was said, that was what they heard).

Now that they're waking up to some serious uncertainty, Downing St admitting it has no plan for this eventuality, Bo Jo himself looking like he didn't really want this outcome, admissions from Nigel Farrage that the NHS thing was "a mistake", and from Danial Hannan that they shouldn't expect us not to be accepting some free movement of people, do we honestly think all 52% are happy with the way they voted?

I think the government could quite easily get away with not implementing article 50 at this rate and, without having a sort of "are you sure you're sure?" referendum, it would be very hard to keep a straight face and say that all 52% are still in favour of leaving.

This^^. I know I'm biased as a Remainer, but I do genuinely think that in the last 48 hours or so when the ramifications of what has been voted for have started to become apparent, there are a statistically significant number of people who voted Leave who'd probably give a different Ref answer today than on Thursday as they were "soft" (i.e. it was a close run thing for them) Leavers. Conversely if you were a "soft" Remainer, I can't see anything that would push you the other way as I've seen literally no good short term news. And that doesn't even account for what I imagine would be a larger youth turnout and likely great Remain vote now that a great many of them would realise they can't be lazy and expect everything to be fine.

Just because the establishment are like headless chickens does not excuse them from thier responsibilities.

Gormless stupid, irresponsible politicians are why the post vote debacle has erupted.

For starters, CMD fked up by calling the referendum so soon after the GE....no doubt on the false impression he thus had a mandate to and remain would walk it, so never having a plan in place if we don't.
He also immediately flaunced off and threw his toys out the pram as he didn't and jacked. What was wanted at that point was strong leadership (yeah, I know in our dreams) and stood outside No.10, and made a speech about accepting the choice of the people and he and the Govt would now do what is right and do their best for his country be retaining a stable Govt and leadership.

Tosser....

[turbobloke]

Mario149 said:

EY, the problem is for some people it has already, and probably will continue to do so to a greater or lesser extent for the next few years.

Neither you, nor any other PHer you may refer to, can say what will happen over the next few years.

If you and lots of others talk the country down then you may become part of a self-fulfilling prophecy but even that isn't certain.

In reality if you knew the future for certain you would be wondering what to do with all the money from winning every lottery every week.

If, and it is if, you are correct, you guessed right, you didn't "know".

[kurt535]

Hosenbugler said:

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A bit boring, I know, but for me, thats it. Sorry

and the restoration of a ration card and the coal man, milk man, all wearing jolly nice uniforms. restored steam trains would be nice too. what about making comet aircraft again? and smoking in pubs?

[turbobloke]

kurt535 said:

and the restoration of a ration card and the coal man, milk man, all wearing jolly nice uniforms. restored steam trains would be nice too. what about making comet aircraft again? and smoking in pubs?

Nonsense predictions saved for posterity

I bet you change your mind it must be like voting in a referendum

[Blue Oval84]

sidicks said:

Maybe the losers should shut up if or until that actually happens? In that scenario there may well be plenty of 'leavers' who share the same opinion.

I think we're in total agreement then, I was simply suggesting that this may be the case and therefore it's not really fair to say that "it's the will of the people". It was the will on Thursday, it may not be in the future if it looks like things are going to go seriously belly up.

[kurt535]

turbobloke said:

kurt535 said:

and the restoration of a ration card and the coal man, milk man, all wearing jolly nice uniforms. restored steam trains would be nice too. what about making comet aircraft again? and smoking in pubs?

Nonsense predictions saved for posterity

that made me smile ))

[405dogvan]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Robertj21a said:

405dogvan said:

If Scotland leaves (as they clearly intend to do whenever possible) - what will be left of Britain - or has Britain always been a code-word for England in your world?

Scotland won't leave. They can't afford to.

Keep saying it until the fools listen - SNP is all wind, Scotland would already be knocking on the door with a begging bowl if they'd left before.

The only way Scotland could survive is if they decided to become the industrial fracking centre of the world - but the SNP doesn't like fracking.

What happens if Scotland leaves the EU/stays in the UK and the only electable party continues to oppose that - how, exactly, does a country do one thing which having a Govt which pledges the opposite??

I can imagine the SNP simply using their position to get whatever they want (including financial support) from the UK whilst 'pretending' to want something else for a while - but not indefinately.

Just as a Tory Party which proceeds from this point for less than a proper EU withdrawl (not a cop-out EEA-style deal) may not last long either...

Also - what makes you think Scotland absolutely can't survive alone but England/Wales (with or without Scotland and NI) obviously can - both are 'great unknowns' and I'd say the latter is the riskier proposition?