Discussion
andyjo1982 said:
Aricle 50.
Probably covered in here somewhere, but if Article 50 is triggered, can that be withdrawn at any point? Thinking if there is a GE and change of government.
I suspect not?
Given that what happens after you invoke it is a negotiation process I'm sure that process can have a 'OK, forget I said it" outcome (what's the point of negociating if the end-result is the same?)Probably covered in here somewhere, but if Article 50 is triggered, can that be withdrawn at any point? Thinking if there is a GE and change of government.
I suspect not?
I'm NOT sure the other states will take well to someone using Article 50 as a lever to get what they want/something no-other member has tho - I think they expect you to 'leave something' at least.
If anyone thinks it's a tool to get what previous PMs have failed to get - they've been taking too many happy pills.
As we seem to be talking of some sort of EEA deal (but a different one to Iceland and Norway - or EEFTA with Switz. and Liecht.) I guess that might be a long conversation tho - and some sort of leaving is involved (Boris wants out of the EU parliament/law/courts fo sure?)
Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 27th June 14:26
Jimbeaux said:
So, The British people do not want unelected bureaucrats in another country telling them what to buy, what to eat, how to live, and what to think and people accuse them of being racists and xenophobes? That is both laughable and disgusting at the same time!
The tactics haven't changed after the referendum you know !
walm said:
The semantics are important here.
...
(BSD - I wish!!)
My view is that it's more likely we both knew what we were talking about in our own way of speaking....
(BSD - I wish!!)
Telling people what they know and don't know is an odd thing to do when the individuals don't know each other and the evidence base is thinner than thin.
Wording it in the form of an insult is pointless antagonism.
Thank you for taking my 'in-kind' reply in good spirit so hopefully we can leave the personals and get back on topic.
Mario149 said:
And what about the people who had no choice, who have to buy their annuity during this period of uncertainty? Or who don't have the ability to micromanage their investments? or simply had bad financial advice? Are they idiots too? The "I'm all right jack, so I'm sure everyone else will be too" cavalier attitude to other people's livelihoods is astounding.
There is no compulsion to buy an annuity any more. Boy George fixed that for us last yearMr_B said:
Jimbeaux said:
So, The British people do not want unelected bureaucrats in another country telling them what to buy, what to eat, how to live, and what to think and people accuse them of being racists and xenophobes? That is both laughable and disgusting at the same time!
The tactics haven't changed after the referendum you know !What many people have said about why they voted 'Leave' is selfish and narrowminded - many have latched onto a single problem and decided to blame the EU for it and that's enough to Leave.
Some say it's the 'lack of control' that Boris speaks of and that's an issue for sure, but it's also a rein on our Govt taking us on a race-to-the-bottom against every other country in Europe - 2 sides to that coin.
Some say it's the number of EU immigrants lowering wages and stressing public services but we know for a fact that they contribute more than they cost and local issues of housing/job security should be dealt with by local/national government (but aren't and therefore won't be in future either) - and none of those people will likely go away...
Is there a word for people who decide to do something for a narrow-minded and perhaps illogical/wrong reason - who do something just to lash out at 'whoever's fault it is' without considering the possible outcome?
Is there a word for someone who's just handed more power to people who want to open-op the country to even more competition, remove a lot of the controls intended to prevent that race-to-the-bottom I talked-about - who are in no way obliged to fix the issues people voted-on?
I don't have much outside of 'idiot' - sadly - I'm no Jacob Rees-Mogg - is there something Latin I can fall to?
Whatever - be under NO illusion - an independent and successful Britain (England) will be a country of lower-barriers not higher ones - a country of freer regulation, not tougher - that control will not be to make things easier on workers for sure (businesses maybe)
Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 27th June 14:39
405dogvan said:
Racist is ALWAYS the wrong term here - xenophobe is better but lazy...
What many people have said about why they voted 'Leave' is selfish and narrowminded - many have latched onto a single problem and decided to blame the EU for it and that's enough to Leave.
Some say it's the 'lack of control' that Boris speaks of and that's an issue for sure, but it's also a rein on our Govt taking us on a race-to-the-bottom against every other country in Europe - 2 sides to that coin.
Some say it's the number of EU immigrants lowering wages and stressing public services but we know for a fact that they contribute more than they cost and local issues of housing/job security should be dealt with by local/national government (but aren't and therefore won't be in future either) - and none of those people will likely go away...
Still not true, no matter how many times you repeat it.What many people have said about why they voted 'Leave' is selfish and narrowminded - many have latched onto a single problem and decided to blame the EU for it and that's enough to Leave.
Some say it's the 'lack of control' that Boris speaks of and that's an issue for sure, but it's also a rein on our Govt taking us on a race-to-the-bottom against every other country in Europe - 2 sides to that coin.
Some say it's the number of EU immigrants lowering wages and stressing public services but we know for a fact that they contribute more than they cost and local issues of housing/job security should be dealt with by local/national government (but aren't and therefore won't be in future either) - and none of those people will likely go away...
405dogvan said:
Is there a word for people who decide to do something for a narrow-minded and perhaps illogical/wrong reason - who do something just to lash out at 'whoever's fault it is' without considering the possible outcome?
Is there a word for someone who's just handed more power to people who want to open-op the country to even more competition, remove a lot of the controls intended to prevent that race-to-the-bottom I talked-about - who are in no way obliged to fix the issues people voted-on?
Idiot is all I can come up with atm
Is there a word for someone that continues to misunderstand the situation, continues to make false arguments and clearly doesn't understand economics?Is there a word for someone who's just handed more power to people who want to open-op the country to even more competition, remove a lot of the controls intended to prevent that race-to-the-bottom I talked-about - who are in no way obliged to fix the issues people voted-on?
Idiot is all I can come up with atm
405dogvan is all that I can come up with atm
sidicks said:
405dogvan said:
Some say it's the number of EU immigrants lowering wages and stressing public services but we know for a fact that they contribute more than they cost
Still not true, no matter how many times you repeat it.I have seen analysis on both sides. Nothing so conclusive that I would say it is "not true".
What's your evidence?
Defence Secretary Michael Fallon lives near me and whilst doing dog walks we meet an old lady who has lived for donkeys years in the area, knows everyone and is always good for a chat, mainly about the weather...
Her comment on Michael Fallon?
"His wife is very nice"
I can't think of a better unassuming very British put down
Her comment on Michael Fallon?
"His wife is very nice"
I can't think of a better unassuming very British put down
I have thought about making long winded posts, but after viewing each of the many, many threads full of people unhappy with the diplomatic process, I have to say,
I just cant be bothered.
Not even interested in reading anymore of this crap.. so to save anyone else reading any further -
The majority of the populace are Either racist, Xenophobic or are simply idiots as they dont agree with the minorities opinions.... its that simple - because the minority says so, and they have more degrees than the rest of the population put together, they pay more tax than the majority do........
so to put it simply - obviously, so all of us can understand -
The majority opinion is not important, correct or apparently the way democracy is supposed to work
!
I just cant be bothered.
Not even interested in reading anymore of this crap.. so to save anyone else reading any further -
The majority of the populace are Either racist, Xenophobic or are simply idiots as they dont agree with the minorities opinions.... its that simple - because the minority says so, and they have more degrees than the rest of the population put together, they pay more tax than the majority do........
so to put it simply - obviously, so all of us can understand -
The majority opinion is not important, correct or apparently the way democracy is supposed to work
!405dogvan said:
Racist is ALWAYS the wrong term here - xenophobe is better but lazy...
What many people have said about why they voted 'Leave' is selfish and narrowminded - many have latched onto a single problem and decided to blame the EU for it and that's enough to Leave.
Some say it's the 'lack of control' that Boris speaks of and that's an issue for sure, but it's also a rein on our Govt taking us on a race-to-the-bottom against every other country in Europe - 2 sides to that coin.
Some say it's the number of EU immigrants lowering wages and stressing public services but we know for a fact that they contribute more than they cost and local issues of housing/job security should be dealt with by local/national government (but aren't and therefore won't be in future either) - and none of those people will likely go away...
Is there a word for people who decide to do something for a narrow-minded and perhaps illogical/wrong reason - who do something just to lash out at 'whoever's fault it is' without considering the possible outcome?
Is there a word for someone who's just handed more power to people who want to open-op the country to even more competition, remove a lot of the controls intended to prevent that race-to-the-bottom I talked-about - who are in no way obliged to fix the issues people voted-on?
I don't have much outside of 'idiot' - sadly - I'm no Jacob Rees-Mogg - is there something Latin I can fall to?
Whatever - be under NO illusion - an independent and successful Britain (England) will be a country of lower-barriers not higher ones - a country of freer regulation, not tougher - that control will not be to make things easier on workers for sure (businesses maybe)
If the country had voted to remain in Europe I would be thinking of ways to work that to my advantage, as we have made a, painful in the short term, brave decision to steer our own path in the world then I can relax a bit and breath easy.What many people have said about why they voted 'Leave' is selfish and narrowminded - many have latched onto a single problem and decided to blame the EU for it and that's enough to Leave.
Some say it's the 'lack of control' that Boris speaks of and that's an issue for sure, but it's also a rein on our Govt taking us on a race-to-the-bottom against every other country in Europe - 2 sides to that coin.
Some say it's the number of EU immigrants lowering wages and stressing public services but we know for a fact that they contribute more than they cost and local issues of housing/job security should be dealt with by local/national government (but aren't and therefore won't be in future either) - and none of those people will likely go away...
Is there a word for people who decide to do something for a narrow-minded and perhaps illogical/wrong reason - who do something just to lash out at 'whoever's fault it is' without considering the possible outcome?
Is there a word for someone who's just handed more power to people who want to open-op the country to even more competition, remove a lot of the controls intended to prevent that race-to-the-bottom I talked-about - who are in no way obliged to fix the issues people voted-on?
I don't have much outside of 'idiot' - sadly - I'm no Jacob Rees-Mogg - is there something Latin I can fall to?
Whatever - be under NO illusion - an independent and successful Britain (England) will be a country of lower-barriers not higher ones - a country of freer regulation, not tougher - that control will not be to make things easier on workers for sure (businesses maybe)
Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 27th June 14:39
I would, had my chosen side lost, not be on here with my fingers in my ears shouting LA LA LA YOU ARE ALL STUPID.
Is there a word for that
405dogvan said:
Mr_B said:
Jimbeaux said:
So, The British people do not want unelected bureaucrats in another country telling them what to buy, what to eat, how to live, and what to think and people accuse them of being racists and xenophobes? That is both laughable and disgusting at the same time!
The tactics haven't changed after the referendum you know !What many people have said about why they voted 'Leave' is selfish and narrowminded - many have latched onto a single problem and decided to blame the EU for it and that's enough to Leave.
Some say it's the 'lack of control' that Boris speaks of and that's an issue for sure, but it's also a rein on our Govt taking us on a race-to-the-bottom against every other country in Europe - 2 sides to that coin.
Some say it's the number of EU immigrants lowering wages and stressing public services but we know for a fact that they contribute more than they cost and local issues of housing/job security should be dealt with by local/national government (but aren't and therefore won't be in future either) - and none of those people will likely go away...
Is there a word for people who decide to do something for a narrow-minded and perhaps illogical/wrong reason - who do something just to lash out at 'whoever's fault it is' without considering the possible outcome?
Is there a word for someone who's just handed more power to people who want to open-op the country to even more competition, remove a lot of the controls intended to prevent that race-to-the-bottom I talked-about - who are in no way obliged to fix the issues people voted-on?
I don't have much outside of 'idiot' - sadly - I'm no Jacob Rees-Mogg - is there something Latin I can fall to?
Whatever - be under NO illusion - an independent and successful Britain (England) will be a country of lower-barriers not higher ones - a country of freer regulation, not tougher - that control will not be to make things easier on workers for sure (businesses maybe)
Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 27th June 14:39
walm said:
Link?
I have seen analysis on both sides. Nothing so conclusive that I would say it is "not true".
What's your evidence?
1. How much tax does an employee earning minimum wage pay?I have seen analysis on both sides. Nothing so conclusive that I would say it is "not true".
What's your evidence?
2. How much do they receive in benefits?
3. What is the value of public services they receive?
You don't need a complicated model to deduce that 1 << 2+3.
Whether this is the case on average is a quite different question.
Hence why (the majority) of those in favour of leaving the EU have not suggested that immigration will be stopped, just that we can be more choosy about who to accept to reduce those that are a net cost, thereby improving outcomes for everyone!
Edited by sidicks on Monday 27th June 14:54
sidicks said:
walm said:
Link?
I have seen analysis on both sides. Nothing so conclusive that I would say it is "not true".
What's your evidence?
1. How much tax does an employee earning minimum wage pay?I have seen analysis on both sides. Nothing so conclusive that I would say it is "not true".
What's your evidence?
2. How much do they receive in benefits?
3. What is the value of public services they receive?
You don't need a complicated model to deduce that 1 << 2+3.
Whether this is the case on average is a quite different question.
Hence why (the majority) of those in favour of leaving the EU have not suggested that immigration will be stopped, just that we can be more choosy about who to accept to reduce those that are a net cost, thereby improving outcomes for everyone!
And for the analysis I have seen the non-EU migrants into the UK (where we are as choosy as we want) appear to contribute FAR FAR LESS!! (I am really not sure why, but I think it has something to do with families joining their wage-earning relatives rather than younger healthier people temporarily heading over here to earn and then moving home again.)
In any case, we are talking about such small numbers it's an absolute rounding error compared to the impact of a recession.
100k migrants accounts for 0.15% of the population!!
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