2nd Referendum please - I don't like how that one panned out
Discussion
If this referendum was such a great example of democracy in action, why don't we just do away with politicians altogether and make every decision that way?
Calling people sore losers or cry babies is just a massive trivialisation and a huge misjudgement of the mood of nearly half the country. This isn't a game of footy, many are now extremely worried about their future, and the leavers haven't actually won anything. Apologies for the Noel Edmonds based analogy but we've been forced to play 'deal or no deal' against our will, chucked away a guaranteed offer and Vote Leave are cheering before we've even opened the box.
Still, least our political parties haven't imploded at the worst possible time.
Calling people sore losers or cry babies is just a massive trivialisation and a huge misjudgement of the mood of nearly half the country. This isn't a game of footy, many are now extremely worried about their future, and the leavers haven't actually won anything. Apologies for the Noel Edmonds based analogy but we've been forced to play 'deal or no deal' against our will, chucked away a guaranteed offer and Vote Leave are cheering before we've even opened the box.
Still, least our political parties haven't imploded at the worst possible time.
Edited by mdavids on Sunday 26th June 19:04
mdavids said:
If this referendum was such a great example of democracy in action, why don't we just do away with politicians altogether and make every decision that way?
I would have thought that was blatantly obvious?mdavids said:
Calling people sore losers or cry babies is just a massive trivialsation and a huge misjudgement of the mood of nearly half the country.
Are half the country whinging about the outcome?mdavids said:
This isn't a game of footy, many are now extremely worried about their future, and the leavers haven't actually won anything. Apologies for the Noel Edmonds based analogy but we've been forced to play 'deal or no deal' against our will, chucked away a guarnateed offer and Vote Leave are cheering before we've even opened the box.
More accurately the losers - I mean 'retainers' - are crying foul about disaster scenarios before any details have been agreed.mdavids said:
If this referendum was such a great example of democracy in action, why don't we just do away with politicians altogether and make every decision that way?
Because the second part of your statement doesn't follow from the first.The use of referenda in the UK applies to questions of major constitutional significance.
Very few political decisions are of that magnitude so very few referenda occur in the UK.
Even with some form of electonic voting system that was at least as fraud-proof as the current system, having referenda over minutiae would clog up the wheels of government and make governing less efficient and less effective for the mandarins charged with real work.
People voting every day on all manner of minor political decisions would switch people off in droves. This would risk take-over of the democratic process by activists and zealots even more than happens now.
If we did away with politicians who would represent this country at the international level, how would they be chosen, would they become known as politicians and would we vote for our preference. Back to black
I'm tempted to suggest you didn't think that through but I don't want to add to any divisions in society so peace be unto you and may your next cup of tea taste yummy. Or coffee if you don't like tea, or...(etc).
sidicks said:
mdavids said:
Calling people sore losers or cry babies is just a massive trivialsation and a huge misjudgement of the mood of nearly half the country.
Are half the country whinging about the outcome?In general if a sore loser is a sore loser because they act like one they may get called a sore loser. Accuracy in action.
The result is out, the country should move on.
Tannedbaldhead said:
I'll go along with that as long as "leave" keeps one promise. That is that the UK will fund every project funded by the EU and that noone will lose out. A promise is a promise. None of this there is no magic money tree nonsense. There is a tree now so lets give it a shake. (after all, we are £350 million a week better off now). If I had contracts to work on on Thursday the deal is they should be there on Monday regardless.
You are totally missing the point. The decisions as to where to spend the money that went to the EU, some of which came back to fund your projects, will in future be made by a democratically elected UK govt. They will either:
A) Spend it on your project, so your mates still get your new cars exactly as before.
or
B) Decide that some other project is more important than yours so someone else gets the new cars and your mates are stuck with Citroens. Nice for the other guys but disappointing for you. But nevertheless a personal disappointment not a calamity to the economy in the way you seem to imagine. And if you really don't like it you can always vote for someone else to be government, as option you don't have when it's the EU making the decisions.
sidicks said:
mdavids said:
If this referendum was such a great example of democracy in action, why don't we just do away with politicians altogether and make every decision that way?
I would have thought that was blatantly obvious?mdavids said:
Calling people sore losers or cry babies is just a massive trivialsation and a huge misjudgement of the mood of nearly half the country.
Are half the country whinging about the outcome?mdavids said:
This isn't a game of footy, many are now extremely worried about their future, and the leavers haven't actually won anything. Apologies for the Noel Edmonds based analogy but we've been forced to play 'deal or no deal' against our will, chucked away a guarnateed offer and Vote Leave are cheering before we've even opened the box.
More accurately the losers - I mean 'retainers' - are crying foul about disaster scenarios before any details have been agreed.mdavids said:
, many are now extremely worried about their future,
Me. I was pretty soft Remain seesawing to Leave when I saw how badly run the EU is. One day after the Referendum I am certain I am £4k out of pocket in bonuses earned from my employer after gaining Inner city regeneration contracts. I face redundancy within the next year to year and a half. My industry is f
ked and my prospect of gaining a similar job on a similar salary is fked with it. I am now rabid remain. My dad chose an income drawdown from an investment fund as annuities were such poor value at the time of his retirement. He lost the best part of six months pension payments in a day. He was more sympathetic to Brexit (as old farts are) but voted Remain as he knew where his bread was buttered. He is equally shifted in his position on the spectrum. like I said before a very small proportion of leave voters need to be hurt or frightened to change side for the result to be overturned. If a second referendum can be engineered it will. If the vote is more Remain friendly then it will be the democratic will of the people at the time and at a time when the people are more aware of the consequences of their choice.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Me. I was pretty soft Remain seesawing to Leave when I saw how badly run the EU is. One after the Referendum I am certain I am £4k out of pocket in bonuses earned from my employer after gaining Inner city regeneration contracts. I face redundancy within the next year to year and a half. My industry is fked and my prospect of gaining a similar job on a similar salary is fked with it. I am now rabid remain. My dad chose an income drawdown from an investment fund as annuities were such poor value at the time of his retirement. He lost the best part of six months pension payments in a day. He was more sympathetic to Brexit (as old farts are) but voted Remain as he knew where his bread was buttered. He is equally shifted in his position on the spectrum.
like I said before a very small proportion of leave voters need to be hurt or frightened to change side for the result to be overturned. If a second referendum can be engineered it will. If the vote is more Remain friendly then it will be the democratic will of the people at the time and at a time when the people are more aware of the consequences of their choice.
What do you do if you re-run and get 49/51 to Leave... Re-run again, to be really really sure?ked and my prospect of gaining a similar job on a similar salary is fked with it. I am now rabid remain. My dad chose an income drawdown from an investment fund as annuities were such poor value at the time of his retirement. He lost the best part of six months pension payments in a day. He was more sympathetic to Brexit (as old farts are) but voted Remain as he knew where his bread was buttered. He is equally shifted in his position on the spectrum. like I said before a very small proportion of leave voters need to be hurt or frightened to change side for the result to be overturned. If a second referendum can be engineered it will. If the vote is more Remain friendly then it will be the democratic will of the people at the time and at a time when the people are more aware of the consequences of their choice.
easytiger123 said:
VolvoT5 said:
^ This is what I was getting at. I know it sounds a bit tin foil hat but I'm pretty sure only 1 in 50 voters would have to change their mind in a second referendum. Plus turn out amongst young people who generally vote remain was poor, my guess is more of them could be mobilised a second time around once they realise the importance. There would probably not be as much enthusiasm in the leave camp second time around either. My guess is remain would win very easily.
My guess is you are dead wrong. Telling people sorry, you didn't do what you were told by the grown-ups the first time so now we're having a do-over, will spark a complete revolt against all forms of political parties and government in this country and vote Leave would become a vast popular movement that would win by a bigger margin just to see if some career politicians would dare defy the electorate a second time. turbobloke said:
sidicks said:
mdavids said:
Calling people sore losers or cry babies is just a massive trivialsation and a huge misjudgement of the mood of nearly half the country.
Are half the country whinging about the outcome?In general if a sore loser is a sore loser because they act like one they may get called a sore loser. Accuracy in action.
The result is out, the country should move on.
Or if you like, just a sore loser
The first place I saw it linked was slashdot, easily capable of generating more than enough traction and at that point it was 100k already by the time I'd posted it on FB, signed it and ack the email it was up to 130k and continued to grow fast all evening.
I said a botnet was unnecessary and IMHO not indicated by the evidence. I didn't rule it out, it is possible just unlikely.
Tor, Headless Chrome, Selenium WebDriver, very easy. My most junior guys could do that in a hour or so. It doesn't need any exception skills. Distributing this to a botnet requires more work, customisation and distribution that is unnecessary for the task. A botnet is an unsafe automatic assumption.
You are assuming the IP address is used by the site for location tracking, however there is no evidence to suggest this and it is unnecessary. It also doesn't actually align with the feature behaviour. Look at the json data and map it drives, it is broken down by parliamentary constituency from the address post code and country on the form.
If North Korea were behind it for geopolitical reason, I very much doubt it would be so obvious and readily detectable by such obvious means available to us. Plausible data again.
The very obvious falseness of the data is the biggest clue.
I said a botnet was unnecessary and IMHO not indicated by the evidence. I didn't rule it out, it is possible just unlikely.
Tor, Headless Chrome, Selenium WebDriver, very easy. My most junior guys could do that in a hour or so. It doesn't need any exception skills. Distributing this to a botnet requires more work, customisation and distribution that is unnecessary for the task. A botnet is an unsafe automatic assumption.
You are assuming the IP address is used by the site for location tracking, however there is no evidence to suggest this and it is unnecessary. It also doesn't actually align with the feature behaviour. Look at the json data and map it drives, it is broken down by parliamentary constituency from the address post code and country on the form.
If North Korea were behind it for geopolitical reason, I very much doubt it would be so obvious and readily detectable by such obvious means available to us. Plausible data again.
The very obvious falseness of the data is the biggest clue.
Edited by 4x4Tyke on Sunday 26th June 19:41
CrutyRammers said:
easytiger123 said:
VolvoT5 said:
^ This is what I was getting at. I know it sounds a bit tin foil hat but I'm pretty sure only 1 in 50 voters would have to change their mind in a second referendum. Plus turn out amongst young people who generally vote remain was poor, my guess is more of them could be mobilised a second time around once they realise the importance. There would probably not be as much enthusiasm in the leave camp second time around either. My guess is remain would win very easily.
My guess is you are dead wrong. Telling people sorry, you didn't do what you were told by the grown-ups the first time so now we're having a do-over, will spark a complete revolt against all forms of political parties and government in this country and vote Leave would become a vast popular movement that would win by a bigger margin just to see if some career politicians would dare defy the electorate a second time. VolvoT5 said:
If you are just going to throw cheap insults rather than engage with the points made, why bother posting at all?
Sorry, I just honestly couldn't believe that you wrote what you did.Of course there's not going to be another Referendum, nor will there be some conspiracy to unduly delay Section 50. It's just not going to happen.
If there was to be any such tinkering with democracy I'm sure there would be many millions of UK voters (of all colours and persuasions) who would immediately cry 'Foul' and highlight the enormous risk for all of us in future times.
I know it's only 4 days but some Remainers really do need to accept that we are going for Brexit.
WonkeyDonkey said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
How many boys are in the same boat as our soil samplers and analysts who have been told that the Leave vote cost them their new Nissan Navaras leaving them stuck in their 3 year old Berlingos might change their minds?
Oh the humanity!How will the world survive when soil samplers have to plod around in Citroen Berlingo's!
If you're that easily bribed into casting your vote then maybe you shouldn't really have a say.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Me. I was pretty soft Remain seesawing to Leave when I saw how badly run the EU is. One day after the Referendum I am certain I am £4k out of pocket in bonuses earned from my employer after gaining Inner city regeneration contracts. I face redundancy within the next year to year and a half. My industry is fked and my prospect of gaining a similar job on a similar salary is fked with it. I am now rabid remain. My dad chose an income drawdown from an investment fund as annuities were such poor value at the time of his retirement. He lost the best part of six months pension payments in a day. He was more sympathetic to Brexit (as old farts are) but voted Remain as he knew where his bread was buttered. He is equally shifted in his position on the spectrum.
like I said before a very small proportion of leave voters need to be hurt or frightened to change side for the result to be overturned. If a second referendum can be engineered it will. If the vote is more Remain friendly then it will be the democratic will of the people at the time and at a time when the people are more aware of the consequences of their choice.
My situation, Global company, probably the most important local employer, 6500 direct and 30000 indirect jobs. Here mainly because of free access to the EU. Has to compete with European manufacturing plants for new business every couple of years.ked and my prospect of gaining a similar job on a similar salary is fked with it. I am now rabid remain. My dad chose an income drawdown from an investment fund as annuities were such poor value at the time of his retirement. He lost the best part of six months pension payments in a day. He was more sympathetic to Brexit (as old farts are) but voted Remain as he knew where his bread was buttered. He is equally shifted in his position on the spectrum. like I said before a very small proportion of leave voters need to be hurt or frightened to change side for the result to be overturned. If a second referendum can be engineered it will. If the vote is more Remain friendly then it will be the democratic will of the people at the time and at a time when the people are more aware of the consequences of their choice.
I think/hope we'll be okay but there's a little bit of wishful thinking in there. Reality is, if import tariffs are introduced we'll either close or downsize in a couple of years. Shop floor lads will be working even harder (its already incredibly hard work) for no pay rise, I'm indirect and office based so may escape any initial cut back (wishful thinking again)
Ironically most of the local populace voted leave. For me the best that will come out of this is no change.
mdavids said:
My situation, Global company, probably the most important local employer, 6500 direct and 30000 indirect jobs. Here mainly because of free access to the EU. Has to compete with European manufacturing plants for new business every couple of years.
I think/hope we'll be okay but there's a little bit of wishful thinking in there. Reality is, if import tariffs are introduced we'll either close or downsize in a couple of years. Shop floor lads will be working even harder (its already incredibly hard work) for no pay rise, I'm indirect and office based so may escape any initial cut back (wishful thinking again)
Ironically most of the local populace voted leave. For me the best that will come out of this is no change.
Why would we impose import tariffs?I think/hope we'll be okay but there's a little bit of wishful thinking in there. Reality is, if import tariffs are introduced we'll either close or downsize in a couple of years. Shop floor lads will be working even harder (its already incredibly hard work) for no pay rise, I'm indirect and office based so may escape any initial cut back (wishful thinking again)
Ironically most of the local populace voted leave. For me the best that will come out of this is no change.
mdavids said:
My situation, Global company, probably the most important local employer, 6500 direct and 30000 indirect jobs. Here mainly because of free access to the EU. Has to compete with European manufacturing plants for new business every couple of years.
I think/hope we'll be okay but there's a little bit of wishful thinking in there. Reality is, if import tariffs are introduced we'll either close or downsize in a couple of years. Shop floor lads will be working even harder (its already incredibly hard work) for no pay rise, I'm indirect and office based so may escape any initial cut back (wishful thinking again)
Ironically most of the local populace voted leave. For me the best that will come out of this is no change.
No chance of new opportunities elsewhere Far East, Australia,South America, Africa Canada and the US ? In fact everywhere else in the worldI think/hope we'll be okay but there's a little bit of wishful thinking in there. Reality is, if import tariffs are introduced we'll either close or downsize in a couple of years. Shop floor lads will be working even harder (its already incredibly hard work) for no pay rise, I'm indirect and office based so may escape any initial cut back (wishful thinking again)
Ironically most of the local populace voted leave. For me the best that will come out of this is no change.
In fact your components you moist could be cheaper potentially if sourced from elsewhere without the eu imposed tariffs?
sidicks said:
Why would we impose import tariffs?
Potentially there's import tariffs to consider on the tens of thousands of components we import then export tariffs on the finished product.Obviously thats worst case and obviously it may not even happen.
In the meantime all this has done for the business has introduced uncertainty over how much its going to cost to make our product.
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