Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result

Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result

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mclwanB

600 posts

244 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
amgmcqueen said:
As a leaver, if Boris managed to get the reforms that CMD failed to, I could see myself voting to remain in the EU.

As others have said, Cameron should have set the winning post at a 60% majority imo. The result was virtually 50/50.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

880,000 people have had the same idea. Maybe too late to do anything about it but if 18 million signed it- it's gone from 180k to this overnight- it might show something. Don't know if already posted- haven't read full thread

eldar

21,614 posts

195 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
loafer123 said:
Ex-French finance minister on Today this morning called it "United Europe"... One step away from the United States of Europe. Does that make us the local equivalent of Canada?!
Mexico....

JagLover

42,266 posts

234 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
amgmcqueen said:
As a leaver, if Boris managed to get the reforms that CMD failed to, I could see myself voting to remain in the EU.
I have been a firm Brexiter in this debate.

But I could have been persuaded to vote Remain if Cameron had obtained something meaningful. His entire problem was he rushed into renegotiation, got something not worth the paper it was printed on and then thought he could sell it to the British people.

It should have been obvious that there was no appetite in the UK for a federal Europe. We had an opt out on some matters, but using the gun to our head of market access they managed to force us to accept a loss of sovereignty on many matters.

The EU needs to reform to confront the issues of the single currency. Cameron should have waited until that was coming about, whether that be 2017 or 2018 and then negotiated a semi-detached relationship at that point.

It may well have been that they still refused to compromise on free movement, but at least then we would have had a proper negotiation.

Yes to a European free trade area, no to a loss of sovereignty and loss of control of our borders. Probably two thirds of the British people could get behind that.

loafer123

15,404 posts

214 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
eldar said:
loafer123 said:
Ex-French finance minister on Today this morning called it "United Europe"... One step away from the United States of Europe. Does that make us the local equivalent of Canada?!
Mexico....
Seriously? We are a huge G7 developed nation, cradle of democracy, home if international law and society, key player in creativity and the arts.

Why are you talking us down, or did the joke go over my head?

Leithen

10,800 posts

266 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
JagLover said:
amgmcqueen said:
As a leaver, if Boris managed to get the reforms that CMD failed to, I could see myself voting to remain in the EU.
I have been a firm Brexiter in this debate.

But I could have been persuaded to vote Remain if Cameron had obtained something meaningful. His entire problem was he rushed into renegotiation, got something not worth the paper it was printed on and then thought he could sell it to the British people.

It should have been obvious that there was no appetite in the UK for a federal Europe. We had an opt out on some matters, but using the gun to our head of market access they managed to force us to accept a loss of sovereignty on many matters.

The EU needs to reform to confront the issues of the single currency. Cameron should have waited until that was coming about, whether that be 2017 or 2018 and then negotiated a semi-detached relationship at that point.

It may well have been that they still refused to compromise on free movement, but at least then we would have had a proper negotiation.

Yes to a European free trade area, no to a loss of sovereignty and loss of control of our borders. Probably two thirds of the British people could get behind that.
Cameron was never going to achieve anything like that, because the EU would never sanction it out of fear of other members following suit.

The bullish rhetoric from Juncker et all simply follows on from this.

Negotiations will be far more difficult than some imagine, because despite Merkel and others wanting trade to continue, the EU machine will be in lockdown mode fighting any possibility of other states following suit.

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
I think that horse has already bolted. It seems that up until the results started coming in the government and the EUs only plan was to win. Which says a lot.

Now after a fairly horrible temper tantrum in the Guardian and elsewhere, they are facing the reality of it. Trade deals are being mentioned already. Juncker is pushing for a quick divorce.

They can still beat the smaller and poorer countries with the big stick that they are too small survive on their own. The Euro remains in tact. Now is the time to draw up a sensible trade deal and get on with it.

If Britain continues to prosper outside then they may have further problems holding the EU together. But that's life. Especially when you attempt to bully and hoodwink 500 million people into a political union they never wanted.

Lagerlout

1,810 posts

235 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
I voted remain due to the potential impact on business which is the thing that concerned me the most. However after seeing the EU's arrogant and childish reaction to this from their senior officials, I have to say I'm beginning to change my mind. I just hope the fallout isn't too severe and we don't head straight into a recession with the job losses that will inevitably come with it.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
Leithen said:
Cameron was never going to achieve anything like that, because the EU would never sanction it out of fear of other members following suit.

The bullish rhetoric from Juncker et all simply follows on from this.

Negotiations will be far more difficult than some imagine, because despite Merkel and others wanting trade to continue, the EU machine will be in lockdown mode fighting any possibility of other states following suit.

I think you're right. Never mind the members' economies, even less the individual people, all that matters is the institution.

Sad.

Frankthered

1,619 posts

179 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
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AJS- said:
I think that horse has already bolted. It seems that up until the results started coming in the government and the EUs only plan was to win. Which says a lot.
At least that was a plan. The only plan the Leavers had was, "Well, we'll leave!"

This was the main reason I wouldn't have voted Leave. But of course, they were a disparate group and probably wouldn't have been able to come up with a plan to satisfy all the parties.

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
True enough, there is no master plan. The only thing that Leave agree on is that plans should be decided by the public at the ballot box not by EU officials. No need to discuss that further here as it's now a done deal.

I suspect we will now have an early general election where different plans are discussed.

The difficulty being that as with the EU issue for decades they will be in amongst everything else.

One could hope for a grand renewal that leaves both of the current main parties out in the cold, but that will take a lot.

Vyse

1,224 posts

123 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
Canadian take on the matter, seeing as they are also partial to a referendum.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/...

All that jazz

7,632 posts

145 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
Vyse said:
Canadian take on the matter, seeing as they are also partial to a referendum.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/...
The first paragraph told me all I needed to know about the rest of the article. Swiftly closed.

Puggit

48,355 posts

247 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
All that jazz said:
Vyse said:
Canadian take on the matter, seeing as they are also partial to a referendum.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/...
The first paragraph told me all I needed to know about the rest of the article. Swiftly closed.
I'm anti-EU, but that paragraph is accurate. It is what happened.

The article also points out what might well happen. UK negotiates pre-50 with the EU and then goes to the polls again based on the offer.

Vyse

1,224 posts

123 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
Nothing wrong with the first paragraph. Your just burying your head in the sand if you think some votes were not directly related to a racist attitude.

All that jazz said:
The first paragraph told me all I needed to know about the rest of the article. Swiftly closed.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
Puggit said:
I'm anti-EU, but that paragraph is accurate. It is what happened.

The article also points out what might well happen. UK negotiates pre-50 with the EU and then goes to the polls again based on the offer.
That is what I wonder, perhaps under a new leader not involved in the previous referendum.

In which case it avoids an embarrassing Brexit for Europe, avoids Gibraltar uncertainty, N.Ireland uncertainty, and Scottish justification for independance. It also will limit the risk of contagion.

Perhaps the plan all along waiting for October, before invoking article 50, would give time for the negotiations to take place, Cameron to go, and a new PM with credibility to delver a new referendum. This will perhaps be the best outcome.

Will the EU want to just let the UK walk out the door without a further negotiation, I am not sure?

eldar

21,614 posts

195 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
loafer123 said:
Seriously? We are a huge G7 developed nation, cradle of democracy, home if international law and society, key player in creativity and the arts.

Why are you talking us down, or did the joke go over my head?
The latter.

thinkofaname

280 posts

132 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
I think a second vote, be it another referendum or a general election with clear manifesto commitments about what the UK will accept in negotiations, will be necessary, because that question has not been put to the people. There really was no plan.
And I think that by the time of that second vote (could easily be six months or a year away), there may be a significant number of Leavers who have changed their minds, especially if some kind of real concessions have been extracted from a spooked EU. I could see a party winning an election on a platform that includes suspending the process of leaving the EU. A "suspension" that could become permanent.
You could say we're in a good position now. That referendum result in the UK's back pocket is a very credible bargaining chip.

My bet: the UK will not leave the EU.

Edited by thinkofaname on Saturday 25th June 20:07

stevesuk

1,345 posts

181 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
If we do leave, won't the EU have a large hole in it's annual budget, which the other net contributors will have to fill? Wouldn't that be enough reason for them to want to be a little flexible to have us remain? Although I'm coming to the conclusion that the EU isn't particularly fond of us in the UK in any case (with or without Brexit), so perhaps this is an opportunity they've been waiting for.

Edited by stevesuk on Saturday 25th June 20:26

alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
thinkofaname said:
My bet: the UK will not leave the EU.
Edited by thinkofaname on Saturday 25th June 20:07
I would not bet against you either...but I would bet that, even though UKIP wouldn't be part of a govt, they will get more than a few MP's that would play havoc in our parliament.....but then again our parliament would be irrelevant anyway I suppose.


Edited by alfie2244 on Saturday 25th June 20:14

ttdan

1,091 posts

192 months

Saturday 25th June 2016
quotequote all
AJS- said:
True enough, there is no master plan. The only thing that Leave agree on is that plans should be decided by the public at the ballot box not by EU officials. No need to discuss that further here as it's now a done deal.

I suspect we will now have an early general election where different plans are discussed.

The difficulty being that as with the EU issue for decades they will be in amongst everything else.

One could hope for a grand renewal that leaves both of the current main parties out in the cold, but that will take a lot.
I think an early general election is an absolute must. The brexit campaign talked about some idealogy and the country essentially voted with empathy to it. But, there is no plan for what happens next! This is why many people on both sides have a not unreasonable amount of trepidation. We are faced with some unelected leaders being appointed by the tories who will be negotiating our exit from the EU with no mandate from the electorate except for "leave", we need some details! A lot of numbers were bandied about in the last few weeks and now there is zero accountability. If the 350m per week resonated with you and you thought that spending it on the NHS was a better idea then ok but at this point no one is going to make that actually happen...you voted for it but who is accountable? Both sides of the debate have now retreated back into their own burrows and any common ideas they had dont actually exist as policy or manifesto anywhere. There is no accountability for the arguments and ideas presented for Brexit, the country has decided on an idea, not a strategy.

A general election, (and not a just conservative party leader contest) as much as it would delay things and be even more disruptive needs to happen so we can all get behind a new manifesto and start to move forwards.


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