Discussion
vonuber said:
Remain voters were overwhelmingly more likely to be educated and young, i.e. the very people who not only are net contributors but also the same people who are going to have to pull us out of this fk up.
And you wonder why people are angry.
They need anger management then.And you wonder why people are angry.
Even if so, being educated and young is no proxy for being right.
There's nothing special about either criterion, surely your post isn't some form of death blow for egalitarianism and the positing of the superiority of an age group and for an educational stratum - quite appalling if so, arrogant and divisive.
As far as being young and educated goes, this relates to attributes related to knowledge, understanding and naiveté.
Wisdom is related to experiemce. Young educated voters are young and educated but may well lack the wisdom to make accurate judgements.
vonuber said:
muppet
Oh dear.
turbobloke said:
Eventually, outside the EU and with numerous related opportinities to do better outside the straitjacket and loss of funds.
The rest of your post is also, with respect, purely a downside view. We must take into account all possibilities and in a cost-benefit analysis around any decision, the potential benefits need to be placed alongside the potential costs, and this is a give-away as you're posting only or mainly the downside of potential disbenefits. It's like listening to Remain pre-referendum.
After the referendum it won't all happen at once, very far from it, so judgements at this stage are way too premature.
OK, let me try and ask clearer questions.The rest of your post is also, with respect, purely a downside view. We must take into account all possibilities and in a cost-benefit analysis around any decision, the potential benefits need to be placed alongside the potential costs, and this is a give-away as you're posting only or mainly the downside of potential disbenefits. It's like listening to Remain pre-referendum.
After the referendum it won't all happen at once, very far from it, so judgements at this stage are way too premature.
Who, from the current crop of politicians, is going to take the negotiations forward such that we end up with no free movement, and no net contribution to the EU? Boris? Gove? May?
The downsides are happening right now (as predicted by sensible people, rather than the ridiculous over exaggerations peddled by the official Remain and Leave sides). The upsides are in the future, and at the moment it looks like 'proper' negotiations with the EU are unlikely to start until November or even later. It also looks (based on the comments from the people who on balance of probabilities are the ones going to be managing the negotiations) that we will end up with some version of free movement, some version of the single market and almost certainly some contribution to the EU (most likely a net contribution given the size and strength of our economy).
Who is going to steer us away from that? You say judgements at this stage are way too premature, but whilst I obviously do not have a crystal ball, the building blocks and plans we have at the moment are clearly showing we are building some sort of house, not a boat, or a plane or anything else (if you will excuse the tortured analogy).
Apparently, judgements made by many on this forum about the future direction of the EU with us in it were a forgone conclusion, but judgements about the future direction of the UK outside the EU are 'too early to make' and 'ignoring the potential upside'.
The only point about young people in this referendum was that they just didn't bother to actually turn up.
There was a poster posted somewhere with a shocked twenty something asking granny what she had done in voting to leave, and people seemed to think this was a great reflection on something. I preferred the later modified same poster where granny says ' I actually bothered to vote you lazy idiot'. I found it odd that no one likes to mention this, yet over at the Guardian they indulge their Facebook moaning.
There was a poster posted somewhere with a shocked twenty something asking granny what she had done in voting to leave, and people seemed to think this was a great reflection on something. I preferred the later modified same poster where granny says ' I actually bothered to vote you lazy idiot'. I found it odd that no one likes to mention this, yet over at the Guardian they indulge their Facebook moaning.
walm said:
I replied above!
Apologies. I was distracted with the reply window open.Working in the industry you must know that things go up and down all the time for all sorts of reasons. Do you normally allow panic to set in against one day's figures? How long have you been in the markets?
turbobloke said:
Oh dear.
That wasn't my point was it? Right or wrong, it's these people who are going to have to do the work to make it work as they are generally those who contribute the most to the ecomomy in job creation and taxes.It's like people voting for a s
t sandwich and making those who voted against not only make it but eat it.turbobloke said:
whoami said:
turbobloke said:
Young educated voters are young and educated but may well lack the wisdom to make accurate judgements.
Like, apparently, actually bothering to vote.
and they still moan! vonuber said:
turbobloke said:
Oh dear.
That wasn't my point was it? Right or wrong, it's these people who are going to have to do the work to make it work as they are generally those who contribute the most to the ecomomy in job creation and taxes.It's like people voting for a s
t sandwich and making those who voted against not only make it but eat it.mattmurdock said:
Apparently, judgements made by many on this forum about the future direction of the EU with us in it were a forgone conclusion, but judgements about the future direction of the UK outside the EU are 'too early to make' and 'ignoring the potential upside'.
Unless you are totally oblivious to politics and economics you should be familiar that:- The EU economy is struggling
- The EU is set on heading towards greater economic and political union, despite all the issues that entails
- The EU has been adamant that there will be no concessions for the UK
That's pretty clear to all.
The detail of how the UK can and will interact with the EU and the rest of the world, post Brexit, is very much up in the air and subject to negotiation.
mattmurdock said:
turbobloke said:
Eventually, outside the EU and with numerous related opportinities to do better outside the straitjacket and loss of funds.
The rest of your post is also, with respect, purely a downside view. We must take into account all possibilities and in a cost-benefit analysis around any decision, the potential benefits need to be placed alongside the potential costs, and this is a give-away as you're posting only or mainly the downside of potential disbenefits. It's like listening to Remain pre-referendum.
After the referendum it won't all happen at once, very far from it, so judgements at this stage are way too premature.
OK, let me try and ask clearer questions.The rest of your post is also, with respect, purely a downside view. We must take into account all possibilities and in a cost-benefit analysis around any decision, the potential benefits need to be placed alongside the potential costs, and this is a give-away as you're posting only or mainly the downside of potential disbenefits. It's like listening to Remain pre-referendum.
After the referendum it won't all happen at once, very far from it, so judgements at this stage are way too premature.
Who, from the current crop of politicians, is going to take the negotiations forward such that we end up with no free movement, and no net contribution to the EU? Boris? Gove? May?
mattmurdock said:
The downsides are happening right now (as predicted by sensible people, rather than the ridiculous over exaggerations peddled by the official Remain and Leave sides).
They are narrower than the long-term pessimism and what's with the pretend surprise around GBP? The rises and falls were taking place pre-referendum based solely on the erroneous polls. The FTSE 100 rose over 2% at the end of the week including the referendum outcome. A lower GBP offers a boost to exporters. I can't recall you mentioning any of this. As yet there are no house price reports from Halifax et al.mattmurdock said:
The upsides are in the future, and at the moment it looks like 'proper' negotiations with the EU are unlikely to start until November or even later.
And this can be to our advantage, not least with prospective referenda emerging in other EU countries looking for a Nexit, Denexit and so on. You appear to dislike uncertainty and have low risk tolerance, OK fine but it doesn't define a wider reality. And it may be wrong, appearances can be deceptive.mattmurdock said:
It also looks (based on the comments from the people who on balance of probabilities are the ones going to be managing the negotiations) that we will end up with some version of free movement, some version of the single market and almost certainly some contribution to the EU (most likely a net contribution given the size and strength of our economy).
Did you read the various documents around the exit process options pre-referendum? The above options are options and surely not meant to come as a surprise...unless you're assuming everyone's priorities were reflected in them and ignore Flexcit et al.mattmurdock said:
Who is going to steer us away from that?
Who says it will happen as you say? Presience is a rare attribute. Guesswork is more common and may be wrong.As to who, see my reply above to the same question.
mattmurdock said:
You say judgements at this stage are way too premature...
They are.mattmurdock said:
...but whilst I obviously do not have a crystal ball...
Have you lost it since posting?!
mattmurdock said:
Apparently, judgements made by many on this forum about the future direction of the EU with us in it were a forgone conclusion, but judgements about the future direction of the UK outside the EU are 'too early to make' and 'ignoring the potential upside'.
There was evidence, for example Juncker, and Treaties.It wasn't pure guesswork.
Murph7355 said:
Working in the industry you must know that things go up and down all the time for all sorts of reasons. Do you normally allow panic to set in against one day's figures? How long have you been in the markets?
Only a decade and a half or so.Lived through 2008 (barely) but missed all the tech bubble shenanigans.
Volatility is a fact of life, yes.
But what is completely crazy is to suggest that the current move isn't directly related to Brexit.
It's ALL to do with that, there really isn't any other news moving the markets at the moment.
In fairness we are back to Feb lows for many stocks but the point is that things were heading in a fairly nice direction when it looked like Remain would win: markets recovering and pound strengthening.
Again though the real question is where from here!
Murph7355 said:
walm said:
I replied above!
Apologies. I was distracted with the reply window open.Working in the industry you must know that things go up and down all the time for all sorts of reasons. Do you normally allow panic to set in against one day's figures? How long have you been in the markets?
RichB said:
turbobloke said:
whoami said:
turbobloke said:
Young educated voters are young and educated but may well lack the wisdom to make accurate judgements.
Like, apparently, actually bothering to vote. and they still moan! Whatever "education" they may have, it seems that the fact you have to get off your arse to place your vote, rather than bleat on Twitter or FB, seems to have escaped them.
It says it all.
walm said:
Murph7355 said:
Working in the industry you must know that things go up and down all the time for all sorts of reasons. Do you normally allow panic to set in against one day's figures? How long have you been in the markets?
Only a decade and a half or so.Lived through 2008 (barely) but missed all the tech bubble shenanigans.
Volatility is a fact of life, yes.
But what is completely crazy is to suggest that the current move isn't directly related to Brexit.
Have they just been on a course?
What goes down will go up. Some bargains are to be had not least in terms of our exports benefiting from GBP.
whoami said:
RichB said:
turbobloke said:
whoami said:
turbobloke said:
Young educated voters are young and educated but may well lack the wisdom to make accurate judgements.
Like, apparently, actually bothering to vote. and they still moan! Whatever "education" they may have, it seems that the fact you have to get off your arse to place your vote, rather than bleat on Twitter or FB, seems to have escaped them.
It says it all.
Sam All said:
Oh dear.
Oh dear all you like - it's true. I see the pound is now at a historic 32 year low against the dollar currently.I'm currently worrying that projects with overseas investment are going to be pulled which will be catastrophic for our company with huge knock on effects.
Still, roll your sleeves up eh! We can all turn into fisherman overnight!
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