Discussion
Robertj21a said:
sidicks said:
1. How much tax does an employee earning minimum wage pay?
2. How much do they receive in benefits?
3. What is the value of public services they receive?
You don't need a complicated model to deduce that 1 << 2+3.
Whether this is the case on average is a quite different question.
Hence why (the majority) of those in favour of leaving the EU have not suggested that immigration will be stopped, just that we can be more choosy about who to accept to reduce those that are a net cost, thereby improving outcomes for everyone!
So, the large numbers of Polish girls and boys working hard all over the UK are assumed to be earning minimum wages and claiming benefits ? I think you may be surprised if you check your facts.2. How much do they receive in benefits?
3. What is the value of public services they receive?
You don't need a complicated model to deduce that 1 << 2+3.
Whether this is the case on average is a quite different question.
Hence why (the majority) of those in favour of leaving the EU have not suggested that immigration will be stopped, just that we can be more choosy about who to accept to reduce those that are a net cost, thereby improving outcomes for everyone!
Edited by sidicks on Monday 27th June 14:54
walm said:
BlueHave said:
I just don't get it.
In a few years the UK will ultimately be better off.
Not sure many economists would agree.In a few years the UK will ultimately be better off.
We obviously won't know for a while if any of them are right.
But it is numbers like this that made many people want to Remain, as far as I can tell.
Certainly among my friends and colleagues.
sidicks said:
Robertj21a said:
So, the large numbers of Polish girls and boys working hard all over the UK are assumed to be earning minimum wages and claiming benefits ? I think you may be surprised if you check your facts.
I've said no such thing - please read what I actually wrote. Thanks.Well maybe we can start addressing those who, even though we have free education, leave school unable to read and write.
Our tragedy isn't immigration, failed politicians or social injustice, it's generations who take for granted, that which in other parts of the world, is fought for tooth and nail to be acquired for themselves and their children.
Our tragedy isn't immigration, failed politicians or social injustice, it's generations who take for granted, that which in other parts of the world, is fought for tooth and nail to be acquired for themselves and their children.
youngsyr said:
A projection based on the 2015 general election turnout? So completely groundless then.
I've got it!!If the collective will of the country simply strives to make a market out of groundless projections, we will have the world market cornered between both camps.
We'll soon be millionaires Rodders!
BIANCO said:
RichB said:
405dogvan said:
A lot depends on whether you're one of those people that think where you're born gives you some golden ticket to a home/job/livelihood in that place - as opposed to a system whereby the qualified candidate who'll work for the least is the one who gets the job.
Well you've completely changed the question and personalised it somewhat however as I never shy away from answering a direct question on Pistonheads, unlike others who avoid answering questions at all costs, I will try. You actually didn't cover a third train of thought and personally I believe that the best qualified candidate should get the job regardless of what county they were born in, be it England, the UK, the EU or the Rest of the World. I personally believe that locals do deserve a level of priority over others, its their families and ancestors that helped build this nations and the economy. We should be making sure that we have best candidate here already before we start importing others.
Remember will live in a democracy and many continue to think “screw them as long i'm doing ok who cares about the people at the bottom. Who cares if there communities are changed beyond recognition without their consent if they don't like it we can just call them racist ”. The peasants revolt and say f
k you lot and vote for things thats screw the people at the top. king tells us. Treat the electorate like kids and ....Well.. Things happen. 
Fittster said:
walm said:
BlueHave said:
I just don't get it.
In a few years the UK will ultimately be better off.
Not sure many economists would agree.In a few years the UK will ultimately be better off.
We obviously won't know for a while if any of them are right.
But it is numbers like this that made many people want to Remain, as far as I can tell.
Certainly among my friends and colleagues.
How many of those economists (or at least the ones that attempted long range crystal balling) priced in the effects of such - and the variance on the can we'll be holding when it happens dependant on whether we are in or out?
Greece's 'final' bailout is very soon...
It's not getting a lot of coverage, but interesting to see a few Czech and Polish politicians breaking ranks and pointing the finger of blame where it really belongs, with Donald Tusk and especially Jean-Claude Juncker, without whose blockheaded intransigence this clusterfk need never have happened. In the run-up to the 2015 election we had a whole series of announcements from the Commission which seemed designed to drive British voters into Farage's arms. Then Cameron tried to negotiate better terms from the EU, was totally blocked and left with nothing he could sell to the British people. And now, with a G8 country on the brink of crashing out of the EU, all we are hearing from Juncker is "well fk off then and be quick about it. And by the way we'll make sure the British people suffer, and are seen to suffer, just so that no-one else gets any silly ideas about leaving".
If the only way you can keep people in your club is through fear and intimidation, might that not be telling you something about the club? The Poles and Czechs know from recent experience what happens when you try and hold an economic bloc together by those methods, which makes me wonder why Juncker and co are so keen on a European army - is it to deter external threats, or internal ones? Whatever, Juncker and Tusk should (to paraphrase P J O'Rourke) be dragged through the streets of Brussels by their ears nailed to a truck bumper. Here's hoping.
k need never have happened. In the run-up to the 2015 election we had a whole series of announcements from the Commission which seemed designed to drive British voters into Farage's arms. Then Cameron tried to negotiate better terms from the EU, was totally blocked and left with nothing he could sell to the British people. And now, with a G8 country on the brink of crashing out of the EU, all we are hearing from Juncker is "well fk off then and be quick about it. And by the way we'll make sure the British people suffer, and are seen to suffer, just so that no-one else gets any silly ideas about leaving".If the only way you can keep people in your club is through fear and intimidation, might that not be telling you something about the club? The Poles and Czechs know from recent experience what happens when you try and hold an economic bloc together by those methods, which makes me wonder why Juncker and co are so keen on a European army - is it to deter external threats, or internal ones? Whatever, Juncker and Tusk should (to paraphrase P J O'Rourke) be dragged through the streets of Brussels by their ears nailed to a truck bumper. Here's hoping.
230TE said:
It's not getting a lot of coverage, but interesting to see a few Czech and Polish politicians breaking ranks and pointing the finger of blame where it really belongs, with Donald Tusk and especially Jean-Claude Juncker, without whose blockheaded intransigence this clusterfk need never have happened. In the run-up to the 2015 election we had a whole series of announcements from the Commission which seemed designed to drive British voters into Farage's arms. Then Cameron tried to negotiate better terms from the EU, was totally blocked and left with nothing he could sell to the British people. And now, with a G8 country on the brink of crashing out of the EU, all we are hearing from Juncker is "well fk off then and be quick about it. And by the way we'll make sure the British people suffer, and are seen to suffer, just so that no-one else gets any silly ideas about leaving".
If the only way you can keep people in your club is through fear and intimidation, might that not be telling you something about the club? The Poles and Czechs know from recent experience what happens when you try and hold an economic bloc together by those methods, which makes me wonder why Juncker and co are so keen on a European army - is it to deter external threats, or internal ones? Whatever, Juncker and Tusk should (to paraphrase P J O'Rourke) be dragged through the streets of Brussels by their ears nailed to a truck bumper. Here's hoping.
good post.k need never have happened. In the run-up to the 2015 election we had a whole series of announcements from the Commission which seemed designed to drive British voters into Farage's arms. Then Cameron tried to negotiate better terms from the EU, was totally blocked and left with nothing he could sell to the British people. And now, with a G8 country on the brink of crashing out of the EU, all we are hearing from Juncker is "well fk off then and be quick about it. And by the way we'll make sure the British people suffer, and are seen to suffer, just so that no-one else gets any silly ideas about leaving".If the only way you can keep people in your club is through fear and intimidation, might that not be telling you something about the club? The Poles and Czechs know from recent experience what happens when you try and hold an economic bloc together by those methods, which makes me wonder why Juncker and co are so keen on a European army - is it to deter external threats, or internal ones? Whatever, Juncker and Tusk should (to paraphrase P J O'Rourke) be dragged through the streets of Brussels by their ears nailed to a truck bumper. Here's hoping.
V88Dicky said:
Jimbeaux said:
Since the U.S. is the U.K.'s largest trading partner (US$66.5 billion-14.5% of total UK exports) Just join NAFTA. 
Yes please!Edited by Jimbeaux on Monday 27th June 18:16
Could even change it to North Atlantic Free Trade Area
Just to wade into the debate around the type of people coming in from the eu.
88% of 2015 EU migrants to the uk would fail the financial job criteria placed onto non-EU based migrants.
that information was given by Faisal Islam on channel 4.
roughly speaking then once you apply the non eu criteria to the eu migrants as a condition for entry the numbers coming from the EU become manageable almost overnight.
I would also add that the argument regarding migrants being net contributors is a flawed one for the majority of people not working in a corporate environment i.e a builder. not only are your wages being squeezed due to labour oversupply, your major single outgoing, housing costs, are also going up. so regardless of overall 'economic benefit' to the country this is counterbalanced by the damage made to these jobs and people.
wage stagnation in the corporate sense is also down to a greater proportion of profits going to senior management and shareholders rather than employees, immigration is not solely to blame here and this is down to government policy, not just here in the uk but all over the world, there was a great speech on ted about this and the overall share buy back phenomenon in the USA.
that said, if there are 5 candidates for a job and they are pretty much identical then who is willing to work for the least does become a factor and uk candidates are not protected in this regard and they should be.
overall even though I am educated and get paid alot our government had no strategy to deal with the numbers of people coming into the country and was not offering one in development either. I desperately want London to go back to how it was in 2002 but that boat sailed long ago. we must now deal with a big mess and getting out of the eu is step one.
88% of 2015 EU migrants to the uk would fail the financial job criteria placed onto non-EU based migrants.
that information was given by Faisal Islam on channel 4.
roughly speaking then once you apply the non eu criteria to the eu migrants as a condition for entry the numbers coming from the EU become manageable almost overnight.
I would also add that the argument regarding migrants being net contributors is a flawed one for the majority of people not working in a corporate environment i.e a builder. not only are your wages being squeezed due to labour oversupply, your major single outgoing, housing costs, are also going up. so regardless of overall 'economic benefit' to the country this is counterbalanced by the damage made to these jobs and people.
wage stagnation in the corporate sense is also down to a greater proportion of profits going to senior management and shareholders rather than employees, immigration is not solely to blame here and this is down to government policy, not just here in the uk but all over the world, there was a great speech on ted about this and the overall share buy back phenomenon in the USA.
that said, if there are 5 candidates for a job and they are pretty much identical then who is willing to work for the least does become a factor and uk candidates are not protected in this regard and they should be.
overall even though I am educated and get paid alot our government had no strategy to deal with the numbers of people coming into the country and was not offering one in development either. I desperately want London to go back to how it was in 2002 but that boat sailed long ago. we must now deal with a big mess and getting out of the eu is step one.
Edited by Carl_Manchester on Monday 27th June 20:03
230TE said:
It's not getting a lot of coverage, but interesting to see a few Czech and Polish politicians breaking ranks and pointing the finger of blame where it really belongs, with Donald Tusk and especially Jean-Claude Juncker, without whose blockheaded intransigence this clusterfk need never have happened. In the run-up to the 2015 election we had a whole series of announcements from the Commission which seemed designed to drive British voters into Farage's arms. Then Cameron tried to negotiate better terms from the EU, was totally blocked and left with nothing he could sell to the British people. And now, with a G8 country on the brink of crashing out of the EU, all we are hearing from Juncker is "well fk off then and be quick about it. And by the way we'll make sure the British people suffer, and are seen to suffer, just so that no-one else gets any silly ideas about leaving".
If the only way you can keep people in your club is through fear and intimidation, might that not be telling you something about the club? The Poles and Czechs know from recent experience what happens when you try and hold an economic bloc together by those methods, which makes me wonder why Juncker and co are so keen on a European army - is it to deter external threats, or internal ones? Whatever, Juncker and Tusk should (to paraphrase P J O'Rourke) be dragged through the streets of Brussels by their ears nailed to a truck bumper. Here's hoping.
There are lots of parallels between the old Soviet Union and the European Union; it was my main problem with Europe and I hope the whole thing will end up like its cold war counterpart, falling by its own weight, before it arms, polices and federalises itself.k need never have happened. In the run-up to the 2015 election we had a whole series of announcements from the Commission which seemed designed to drive British voters into Farage's arms. Then Cameron tried to negotiate better terms from the EU, was totally blocked and left with nothing he could sell to the British people. And now, with a G8 country on the brink of crashing out of the EU, all we are hearing from Juncker is "well fk off then and be quick about it. And by the way we'll make sure the British people suffer, and are seen to suffer, just so that no-one else gets any silly ideas about leaving".If the only way you can keep people in your club is through fear and intimidation, might that not be telling you something about the club? The Poles and Czechs know from recent experience what happens when you try and hold an economic bloc together by those methods, which makes me wonder why Juncker and co are so keen on a European army - is it to deter external threats, or internal ones? Whatever, Juncker and Tusk should (to paraphrase P J O'Rourke) be dragged through the streets of Brussels by their ears nailed to a truck bumper. Here's hoping.
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