Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result
Discussion
All that jazz said:
There is nothing else for you here. It's a done deal, accept it and move on. All you are achieving by hanging around (same goes for jonnyb, ajd and lynn) is bringing a lot of negativity, hate, arguing and bitterness into what would be positive, friendly discussions. So please, if you can't accept it, go and argue about it with your wife or someone and stop trolling these threads with your crap. Thanks.
This post surely shows a complete misunderstanding of the whole idea of a discussion forum, which is that people disagree with each other whilst supporting their own point of view. They might not be right, indeed neither side in a discussion could be 100% right, but that's the way these things operate.If you want to have discussion between generally similarly-minded people on a contentious (to some) subject, then you probably need a church group, and not a discussion forum.
Mind you, given the almost religious fervour which seems to envelop some posters on both sides of this discussion, it is easy to see how some confusion may arise in the minds of some of them
Stickyfinger said:
///ajd said:
OK, my 911 will blow the doors off your Healey every day of the week!
Better?
(this is only a joke, I don't really think an old 911 is any better or worse than an AH3000)
and I don't think you own a 911.....Better?
(this is only a joke, I don't really think an old 911 is any better or worse than an AH3000)
Edited by ///ajd on Friday 22 July 19:59
///ajd said:
Sway said:
///ajd said:
hidetheelephants said:
jjlynn27 said:
hidetheelephants said:
What part of the EEA's FOM being conditional and subject to unilateral controls do you not understand? Is it that complicated?
It would be simpler if you explain more. If it's North's Licht option it was discussed before. As I understand, 'Norway' option doesn't include controls. Happy to be corrected. EEA agreement said:
If serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectorial or regional nature liable to persist are arising, a Contracting Party may unilaterally take appropriate measures under the conditions and procedures laid down in Article 113.
Not a sinecure as (re)joining the EEA requires the consent of the members and there will be horse trading needed to get that. North does venture the idea that as we are are technically still in the EEA we don't need to join but he doesn't put much store in it. 
Licht option - with a pop of 35k - will hardly apply to the UK. Otherwise Switzerland would be doing it already - and they can't.
Such flawed dreams - dream on!
ks? Really? First of all, why are you mentioning Switzerland in points about EEA? They are not a member.
Secondly, and many on this thread will remember - you refuted my experience living and working in Zurich, including the fact that my residency visa was initially refused. "They've signed up to the four freedoms", you cried repeatedly.
Until it was demonstrated, using Swiss government documentation that they do put significant restrictions on movement and labour for any period over 90 days.
Each time, you go from assertion to assertion, to being shown clear irrefutable evidence, to going quiet for a week or two then spouting the same b
ks. At least four times so far - do we need a fifth in a couple of weeks?
You are deliberately misrepresenting the swiss option and you know it.
I am at a bit of a loss to know why you are doing it.
The ability we had to deport EU nationals who did not have a job after 6 months seemed reasonably similar to what Switzerland has. Why do you crow so much about it being somehow massively different?
Do you want to stop all the fruit pickers coming to the UK to help UK farmers? Don't you care about their livelihood?
Edited by ///ajd on Friday 22 July 19:58
The key differences:
Proof that wages are comparable to indigenous staff. Fruit pickers will do just fine (I've worked for a company with over 700 Eastern European staff out of a total of 750 employees - not fruit but salads and semi exotics such as courgettes, pumpkins and asparagus. They are virtually all on minimum wage, as would a Brit. Brits aren't interested.).
Proof that a 'self employed' status actually provides a livelihood.
Sufficient health care provision to not be burden on the state.
None of those fell foul of the application of Freedom of Movement as applied to an EFTA member.
Sway said:
The rules the Swiss applied a couple of years ago to me, and apply currently, do not fall foul of the EU's rules, and hold significant differences to our current approach. The only reason the Swiss are potentially in trouble is because they voted to apply even stricter rules - hence your point of 'about to fall foul', now who's wilfully misrepresenting...
The key differences:
Proof that wages are comparable to indigenous staff. Fruit pickers will do just fine (I've worked for a company with over 700 Eastern European staff out of a total of 750 employees - not fruit but salads and semi exotics such as courgettes, pumpkins and asparagus. They are virtually all on minimum wage, as would a Brit. Brits aren't interested.).
Proof that a 'self employed' status actually provides a livelihood.
Sufficient health care provision to not be burden on the state.
None of those fell foul of the application of Freedom of Movement as applied to an EFTA member.
But lets look at the differences:The key differences:
Proof that wages are comparable to indigenous staff. Fruit pickers will do just fine (I've worked for a company with over 700 Eastern European staff out of a total of 750 employees - not fruit but salads and semi exotics such as courgettes, pumpkins and asparagus. They are virtually all on minimum wage, as would a Brit. Brits aren't interested.).
Proof that a 'self employed' status actually provides a livelihood.
Sufficient health care provision to not be burden on the state.
None of those fell foul of the application of Freedom of Movement as applied to an EFTA member.
1. Proof that wages are comparable. If an EU fruit picker proves his wages are similar to UK fruit pickers, then same control as switzerland. I can't see that making much difference to immigration.
2. Proof that 'self employed' provides a livelihood. Where does that leave a fruit picker - if they are PAYE by a farmer, isn't that irrelevant? HOw does an EU immigrant prove he has a job in the UK under the 6 month rule - that would cover self employed too I expect. No difference.
3. Sufficient health care. Well if they are a PAYE employee with NI contributions, aren't they contributing the same as UK citizens? No difference. The swiss healthcare system is just different.
I'm not seeing a tangible difference in control over what we had in the UK since 2014. May some minor differences, but nothing earth shatteringly different.
///ajd said:
Stickyfinger said:
Your Crap'O'meter is getting full
please post a single entry on the forum about cars to reset
OK, my 911 will blow the doors off your Healey every day of the week!please post a single entry on the forum about cars to reset
Better?
I did see what you entered..... just pixels, I still say its BS
Edited by Stickyfinger on Friday 22 July 21:35
SidewaysSi said:
Who is getting angry? The nuclear power, 5th largest economy blah blah stuff is as it is today. If, as some people want, we exit the SM etc then quite frankly a lot of that would be in the past. For instance, our economy is hugely driven by the City and London, so clipping its wings would be short sighted. The anti London feeling on some parts of PH is really quite sad but having lived in various parts of the UK throughout my life is probably unsurprising.
I don't think our education system is strong enough but kids having the appetite for European languages and wanting to take advantage of what Europe has to offer is only a good thing. And yes, I did study abroad when I was at university.
Time will tell but I don't really think we will have full Brexit. Which will be interesting to say the least..
Interesting times indeed, bla bla 5th largest economy etc are as you say how things are now, but nobody can predict the future ,the EU are threatening us, do you think that's right ? Interestingly New Zealand has offered negotiators, when times get tough you find out who your friends are, I don't think our education system is strong enough but kids having the appetite for European languages and wanting to take advantage of what Europe has to offer is only a good thing. And yes, I did study abroad when I was at university.
Time will tell but I don't really think we will have full Brexit. Which will be interesting to say the least..
Edited by SidewaysSi on Friday 22 July 09:05
As for London one has to ask why successive governments have failed to balance the economy and put all our eggs in one basket,
as you say there is no love lost for London from people living outside it,but understandable when you understand how the regions have been treated, in the north east the steel works closed,I think the total job losses is around 9000 people, Michael Heseltine arrived and pronounced its a good time to loses your job, well if its good for steel workers it must also be a good time for people in the financial services also would you not agree?
Will students not be allowed to study in the EU when we leave? Or will it just be more difficult as I am sure people from all over the world come to study in the UK.
PRTVR said:
Interesting times indeed, bla bla 5th largest economy etc are as you say how things are now, but nobody can predict the future ,the EU are threatening us, do you think that's right ? Interestingly New Zealand has offered negotiators, when times get tough you find out who your friends are,
As for London one has to ask why successive governments have failed to balance the economy and put all our eggs in one basket,
as you say there is no love lost for London from people living outside it,but understandable when you understand how the regions have been treated, in the north east the steel works closed,I think the total job losses is around 9000 people, Michael Heseltine arrived and pronounced its a good time to loses your job, well if its good for steel workers it must also be a good time for people in the financial services also would you not agree?
Will students not be allowed to study in the EU when we leave? Or will it just be more difficult as I am sure people from all over the world come to study in the UK.
What was the net contribution from the UK Steel industry to the UK's coffers over the last 5 years, say?As for London one has to ask why successive governments have failed to balance the economy and put all our eggs in one basket,
as you say there is no love lost for London from people living outside it,but understandable when you understand how the regions have been treated, in the north east the steel works closed,I think the total job losses is around 9000 people, Michael Heseltine arrived and pronounced its a good time to loses your job, well if its good for steel workers it must also be a good time for people in the financial services also would you not agree?
Will students not be allowed to study in the EU when we leave? Or will it just be more difficult as I am sure people from all over the world come to study in the UK.
PRTVR said:
Interesting times indeed, bla bla 5th largest economy etc are as you say how things are now, but nobody can predict the future ,the EU are threatening us, do you think that's right ? Interestingly New Zealand has offered negotiators, when times get tough you find out who your friends are,
EU are threatening us? With what? As for NZ offering negotiators, would you trust them to get us a good deal with Aus, or NZ for that matter? This whole notion of friendship is ridiculous. It's business. PRTVR said:
As for London one has to ask why successive governments have failed to balance the economy and put all our eggs in one basket,
as you say there is no love lost for London from people living outside it,but understandable when you understand how the regions have been treated, in the north east the steel works closed,I think the total job losses is around 9000 people, Michael Heseltine arrived and pronounced its a good time to loses your job, well if its good for steel workers it must also be a good time for people in the financial services also would you not agree?
No 'love lost' for London because of MH? as you say there is no love lost for London from people living outside it,but understandable when you understand how the regions have been treated, in the north east the steel works closed,I think the total job losses is around 9000 people, Michael Heseltine arrived and pronounced its a good time to loses your job, well if its good for steel workers it must also be a good time for people in the financial services also would you not agree?
You do what you are good at. We are not good at making steel. Look up comparative advantage.
PRTVR said:
Will students not be allowed to study in the EU when we leave? Or will it just be more difficult as I am sure people from all over the world come to study in the UK.
Nobody knows as details are not announced yet. Stickyfinger said:
///ajd said:
Stickyfinger said:
Your Crap'O'meter is getting full
please post a single entry on the forum about cars to reset
OK, my 911 will blow the doors off your Healey every day of the week!please post a single entry on the forum about cars to reset
Better?
I did see what you entered..... just pixels, I still say its BS
Edited by Stickyfinger on Friday 22 July 21:35
I post a picture of my 911 clocks with my finger pointing to the top speed of a car in the post above - and you still don't believe me!
It really says alot about the ability of some brexiters to look past obvious facts and believe anything their minds want them to believe. This is certainly the case with many of the brexit falsehoods. Sure, you carry on and imply I'm pretending to have a 911 - I'm afraid it speaks volumes about YOU, not me!
sidicks said:
PRTVR said:
Interesting times indeed, bla bla 5th largest economy etc are as you say how things are now, but nobody can predict the future ,the EU are threatening us, do you think that's right ? Interestingly New Zealand has offered negotiators, when times get tough you find out who your friends are,
As for London one has to ask why successive governments have failed to balance the economy and put all our eggs in one basket,
as you say there is no love lost for London from people living outside it,but understandable when you understand how the regions have been treated, in the north east the steel works closed,I think the total job losses is around 9000 people, Michael Heseltine arrived and pronounced its a good time to loses your job, well if its good for steel workers it must also be a good time for people in the financial services also would you not agree?
Will students not be allowed to study in the EU when we leave? Or will it just be more difficult as I am sure people from all over the world come to study in the UK.
What was the net contribution from the UK Steel industry to the UK's coffers over the last 5 years, say?As for London one has to ask why successive governments have failed to balance the economy and put all our eggs in one basket,
as you say there is no love lost for London from people living outside it,but understandable when you understand how the regions have been treated, in the north east the steel works closed,I think the total job losses is around 9000 people, Michael Heseltine arrived and pronounced its a good time to loses your job, well if its good for steel workers it must also be a good time for people in the financial services also would you not agree?
Will students not be allowed to study in the EU when we leave? Or will it just be more difficult as I am sure people from all over the world come to study in the UK.
///ajd said:
ha ha!
I post a picture of my 911 clocks with my finger pointing to the top speed of a car in the post above - and you still don't believe me!
It really says alot about the ability of some brexiters to look past obvious facts and believe anything their minds want them to believe. This is certainly the case with many of the brexit falsehoods. Sure, you carry on and imply I'm pretending to have a 911 - I'm afraid it speaks volumes about YOU, not me!
Post it againI post a picture of my 911 clocks with my finger pointing to the top speed of a car in the post above - and you still don't believe me!
It really says alot about the ability of some brexiters to look past obvious facts and believe anything their minds want them to believe. This is certainly the case with many of the brexit falsehoods. Sure, you carry on and imply I'm pretending to have a 911 - I'm afraid it speaks volumes about YOU, not me!
PRTVR said:
I agree but as I pointed out why have we ended up so dependent on a single sector,is that sensible?
So you agree they've not been treated badly at all - there's simply no point throwing good money after bad?As above - comparative advantage - you do what you are bet placed to do, and leave the other stuff to other people.
We still have a fairly large amount of manufacturing, it's just very different than the stuff we used to do.
///ajd said:
PRTVR said:
Jimboka said:
'Brexit means Brexit'
Slight problem, nobody knows what Brexit will be.
Seems to be heading for freedom of movement in exchange for access to the single market.The FOM part is great for the young Brits & those who like the option of moving to EU etc .
But not what most Brexit voters wanted & A lot worse for Remainers than the new deal which Cameron negotiated .
I keep hearing FOM is great for young Brits but how many actually go to universities abroad ? I was talking to a few the other day who were struggling with English let alone a foreign language, it could have just been me as they appeared to understand each other. Slight problem, nobody knows what Brexit will be.
Seems to be heading for freedom of movement in exchange for access to the single market.The FOM part is great for the young Brits & those who like the option of moving to EU etc .
But not what most Brexit voters wanted & A lot worse for Remainers than the new deal which Cameron negotiated .
It is more common now, and the international links of many good unis are impressive.
You should stop putting down the UKs next generation. I'm sure they'll run rings around some of the old farts on here
///ajd said:
hidetheelephants said:
jjlynn27 said:
hidetheelephants said:
What part of the EEA's FOM being conditional and subject to unilateral controls do you not understand? Is it that complicated?
It would be simpler if you explain more. If it's North's Licht option it was discussed before. As I understand, 'Norway' option doesn't include controls. Happy to be corrected. EEA agreement said:
If serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectorial or regional nature liable to persist are arising, a Contracting Party may unilaterally take appropriate measures under the conditions and procedures laid down in Article 113.
Not a sinecure as (re)joining the EEA requires the consent of the members and there will be horse trading needed to get that. North does venture the idea that as we are are technically still in the EEA we don't need to join but he doesn't put much store in it. Licht option - with a pop of 35k - will hardly apply to the UK. Otherwise Switzerland would be doing it already - and they can't.
Such flawed dreams - dream on!
///ajd said:
ha ha!
I post a picture of my 911 clocks with my finger pointing to the top speed of a car in the post above - and you still don't believe me!
It really says alot about the ability of some brexiters to look past obvious facts and believe anything their minds want them to believe. This is certainly the case with many of the brexit falsehoods. Sure, you carry on and imply I'm pretending to have a 911 - I'm afraid it speaks volumes about YOU, not me!
Oh so those who voted leave are in denial, I seeI post a picture of my 911 clocks with my finger pointing to the top speed of a car in the post above - and you still don't believe me!
It really says alot about the ability of some brexiters to look past obvious facts and believe anything their minds want them to believe. This is certainly the case with many of the brexit falsehoods. Sure, you carry on and imply I'm pretending to have a 911 - I'm afraid it speaks volumes about YOU, not me!
hidetheelephants said:
The sanctions allowed by the rules are reciprocal, i.e. restrictions on UK subjects entering the EU for work might be put in place. There is no framework for anything more punitive such as trade sanctions, tariffs etc. Let's not introduce xenophobia to an otherwise sensible debate please.
Look at part 3 of art113.sidicks said:
PRTVR said:
I agree but as I pointed out why have we ended up so dependent on a single sector,is that sensible?
So you agree they've not been treated badly at all - there's simply no point throwing good money after bad?Fastdruid said:
The point with the steel industry isn't so much about about throwing good money after bad it's that the EU (specifically the energy policies) makes production of steel (and aluminium and other energy intensive manufacturing) massively more expensive than it should be, hence uncompetitive and so loses money, especially when combined with a strong pound. Now I'm not sure that we could totally compete with say China even with "normal" energy costs but at least we'd have a fighting chance!
I know that, you know that, but it seems that PRTVR thinks that the government should have provided ongoing subsidies to the industry (why, it is not yet clear...)Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff