Results

[don4l]

youngsyr said:

What's your point - is it that because the Remain campaign couldn't predict the future with 100% accuracy, everyone should have voted leave?

Remind me which of the Leave campaign's promises/predictions have come true?

To be fair, the problem isn't that the Remain campaign couldn't predict with 100% accuracy. The problem is that they had 0% accuracy.


Let's consider the facts.

The Remain said that they would win the referendum.

You cannot deny that this was a lie. Can you?

I would really like to be magnanimous in victory, but it would be much easier if the Remain side were magnanimous in defeat.

[Sam All]

AJS- said:

FiF said:

don4l said:

We appear to be witnessing the biggest mass sulk in history.

This ^^^, it is frankly pathetic.

Agreed. Very well put don.

The only consolation in all this is that it was not just a single vote that determined this historic decision. For else, it would be much worse.

[Einion Yrth]

Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of God type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

[don4l]

Sam All said:

AJS- said:

FiF said:

don4l said:

We appear to be witnessing the biggest mass sulk in history.

This ^^^, it is frankly pathetic.

Agreed. Very well put don.

The only consolation in all this is that it was not just a single vote that determined this historic decision. For else, it would be much worse.

I would be happier if the victory had been more emphatic. I genuinely believe that there has been manipulation of the postal votes.

I live in Surrey Heath. Almost everybody here is very Eurosceptic. Yet the result here was 51/49% in favour of exit. That simply does not make any sense. Surrey Heath should have gone about 75/25.

There are two things that need to happen.

1) We need to see if the percentages of the postal votes reflected the national average. Does anyone know if this information exists?

2) Ballot cards are traceable. We need to trace some "Remain" votes back to the people who cast them, and confirm that they were genuine.

It would be much easier to heal the divisions if the losers realised that they had been beaten by more than 10%.

[Trabi601]

don4l said:

I would be happier if the victory had been more emphatic. I genuinely believe that there has been manipulation of the postal votes.

I live in Surrey Heath. Almost everybody here is very Eurosceptic. Yet the result here was 51/49% in favour of exit. That simply does not make any sense. Surrey Heath should have gone about 75/25.

There are two things that need to happen.

1) We need to see if the percentages of the postal votes reflected the national average. Does anyone know if this information exists?

2) Ballot cards are traceable. We need to trace some "Remain" votes back to the people who cast them, and confirm that they were genuine.

It would be much easier to heal the divisions if the losers realised that they had been beaten by more than 10%.

But that's never going to happen. Because, despite your foil wearing hat protestations, there has been no electoral fraud.

You do understand, of course, that the whole point of our electoral system is that you don't trace the vote back to the person?

Mind you, you're some kind of far right stereotype nutjob, so it wouldn't surprise me if you wanted to keep a list of 'subversives' who were of an opposite view to yours.

[youngsyr]

don4l said:

youngsyr said:

What's your point - is it that because the Remain campaign couldn't predict the future with 100% accuracy, everyone should have voted leave?

Remind me which of the Leave campaign's promises/predictions have come true?

To be fair, the problem isn't that the Remain campaign couldn't predict with 100% accuracy. The problem is that they had 0% accuracy.


Let's consider the facts.

The Remain said that they would win the referendum.

You cannot deny that this was a lie. Can you?

I would really like to be magnanimous in victory, but it would be much easier if the Remain side were magnanimous in defeat.

Your post doesn't make any sense (a recurring theme I fear).

Are you honestly stating that none of the Remain predictions came true, despite the 6 listed above by Nick Clegg which have come true?

Which facts should we be considering - you say we should consider them, then go off on a tangent.

And how can a prediction be a lie? The definition of the two terms is mutually exclusive.

Then you finish with a meaningless cliche.

What exactly is your point?

[Mr2Mike]

youngsyr said:

Stickyfinger said:

youngsyr said:

Now compare that to where we were before the referendum was announced - it's the definition of instability.

We were under the yoke of an unelected bureaucracy presiding over a castrated EU Parliament which only functions by doing deals behind closed doors.

To me that is unstable and unsustainable, so your correct but not why you think.

Edited by Stickyfinger on Friday 1st July 16:36

Well, let's just say you have a very interesting definition of "stability", IMO.

You'll have to explain that for me. The EU's economy has hardly been a model of stability and it predicted to get much worse, so what definition are you referring to?

[AJS-]

Indeed.

The trouble is that it's more than just a sulk. They will try every trick in the book to reverse, ignore or fudge this and cling on.

Seeing the reaction since the vote I am more and more convinced that a full out and trade under normal WTO rules is the thing to aim for.

With intelligent and mature people on both sides far better could be achieved, but as things currently stand such people are in short supply anywhere.

[AJS-]

don4l said:

Sam All said:

AJS- said:

FiF said:

don4l said:

We appear to be witnessing the biggest mass sulk in history.

This ^^^, it is frankly pathetic.

Agreed. Very well put don.

The only consolation in all this is that it was not just a single vote that determined this historic decision. For else, it would be much worse.

I would be happier if the victory had been more emphatic. I genuinely believe that there has been manipulation of the postal votes.

I live in Surrey Heath. Almost everybody here is very Eurosceptic. Yet the result here was 51/49% in favour of exit. That simply does not make any sense. Surrey Heath should have gone about 75/25.

There are two things that need to happen.

1) We need to see if the percentages of the postal votes reflected the national average. Does anyone know if this information exists?

2) Ballot cards are traceable. We need to trace some "Remain" votes back to the people who cast them, and confirm that they were genuine.

It would be much easier to heal the divisions if the losers realised that they had been beaten by more than 10%.

I think it was pretty emphatic all things considered. As we were constantly reminded before the poll people don't vote to rock the boat when things are good, and all the silent remainers were going to come out and show us the error of our ways. Right enough Leave had no plan because Leave was not a party,so the added uncertainty would bring out the sensible, cautious middle ground to keep us in.

As it happened we won by a small but significant margin. The scare tactics didn't work. The silent, cautious middle ground decided to rock the boat because having an unelected and unaccountable government wasn't worth it. We took a risk to do that but everything is a risk.


We don't need to go back questioning remain voters or analysing different segments of the vote to see if they conform to some average. I have no difficulty believing that most were sincere people who thought that was the best path for the country to take.

We need to make sure that the will of the people is respected and the decision implemented, not fudged or delayed indefinitely, or even cynically reversed.

[Trabi601]

AJS- said:

As it happened we won by a small but significant margin. The scare tactics didn't work. The silent, cautious middle ground decided to rock the boat because having an unelected and unaccountable government wasn't worth it. We took a risk to do that but everything is a risk.

Unelected?

Are you sure about that? - because I distinctly remember voting for an MEP recently.

The so-called unelected politicians are little more than civil servants.

[Stickyfinger]

Trabi601 said:

Unelected?

Are you sure about that? - because I distinctly remember voting for an MEP recently.

The so-called unelected politicians are little more than civil servants.

And diluted by the bureaucrats to the point of pointless.....the system constructed by said bureaucrats makes it totally undemocratic.
It is a modern Soviet simple as that.

So yes, I for one am sure.

Edited by Stickyfinger on Friday 1st July 20:47

[Sam All]

Trabi601 said:

AJS- said:

As it happened we won by a small but significant margin. The scare tactics didn't work. The silent, cautious middle ground decided to rock the boat because having an unelected and unaccountable government wasn't worth it. We took a risk to do that but everything is a risk.

Unelected?

Are you sure about that? - because I distinctly remember voting for an MEP recently.

The so-called unelected politicians are little more than civil servants.

Excellent - so if Merkel wants Juncker out, will he succeed in resisting her charm?

[AJS-]

Trabi601 said:

Unelected?

Are you sure about that? - because I distinctly remember voting for an MEP recently.

The so-called unelected politicians are little more than civil servants.

I'm sure. But that argument is over. We have voted to leave and the important question is what we do next, and how.

[Trabi601]

Stickyfinger said:

And diluted by the bureaucrats to the point of pointless.....the system constructed by said bureaucrats makes it totally undemocratic.

So yes, I for one am sure.

Much the same could be said of the UK. You don't think the civil servants will let the MPs do anything too radical, do you?

[Stickyfinger]

Sam All said:

Excellent - so if Merkel wants Juncker out, will he succeed in resisting her charm?

Who heads the Politburo ?

Better to ask if Cameron wanted Juncker out ?

Trabi601 said:

Stickyfinger said:

And diluted by the bureaucrats to the point of pointless.....the system constructed by said bureaucrats makes it totally undemocratic.

So yes, I for one am sure.

Much the same could be said of the UK. You don't think the civil servants will let the MPs do anything too radical, do you?

What, like call a referendum on leaving the EU ?

Edited by Stickyfinger on Friday 1st July 20:53

[Trabi601]

Stickyfinger said:

What, like call a referendum on leaving the EU ?

We haven't actually left yet.

[s2art]

Trabi601 said:

Much the same could be said of the UK. You don't think the civil servants will let the MPs do anything too radical, do you?

Tell that to the civil service during the Thatcher era.

[Sway]

Elysium said:

Sway said:

I'm on record as stating I didn't feel that Brexit was a land of milk and honey, and that I'd likely be economically effected. Yet in my opinion that was worth it. Hopefully you'd agree that as an individual I do have decent comprehension and logical skills, so mine wasn't an ill thought through vote, as many are in any public vote.

I think this is the nub of the matter. Some people will be more profoundly affected by Brexit than others. For example we will still need domestic plumbers in or out of the EU.

However, if you work in industries with significant exposure to the EU markets or those that may be hit hardest by a UK recession you will suffer more. I think that office development in London, the residential housing market and financial services will all be hit to some extent.

So, some people will hardly notice the downside of Brexit, but others will have a difficult time and potentially even lose their jobs. I see the risk to my job and financial security as significant.

I think the upside is similarly mixed. I have no axe to grind with the EU and do not believe that we are at risk of being tricked into joining a European superstate. I also think that access to the single market is worth more than the amount we pay to the EU. I don't have an issue with freedom of movement and my life has not been affected by issues around immigration. I do consider that the EU is overly bureaucratic and would welcome some simplification of process and law. But I don't think a stand alone UK will be much better.

So for me, Brexit is almost exclusively downside risk. On that basis, I can't possibly agree with those who feel it is 'worth it'.

This is not just a selfish viewpoint as, so far as I can really see, the upsides that people are hoping for have no value. In summary, some people will suffer and none will significantly gain = not worth it!

I do understand your view, I personally consider the upside benefits more tangible and considerable than you and think the downsides of the EU's philosophy and structure are more acute.

I'm also (with no intention of an impression of piety) thinking long term - not a decade or two, but several decades. When we joined, the world was dominated by big clubs who hated each other. Strength was decided by size.

That's changed. If anything, the rise of personal technology and communication has led to a far bigger upside to being small, flexible and agile. Ability to adapt is king.

I feel that we're far better able to recognise challenges, adapt and thrive with them as the UK. A nation of inventors, that culture still holds strong.

I also look at the history of the EU. At no point, not one, has there been any contraction in it's reach and scope. Incremental or large, the direction of travel has been one way. In my opinion, any image of democracy is veneer thin at best, and I cannot support that.

Regardless of vote, it's done. We can look backwards and fight for rerun, or loophole, or whatever - all that does is prolong the agony, if that's what you believe is occurring currently. The game has shifted, and we as the electorate need to adapt to suit (leave or remain) - worrying about the referendum or the last week's activity in the markets won't improve the situation - engaging with the new paradigm and helping to shape it to the best for all in the circumstances is the key to the country getting back to thriving.

We are leaving the EU. We're more than capable of thriving long term in any environment, but if we keep fannying about moaning (not directed at anyone specific) then we're risking missing the opportunities (and there are lots) that are on the table...

[Robertj21a]

don4l said:

We appear to be witnessing the biggest mass sulk in history.

Quite agree. I know it's only a week so far but I never expected to read so many sore losers who just don't get it. Some must be so used to doing whatever they want, regardless of consequence, that they find it difficult to accept that someone can actually say 'NO' to them.

Getting a bit too much like the utterly spoilt brat that lives along my road !

[fatboy18]

Pulled up outside a business today to do some repairs in their office, company owner met me and said you will have to remove those flags off your van as England are out of the football now, I then explained to him they were not there for the football