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[Disastrous]

AJS- said:

Disastrous said:

I hope you realise I'm being flippant but in case you think I'm serious, a more honest answer would be:

I don't know if there is such a thing as a right and wrong decision in this. Only time will tell I suppose.

That said, I voted for the option that caused the least disruption and uncertainty/loss of income for me and my business.

AJS appears to have voluntarily voted for something to his own personal cost. Principles are admirable but to me that is a wrong decision.

As always, each to their own and I hope my flippancy is implicit.

Everyone makes compromises, to me the right and wrong was too clear to be swung by a fairly short term financial interest being possibly jeopardised.

Risk rather than cost, for a reward that I wouldn't quantify in cash.

Of course if I really believed that I would be left in grinding poverty for the rest of my life by leaving then it might be different, but I don't that for one minute. And more importantly if that was the case then there would be something much better about the EU or much worse about Britain than I currently see.

That's fair enough AJS. I disagree of course, but I can't really find fault with anyone who has considered options and made their own decision.

[chris watton]

Oh look, according to this Ipsos MORI poll only 3% of Leavers regret their votes. And 4% of Remainers regret theirs! (From a Brendan O Neil post)

[Disastrous]

B'stard Child said:

Disastrous said:

AJS- said:

paul789 said:

Ok, out of interest - 2 questions (Would normally start a new thread) Which way did you
Vote? If employed, how long could you survive if you lost your job tomorrow?

Me, remain (agonised over it), 2 years.

Self employed. Could last until about Thursday lunchtime.

Voted Leave because it's a once in my lifetime chance to assert the most valuable thing that most of us have, namely the privilege of living in a democratic country where the people elect and kick out those who run the country.

And money where my mouth is, I checked the shares I have on the day of the results and all were down hugely. The contract I am on will probably keep me around Europe for the next couple of years, so could potentially be difficult. Didn't waver for a second.

See also: Turkeys voting for Christmas

So are you going to take the same stance with every reply that states leave and reason??

I only ask because that indicates to me that (despite agonising over it for 2 years which indicates that you considered for a long time before voting remain) you are very dismissive of any reply that isn't aligned with your own viewpoint and that's hardly going to make even a remotely interesting debate and consequently a piss poor thread....

But I'll give you another chance

I voted leave

Firstly because I don't see a future in the EU - it's flawed and I believe corrupt and we already have a layer of government in the UK we don't need another layer. My hope is that a leave vote either gets us out or begins a process or reversal for the European Superstate.

Secondly because whilst I agree that immigration can be a good thing I have first hand experience of what uncontrolled immigration can do to a small market town in rural Norfolk and it's not pleasant. I am not xenophobic or racist I work with people from Spain, Portugal, Poland and all and have a good working relationship with them all but whilst they were not entitled to vote many have said to me that they would have voted leave

I have no doubt that I will probably have some short term personal pain but I've been through a recession where interest rates were 17% and I had to work two jobs to keep my house - I don't anticipate that it will be anything like as bad as it was in the 80's but if I need to make sacrifices I will.

I'd posted a few posts later to clarify that I was being flippant.

I don't think we'll see eye to eye but of course your reasons are your own. To me, the EU is of course a corrupt entity but what isn't? I don't think it's really any better or worse than our own rotten politically and for me, the benefits of being close to Europe outweigh the risks of leaving.

Let's not get into immigration though. I think everyone feels quite strongly one way or the other and what someone says on the internet is unlikely to make them change their minds.

[B'stard Child]

Disastrous said:

B'stard Child said:

Disastrous said:

AJS- said:

paul789 said:

Ok, out of interest - 2 questions (Would normally start a new thread) Which way did you
Vote? If employed, how long could you survive if you lost your job tomorrow?

Me, remain (agonised over it), 2 years.

Self employed. Could last until about Thursday lunchtime.

Voted Leave because it's a once in my lifetime chance to assert the most valuable thing that most of us have, namely the privilege of living in a democratic country where the people elect and kick out those who run the country.

And money where my mouth is, I checked the shares I have on the day of the results and all were down hugely. The contract I am on will probably keep me around Europe for the next couple of years, so could potentially be difficult. Didn't waver for a second.

See also: Turkeys voting for Christmas

So are you going to take the same stance with every reply that states leave and reason??

I only ask because that indicates to me that (despite agonising over it for 2 years which indicates that you considered for a long time before voting remain) you are very dismissive of any reply that isn't aligned with your own viewpoint and that's hardly going to make even a remotely interesting debate and consequently a piss poor thread....

But I'll give you another chance

I voted leave

Firstly because I don't see a future in the EU - it's flawed and I believe corrupt and we already have a layer of government in the UK we don't need another layer. My hope is that a leave vote either gets us out or begins a process or reversal for the European Superstate.

Secondly because whilst I agree that immigration can be a good thing I have first hand experience of what uncontrolled immigration can do to a small market town in rural Norfolk and it's not pleasant. I am not xenophobic or racist I work with people from Spain, Portugal, Poland and all and have a good working relationship with them all but whilst they were not entitled to vote many have said to me that they would have voted leave

I have no doubt that I will probably have some short term personal pain but I've been through a recession where interest rates were 17% and I had to work two jobs to keep my house - I don't anticipate that it will be anything like as bad as it was in the 80's but if I need to make sacrifices I will.

I'd posted a few posts later to clarify that I was being flippant.

Awww cock - I hadn't finished catching up with the thread before I replied - sorry

Disastrous said:

I don't think we'll see eye to eye but of course your reasons are your own. To me, the EU is of course a corrupt entity but what isn't? I don't think it's really any better or worse than our own rotten politically and for me, the benefits of being close to Europe outweigh the risks of leaving.

Let's not get into immigration though. I think everyone feels quite strongly one way or the other and what someone says on the internet is unlikely to make them change their minds.

Probably right but for the same reasons I felt better to leave than be part of it - I never have been one for the status quo - if you never take a risk you never grow

[WCZ]

chris watton said:

Oh look, according to this Ipsos MORI poll only 3% of Leavers regret their votes. And 4% of Remainers regret theirs! (From a Brendan O Neil post)

what? why would any remainer regret their vote, isn't that a pardox ?

[fluffnik]

Stickyfinger said:

from one Scotsman to another

ste film, I grew up in Lanark where Walace made his first kill, I know he wasn't a nice man...

If Billy had been paying more attention on his brief visits home, he might have noticed the inclusive nature of SNP (inter)nationalism as illustrated by broad franchise in the Independence Referendum, so unlike the local votes for local people approach of the EU referendum.

Stickyfinger said:

BTW, I am a proud Scot as well and I would like to remind you the people of Scotland, by a "once in a lifetime" referendum rejected the SNP's call.

One of the major planks of the "No" campaign was that a No vote would secure EU membership.

It seems that EU citizenship is more popular than British citizenship in Scotland, which is a fairly material circumstance...

[wc98]

fluffnik said:

One of the major planks of the "No" campaign was that a No vote would secure EU membership.

It seems that EU citizenship is more popular than British citizenship in Scotland, which is a fairly material circumstance...

jesus christ. i have to say i admire your tenacity if not your delusion. how much would you like to bet against any new scottish indy ref returning the same result ,an emphatic "no" just like the last time.

[Stickyfinger]

same st that the SNP spouts, you have it taped brother Scot..........still bullst however

[Disastrous]

B'stard Child said:

Probably right but for the same reasons I felt better to leave than be part of it - I never have been one for the status quo - if you never take a risk you never grow

I'd generally agree with that and am all for personal risk taking, physical risks, entrepreneurial risks. I just feel that when lots of people are affected by the outcome it changes the game a bit.

For example, I love riding motorbikes, but I wouldn't be so keen if by having an accident then my family were automatically killed, for example.

I guess I see risk as a personal thing.

[B'stard Child]

Disastrous said:

B'stard Child said:

Probably right but for the same reasons I felt better to leave than be part of it - I never have been one for the status quo - if you never take a risk you never grow

I'd generally agree with that and am all for personal risk taking, physical risks, entrepreneurial risks. I just feel that when lots of people are affected by the outcome it changes the game a bit.

Just discussing like we would chatting in a pub over a beer

We had a recession driven by risk taking in financial sector that wasn't driven by a decision I had any part in. Do you think anyone involved cared about the risk and the fact that it impacted lots of people across the world - did it change their game?

Disastrous said:

For example, I love riding motorbikes, but I wouldn't be so keen if by having an accident then my family were automatically killed, for example.

I guess I see risk as a personal thing.

I guess we all do - I also felt that remain was a bigger risk long term..... Things will change if we exit and I'll never know if I was right to feel that way. If the exit doesn't happen then I'll never know either way.

[Esseesse]

chris watton said:

Oh look, according to this Ipsos MORI poll only 3% of Leavers regret their votes. And 4% of Remainers regret theirs! (From a Brendan O Neil post)

Although this would be easy to jump on from a Leave perspective, I think it just shows that after people make decisions, most are happy after, and some are not so sure and/or change their mind. I suspect that both leave and remain vote regreters are within the normal range, there is not an overwhelming or unusual number of people who wished they had voted remain.

[Disastrous]

B'stard Child said:

Disastrous said:

B'stard Child said:

Probably right but for the same reasons I felt better to leave than be part of it - I never have been one for the status quo - if you never take a risk you never grow

I'd generally agree with that and am all for personal risk taking, physical risks, entrepreneurial risks. I just feel that when lots of people are affected by the outcome it changes the game a bit.

Just discussing like we would chatting in a pub over a beer

We had a recession driven by risk taking in financial sector that wasn't driven by a decision I had any part in. Do you think anyone involved cared about the risk and the fact that it impacted lots of people across the world - did it change their game?

Totally valid point and the answer would have to be of course that they didn't think twice about anyone else and got stuck straight in! I've not got much love for them either it must be said.

Like I said to AJS though, the difference between your attitude and a lot of the people that make me gnash my teeth about this is that your motives seem considered, moderate and well-meaning. I can't take issue with anyone's vote if it's coming from the same motivational base as my own but just arrived at a different answer. That's perfectly valid in my eyes - people often disagree on the best way to the right result and neither can really show that they are definitely right or wrong so unfair to castigate someone over it.

I've just seen and heard so many people who have made their decision on this based on actual lies from the Leave campaign (though let's not get that one going again!), fear of 'foreigners', protest at 'arrogant' Tories etc. that I fear that many have made this decision for the wrong reasons. That scares me a bit. Not to mention halfwits like don4l who seem to base their entire political personae on the notion of 'winding up lefties' which is a terrifyingly childish way to make big decisions and debate issues.

So I suppose in summary what I'm getting at is that I'm not especially bothered by people voting whichever way they please. I'm just bothered by people using the power of their vote recklessly and irresponsibly, without doing any of the homework first. I don't consider you in that category at all and it's actually quite nice to have a civil discussion about it on here. It can be too easy to immediately snap to 'attack mode' in this place...

[Stickyfinger]

Disastrous said:

Totally valid point and the answer would have to be of course that they didn't think twice about anyone else and got stuck straight in! I've not got much love for them either it must be said.

Like I said to AJS though, the difference between your attitude and a lot of the people that make me gnash my teeth about this is that your motives seem considered, moderate and well-meaning. I can't take issue with anyone's vote if it's coming from the same motivational base as my own but just arrived at a different answer. That's perfectly valid in my eyes - people often disagree on the best way to the right result and neither can really show that they are definitely right or wrong so unfair to castigate someone over it.

I've just seen and heard so many people who have made their decision on this based on actual lies from the Leave campaign (though let's not get that one going again!), fear of 'foreigners', protest at 'arrogant' Tories etc. that I fear that many have made this decision for the wrong reasons. That scares me a bit. Not to mention halfwits like don4l who seem to base their entire political personae on the notion of 'winding up lefties' which is a terrifyingly childish way to make big decisions and debate issues.

So I suppose in summary what I'm getting at is that I'm not especially bothered by people voting whichever way they please. I'm just bothered by people using the power of their vote recklessly and irresponsibly, without doing any of the homework first. I don't consider you in that category at all and it's actually quite nice to have a civil discussion about it on here. It can be too easy to immediately snap to 'attack mode' in this place...

Valid points, points that could be matched to any General Election as well.
So how do we filter out the voting rights of the Wind up merchants, or those that are irresponsible or stupid ?

[don4l]

Disastrous said:

I've just seen and heard so many people who have made their decision on this based on actual lies from the Leave campaign (though let's not get that one going again!), fear of 'foreigners', protest at 'arrogant' Tories etc. that I fear that many have made this decision for the wrong reasons. That scares me a bit. Not to mention halfwits like don4l who seem to base their entire political personae on the notion of 'winding up lefties' which is a terrifyingly childish way to make big decisions and debate issues.

I've explained my reasons for voting Leave many times. They are primarily economic, and based on the fact that I believe that EU Regulations account for 5% of business costs.

However, when I have tried to discuss these issues, I get told that I am an old, white, uneducated racist who wants to kick all the foreigners out. You have actually done it again just above.

Earlier today, I mentioned that I do not feel it is necessary to negotiate a trade deal with the EU. My point was dismissed as a "typical Kipper" viewpoint. Not even the faintest effort to consider the benefits or costs of any deal.

[rscott]

don4l said:

Disastrous said:

I've just seen and heard so many people who have made their decision on this based on actual lies from the Leave campaign (though let's not get that one going again!), fear of 'foreigners', protest at 'arrogant' Tories etc. that I fear that many have made this decision for the wrong reasons. That scares me a bit. Not to mention halfwits like don4l who seem to base their entire political personae on the notion of 'winding up lefties' which is a terrifyingly childish way to make big decisions and debate issues.

I've explained my reasons for voting Leave many times. They are primarily economic, and based on the fact that I believe that EU Regulations account for 5% of business costs.

However, when I have tried to discuss these issues, I get told that I am an old, white, uneducated racist who wants to kick all the foreigners out. You have actually done it again just above.

Earlier today, I mentioned that I do not feel it is necessary to negotiate a trade deal with the EU. My point was dismissed as a "typical Kipper" viewpoint. Not even the faintest effort to consider the benefits or costs of any deal.

It's odd - you claim that you believe EU Regulations account for 5% of business costs, yet when asked for specific examples of EU Regulations which have caused problems (over in the other thread), you've not been able to give a single example which affects your business.
The only one you've mentioned was RoHS, variants of which are being implemented in many non-EU countries anyway.

[Disastrous]

Oh I wouldn't say that don4l. I'd say you were an opportunistic immigrant who wants to pull the ladder up behind him now he's over the wall...

[walm]

don4l said:

I've explained my reasons for voting Leave many times. They are primarily economic, and based on the fact that I believe that EU Regulations account for 5% of business costs.

However, when I have tried to discuss these issues, I get told that I am an old, white, uneducated racist who wants to kick all the foreigners out. You have actually done it again just above.

Earlier today, I mentioned that I do not feel it is necessary to negotiate a trade deal with the EU. My point was dismissed as a "typical Kipper" viewpoint. Not even the faintest effort to consider the benefits or costs of any deal.

You are a grade A moron if you think there is no need to negotiate a trade deal with the EU.

You are also a grade A moron if you think that EU regulations account for 5% of business costs.
Citation needed.

Here's mine: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...

[HappyMidget]

walm said:

grade A moron

grade A moron

Really not helping your position there...

[walm]

HappyMidget said:

walm said:

grade A moron

grade A moron

Really not helping your position there...

Trust me.
He has form.

[B'stard Child]

Disastrous said:

B'stard Child said:

Disastrous said:

B'stard Child said:

Probably right but for the same reasons I felt better to leave than be part of it - I never have been one for the status quo - if you never take a risk you never grow

I'd generally agree with that and am all for personal risk taking, physical risks, entrepreneurial risks. I just feel that when lots of people are affected by the outcome it changes the game a bit.

Just discussing like we would chatting in a pub over a beer

We had a recession driven by risk taking in financial sector that wasn't driven by a decision I had any part in. Do you think anyone involved cared about the risk and the fact that it impacted lots of people across the world - did it change their game?

Totally valid point and the answer would have to be of course that they didn't think twice about anyone else and got stuck straight in! I've not got much love for them either it must be said.

Nice to see we have agreement

Disastrous said:

Like I said to AJS though, the difference between your attitude and a lot of the people that make me gnash my teeth about this is that your motives seem considered, moderate and well-meaning. I can't take issue with anyone's vote if it's coming from the same motivational base as my own but just arrived at a different answer. That's perfectly valid in my eyes - people often disagree on the best way to the right result and neither can really show that they are definitely right or wrong so unfair to castigate someone over it.

I've just seen and heard so many people who have made their decision on this based on actual lies from the Leave campaign (though let's not get that one going again!), fear of 'foreigners', protest at 'arrogant' Tories etc. that I fear that many have made this decision for the wrong reasons. That scares me a bit. Not to mention halfwits like don4l who seem to base their entire political personae on the notion of 'winding up lefties' which is a terrifyingly childish way to make big decisions and debate issues.

So I suppose in summary what I'm getting at is that I'm not especially bothered by people voting whichever way they please. I'm just bothered by people using the power of their vote recklessly and irresponsibly, without doing any of the homework first. I don't consider you in that category at all and it's actually quite nice to have a civil discussion about it on here. It can be too easy to immediately snap to 'attack mode' in this place...

From my perspective it's refreshing to have a discussion where you are prepared to listen to me and I'm more than happy to listen to you - it's not going to change the way either of us voted but it's a damn good way to get perspective on the "other" point of view.

I've said elsewhere that I think a number of people voted because they weren't being listened to.... This was a way they felt could be heard - not condoning it or making excuses for them - kinda says something about our democracy in not a nice way.

On the other hand there may well be a similar number of people who faced with the awful campaigning on both sides decided that they couldn't see the wood from the trees and voted to remain as it was for the "status quo" without giving it any further thought or investigation - equally poor in my opinion

The campaign actions from both sides polarized opinions and in not a nice way - to me that was the really sad thing about the run up to the referendum

For me the mistake was made by DC in getting so heavily involved - he made it about him........