Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result
Discussion
I haven't looked at this thread in a quite some time, but wow there's some mental in here!
Something that surprised me after the vote was that anecdotally there seem to be lots more soft remainers than soft leavers. Of the remainers I've spoken to I would say there are maybe 10% that are showing the sort of depressed end of the world attitude that's all over this thread and 90% that aren't upset or disappointed at all. What would be interesting (though impractical for all sorts of reasons) is if the 'vote' was replicated with a score of 1-10, 1 if you love the EU, 10 if you don't and an average score over 5 to leave. My experience suggests that the remain vote would be weakened by a huge number of scores of 4-5 and the leave vote would be strengthened by a dearth in the 6-7 region. The average strength of feeling is far beyond the 52:48 split that a binary vote lead to.
I think public support for a second referendum - have there been any polls along these lines? - would be around 10-15% and a huge number of soft remainers would vote to leave if there was a second referendum purely because they don't support the aims of a second vote.
It's pretty obvious that there isn't any sort of Machiavellian plan going on to ensure we stay in, the public doesn't support it, the u-turn required is beyond anything that a Government could survive and the consequences for our international standing, particularly within the EU, would be spectacular. The cost to the UK would far outweigh any cost to just carrying on with what is the plan and leaving the EU.
Perhaps consider that it is possible that we could achieve a sensible deal with the EU, because pragmatism wins out among national governments. Is pragmatism enough? The UK has plenty to offer when it comes to cooperation; our security services and intelligence is way beyond anything the EU has access to, our Universities are ahead, for both results and research, and our military capacity is essential to EU foreign policy ambition. Etc etc etc.
It's certainly more likely than the nonsense theories being clung to here. All the while under-cutting on tax rates and freeing up international trade to ensure we're not negotiating from a position of weakness.
Something that surprised me after the vote was that anecdotally there seem to be lots more soft remainers than soft leavers. Of the remainers I've spoken to I would say there are maybe 10% that are showing the sort of depressed end of the world attitude that's all over this thread and 90% that aren't upset or disappointed at all. What would be interesting (though impractical for all sorts of reasons) is if the 'vote' was replicated with a score of 1-10, 1 if you love the EU, 10 if you don't and an average score over 5 to leave. My experience suggests that the remain vote would be weakened by a huge number of scores of 4-5 and the leave vote would be strengthened by a dearth in the 6-7 region. The average strength of feeling is far beyond the 52:48 split that a binary vote lead to.
I think public support for a second referendum - have there been any polls along these lines? - would be around 10-15% and a huge number of soft remainers would vote to leave if there was a second referendum purely because they don't support the aims of a second vote.
It's pretty obvious that there isn't any sort of Machiavellian plan going on to ensure we stay in, the public doesn't support it, the u-turn required is beyond anything that a Government could survive and the consequences for our international standing, particularly within the EU, would be spectacular. The cost to the UK would far outweigh any cost to just carrying on with what is the plan and leaving the EU.
Perhaps consider that it is possible that we could achieve a sensible deal with the EU, because pragmatism wins out among national governments. Is pragmatism enough? The UK has plenty to offer when it comes to cooperation; our security services and intelligence is way beyond anything the EU has access to, our Universities are ahead, for both results and research, and our military capacity is essential to EU foreign policy ambition. Etc etc etc.
It's certainly more likely than the nonsense theories being clung to here. All the while under-cutting on tax rates and freeing up international trade to ensure we're not negotiating from a position of weakness.
FiF said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Jimboka said:
SilverSixer said:
Hmm. Maybe I have got it wrong. I bow to the boffins at LSE. It had been my impression that Remain had consistently led right up to the last.
Either way, I smell a U-turn in the middle distance when the Referendum is far enough in the past - and there will be tears. Many Leave voters will have done so on the basis of things promised or even imagined which will never materialise, such as and end to freedom of movement. No, I can't provide evidence for that and no, I can't provide you with 10 Leave voters to support that statement because I don't know 10 Leave voters (happily for me my circle of friends and family are 99% remainers). But it is abundantly clear from TV voxpops and the like that people did indeed vote Leave to stop immigration rather than to enhance UK democracy or whatever other intangible benefit you may think people were voting for. And I reckon that when the next vote comes, be it GE2020 or Referendum 2, we will still be in the EU and it will be very clear that an exit from the EU will be on the basis of a negotiation which will not deliver both single market access and an end to free movement, and we will then vote to remain in the EU accordingly.
Here here. By quitting, Cameron bought enough time for the Brexit liars to be exposed to those daft enough to believe them at the time. The government will govern & avoid national suicide thankfully.Either way, I smell a U-turn in the middle distance when the Referendum is far enough in the past - and there will be tears. Many Leave voters will have done so on the basis of things promised or even imagined which will never materialise, such as and end to freedom of movement. No, I can't provide evidence for that and no, I can't provide you with 10 Leave voters to support that statement because I don't know 10 Leave voters (happily for me my circle of friends and family are 99% remainers). But it is abundantly clear from TV voxpops and the like that people did indeed vote Leave to stop immigration rather than to enhance UK democracy or whatever other intangible benefit you may think people were voting for. And I reckon that when the next vote comes, be it GE2020 or Referendum 2, we will still be in the EU and it will be very clear that an exit from the EU will be on the basis of a negotiation which will not deliver both single market access and an end to free movement, and we will then vote to remain in the EU accordingly.
Pan Pan Pan said:
I initially started off wanting the UK to remain in a reformed EU. After doing some research into the UK`s relationship with the EEC/EU, and the EU announcing it had no intention of reforming itself, it made making my up mind to vote leave asap, quite a bit easier.
I think that possibly reflects the view of a number of people who eventually voted Brexit. There were some, I am sure, who voted out for reasons of immigration, but hardly any I think that voted out believing there would be NO immigration post Brexit. There were some who could not accept the democratic deficit that the EU creates, and some still who never wanted in in the first place and had waited 40 years for a chance to vote. I am sure that there are any number of reasons and combinations of reasons and nuances behind people's voting habits on that day. Yet, you get people like ///ajd banging on about the 350million for the NHS as if this was what swayed the decision to leave. He asserts this strongly...he claims it is logic, but from the 17, 410, 742 people who voted exit, ///ajd has yet to find 10 people who can state unequivocally that they believed that 350million per week would go to the NHS if they voted exit. Note, its not even a question of whether that was the only reason they voted exit, just whether they believed the 350million thing.
The trouble is, I suppose, if you are a Remainer, you have to believe that people have made a mistake, and that if you can just keep pointing it out, or convince them that they have been lied to in such a way that it influenced their vote, then your own view will eventually win the day.
Chalk dust! everyone could see that there was chalk dust! .
paulrockliffe said:
It's pretty obvious that there isn't any sort of Machiavellian plan going on to ensure we stay in, the public doesn't support it, the u-turn required is beyond anything that a Government could survive and the consequences for our international standing, particularly within the EU, would be spectacular. The cost to the UK would far outweigh any cost to just carrying on with what is the plan and leaving the EU.
Well, there might be a plan in some people's minds, but your following logic illustrates just how damaging it would be. For the last month we've had nothing but "Brexit" on the international scene; we've set up a government department to handle it, the EU have appointed their champion negotiator and we're apparently getting overtures and responding to potential deals with countries outside the EU. Add in that our PM is on tour supposedly talking about what the future might hold with individual EU governments and the idea of a complete U-turn will make the UK look complete numpties. After such a U-Turn we'd hammer our non-EU trade (which is the greater portion) and as for reforming the EU after that, well, watch out for airborne pigs.
If we're not out by 2020, we'll have either another coalition government (with UKIP ?) or even better, Jeremy Corbyn in charge. Be careful what you wish for....
andymadmak said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I initially started off wanting the UK to remain in a reformed EU. After doing some research into the UK`s relationship with the EEC/EU, and the EU announcing it had no intention of reforming itself, it made making my up mind to vote leave asap, quite a bit easier.
I think that possibly reflects the view of a number of people who eventually voted Brexit. There were some, I am sure, who voted out for reasons of immigration, but hardly any I think that voted out believing there would be NO immigration post Brexit. There were some who could not accept the democratic deficit that the EU creates, and some still who never wanted in in the first place and had waited 40 years for a chance to vote. I am sure that there are any number of reasons and combinations of reasons and nuances behind people's voting habits on that day. Yet, you get people like ///ajd banging on about the 350million for the NHS as if this was what swayed the decision to leave. He asserts this strongly...he claims it is logic, but from the 17, 410, 742 people who voted exit, ///ajd has yet to find 10 people who can state unequivocally that they believed that 350million per week would go to the NHS if they voted exit. Note, its not even a question of whether that was the only reason they voted exit, just whether they believed the 350million thing.
The trouble is, I suppose, if you are a Remainer, you have to believe that people have made a mistake, and that if you can just keep pointing it out, or convince them that they have been lied to in such a way that it influenced their vote, then your own view will eventually win the day.
Chalk dust! everyone could see that there was chalk dust! .
andymadmak said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I initially started off wanting the UK to remain in a reformed EU. After doing some research into the UK`s relationship with the EEC/EU, and the EU announcing it had no intention of reforming itself, it made making my up mind to vote leave asap, quite a bit easier.
I think that possibly reflects the view of a number of people who eventually voted Brexit. There were some, I am sure, who voted out for reasons of immigration, but hardly any I think that voted out believing there would be NO immigration post Brexit. There were some who could not accept the democratic deficit that the EU creates, and some still who never wanted in in the first place and had waited 40 years for a chance to vote. I am sure that there are any number of reasons and combinations of reasons and nuances behind people's voting habits on that day. Yet, you get people like ///ajd banging on about the 350million for the NHS as if this was what swayed the decision to leave. He asserts this strongly...he claims it is logic, but from the 17, 410, 742 people who voted exit, ///ajd has yet to find 10 people who can state unequivocally that they believed that 350million per week would go to the NHS if they voted exit. Note, its not even a question of whether that was the only reason they voted exit, just whether they believed the 350million thing.
The trouble is, I suppose, if you are a Remainer, you have to believe that people have made a mistake, and that if you can just keep pointing it out, or convince them that they have been lied to in such a way that it influenced their vote, then your own view will eventually win the day.
Chalk dust! everyone could see that there was chalk dust! .
SilverSixer said:
andymadmak said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I initially started off wanting the UK to remain in a reformed EU. After doing some research into the UK`s relationship with the EEC/EU, and the EU announcing it had no intention of reforming itself, it made making my up mind to vote leave asap, quite a bit easier.
I think that possibly reflects the view of a number of people who eventually voted Brexit. There were some, I am sure, who voted out for reasons of immigration, but hardly any I think that voted out believing there would be NO immigration post Brexit. There were some who could not accept the democratic deficit that the EU creates, and some still who never wanted in in the first place and had waited 40 years for a chance to vote. I am sure that there are any number of reasons and combinations of reasons and nuances behind people's voting habits on that day. Yet, you get people like ///ajd banging on about the 350million for the NHS as if this was what swayed the decision to leave. He asserts this strongly...he claims it is logic, but from the 17, 410, 742 people who voted exit, ///ajd has yet to find 10 people who can state unequivocally that they believed that 350million per week would go to the NHS if they voted exit. Note, its not even a question of whether that was the only reason they voted exit, just whether they believed the 350million thing.
The trouble is, I suppose, if you are a Remainer, you have to believe that people have made a mistake, and that if you can just keep pointing it out, or convince them that they have been lied to in such a way that it influenced their vote, then your own view will eventually win the day.
Chalk dust! everyone could see that there was chalk dust! .
SilverSixer said:
So it's OK to tell lies, so long as they are so grotesque that nobody would ever believe them, and then it's OK to trust those liars enough to vote for those liars on the basis of other things they promise which you believe not to be lies. I see. I've been doing democracy wrong all these years. All you have to do is identify which of the things that are proposed in a campaign are lies and discount them. Sounds easy. And those liars never need be held accountable for those lies as everyone knew they were lies all along. Where do I sign up for political office? I'd quite like to be an MEP I think. Oh. *Digs out Maltese passport*
every single vote you have ever cast in your life has been for a liar. to believe otherwise is naive in the extreme.Pan Pan Pan said:
andymadmak said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I initially started off wanting the UK to remain in a reformed EU. After doing some research into the UK`s relationship with the EEC/EU, and the EU announcing it had no intention of reforming itself, it made making my up mind to vote leave asap, quite a bit easier.
I think that possibly reflects the view of a number of people who eventually voted Brexit. There were some, I am sure, who voted out for reasons of immigration, but hardly any I think that voted out believing there would be NO immigration post Brexit. There were some who could not accept the democratic deficit that the EU creates, and some still who never wanted in in the first place and had waited 40 years for a chance to vote. I am sure that there are any number of reasons and combinations of reasons and nuances behind people's voting habits on that day. Yet, you get people like ///ajd banging on about the 350million for the NHS as if this was what swayed the decision to leave. He asserts this strongly...he claims it is logic, but from the 17, 410, 742 people who voted exit, ///ajd has yet to find 10 people who can state unequivocally that they believed that 350million per week would go to the NHS if they voted exit. Note, its not even a question of whether that was the only reason they voted exit, just whether they believed the 350million thing.
The trouble is, I suppose, if you are a Remainer, you have to believe that people have made a mistake, and that if you can just keep pointing it out, or convince them that they have been lied to in such a way that it influenced their vote, then your own view will eventually win the day.
Chalk dust! everyone could see that there was chalk dust! .
Ignore all the debating as most knew it was BS, decisions were made by doing research.
I am dumbfounded at how anyone could have voted remain unless they had serious concerns over their personal position or to be quite blunt are just a bit ignorant. The fact most of the remain MPs were leavers before the campaign started surely had to ring a few alarm bells?
Juncker saying 'There is no reform from within' swung it for many too, those sitting on the fence certainly knew which side to jump off at that point.
These remainers like ///ajd are simply hilarious, but luckily, like said above, very few and far between. Most of the remainers I knew of are pretty ambivalent about the whole thing now and are starting to think 'it might actually be a good thing long term'.
There seems to be a couple of people left that are still crying into their Olive bread and skinny lattes every morning, young Londoners who are a bit thick (lots of my daughters friends it seems, who are all Uni educated) and never really had any experience of real life yet.
The other group seem to be those who work in banking or commercial property.
All those I know in manufacturing, who export a lot and buy a lot in, don't actually seem to that bothered by it, most are saying there was a feeling that business was going to slow slightly anyway, but nothing has really changed so far andeven if the worst case scenario they can eat the import duty between them if it is imposed.
A U-Turn? Not a hope in hell, I reckon a second vote would put leave at 65% of more.
wc98 said:
SilverSixer said:
So it's OK to tell lies, so long as they are so grotesque that nobody would ever believe them, and then it's OK to trust those liars enough to vote for those liars on the basis of other things they promise which you believe not to be lies. I see. I've been doing democracy wrong all these years. All you have to do is identify which of the things that are proposed in a campaign are lies and discount them. Sounds easy. And those liars never need be held accountable for those lies as everyone knew they were lies all along. Where do I sign up for political office? I'd quite like to be an MEP I think. Oh. *Digs out Maltese passport*
every single vote you have ever cast in your life has been for a liar. to believe otherwise is naive in the extreme.My lie good, your lies bad.
gizlaroc said:
Exactly the same for me and everyone I spoke to, and I spoke to a lot of people about it, all we spoke about in the run up to the vote and the weeks since.
Ignore all the debating as most knew it was BS, decisions were made by doing research.
I am dumbfounded at how anyone could have voted remain unless they had serious concerns over their personal position or to be quite blunt are just a bit ignorant. The fact most of the remain MPs were leavers before the campaign started surely had to ring a few alarm bells?
Juncker saying 'There is no reform from within' swung it for many too, those sitting on the fence certainly knew which side to jump off at that point.
These remainers like ///ajd are simply hilarious, but luckily, like said above, very few and far between. Most of the remainers I knew of are pretty ambivalent about the whole thing now and are starting to think 'it might actually be a good thing long term'.
There seems to be a couple of people left that are still crying into their Olive bread and skinny lattes every morning, young Londoners who are a bit thick (lots of my daughters friends it seems, who are all Uni educated) and never really had any experience of real life yet.
The other group seem to be those who work in banking or commercial property.
All those I know in manufacturing, who export a lot and buy a lot in, don't actually seem to that bothered by it, most are saying there was a feeling that business was going to slow slightly anyway, but nothing has really changed so far andeven if the worst case scenario they can eat the import duty between them if it is imposed.
A U-Turn? Not a hope in hell, I reckon a second vote would put leave at 65% of more.
How many people did you speak to ?Ignore all the debating as most knew it was BS, decisions were made by doing research.
I am dumbfounded at how anyone could have voted remain unless they had serious concerns over their personal position or to be quite blunt are just a bit ignorant. The fact most of the remain MPs were leavers before the campaign started surely had to ring a few alarm bells?
Juncker saying 'There is no reform from within' swung it for many too, those sitting on the fence certainly knew which side to jump off at that point.
These remainers like ///ajd are simply hilarious, but luckily, like said above, very few and far between. Most of the remainers I knew of are pretty ambivalent about the whole thing now and are starting to think 'it might actually be a good thing long term'.
There seems to be a couple of people left that are still crying into their Olive bread and skinny lattes every morning, young Londoners who are a bit thick (lots of my daughters friends it seems, who are all Uni educated) and never really had any experience of real life yet.
The other group seem to be those who work in banking or commercial property.
All those I know in manufacturing, who export a lot and buy a lot in, don't actually seem to that bothered by it, most are saying there was a feeling that business was going to slow slightly anyway, but nothing has really changed so far andeven if the worst case scenario they can eat the import duty between them if it is imposed.
A U-Turn? Not a hope in hell, I reckon a second vote would put leave at 65% of more.
gizlaroc said:
There seems to be a couple of people left that are still crying into their Olive bread and skinny lattes every morning, young Londoners who are a bit thick (lots of my daughters friends it seems, who are all Uni educated) and never really had any experience of real life yet.
Well my olive bread (should I swap it for a fried slice now?) is still soaking up the tears and my skinny latte (will I have to swap it for PG Tips with 8 sugars now?) is still being diluted by the same, and I'm a 46 year old non-Londoner with a proper job, a family, and far more experience of the sharp bits of real life than I'd care for to be frank.Sorry to burst your prejudice.
Edited by SilverSixer on Friday 29th July 11:13
SilverSixer said:
Well my olive bread (should I swap it for a fired slice now?) is still soaking up the tears and my skinny latte (will I have to swap it for PG Tips with 8 sugars now?) is still being diluted by the same, and I'm a 46 year old non-Londoner with a proper job, a family, and far more experience of the sharp bits of real life than I'd care for to be frank.
Sorry to burst your prejudice.
As I said, people like you and ///ajd seem to be either getting less vocal or coming round to the idea of the result. Even the facebook posts of doom seem to be dwindling. Sorry to burst your prejudice.
I will just say, it is affecting me too on my footwear coming in from Italy, Spain and Portugal.
Well I say it is affecting me, my cost prices have gone up and the price I sell it onto other retailers has gone up, but so far I am slightly up on last year on sales, and that is off the back end of what many retailers are calling the worst summer they can remember.
SilverSixer said:
wc98 said:
SilverSixer said:
So it's OK to tell lies, so long as they are so grotesque that nobody would ever believe them, and then it's OK to trust those liars enough to vote for those liars on the basis of other things they promise which you believe not to be lies. I see. I've been doing democracy wrong all these years. All you have to do is identify which of the things that are proposed in a campaign are lies and discount them. Sounds easy. And those liars never need be held accountable for those lies as everyone knew they were lies all along. Where do I sign up for political office? I'd quite like to be an MEP I think. Oh. *Digs out Maltese passport*
every single vote you have ever cast in your life has been for a liar. to believe otherwise is naive in the extreme.My lie good, your lies bad.
SilverSixer said:
Yes, I know, but what we have now seemingly is people defending the fact because the lie was big enough not to have made any difference, apparently, so it's OK to ignore. I wouldn't mind betting those are the same people who would like Tony Blair strung up for his whopper. Boris Johnson carries on in important public office, no calls for his head.
My lie good, your lies bad.
All lies are equal, but some lies are more equal than others.My lie good, your lies bad.
Gizlaroc, my feelings that this is a huge mistake have not abated in the slightest, but it will take a while for both the negotiations and impact on our economy to be fully realised and be subject of further debate.
I don't think for a minute that brexit is done and dusted - the outcome of negotiations will be key. If we get a land of milk and honey I'll happily eat my hat and say lets get on with it. If (as I believe) it turns into a woeful fudge keeping neither side happy, and the prospect of the UK being worse off on nearly all aspects - then things could get interesting. In this scenario I suspect a 65% confirmation of leave is unlikely, and furthermore the electoral suicide will not be in backtracking on brexit, but it trying to inflict it on the country despite the key failure to deliver in the main brexit arguments (£350m/alot of free cash, tighter control of immigration than in the EU already, wonderful new trade deals and no harm to our EU SM access cos BMW etc.)
SilverSixer said:
wc98 said:
SilverSixer said:
So it's OK to tell lies, so long as they are so grotesque that nobody would ever believe them, and then it's OK to trust those liars enough to vote for those liars on the basis of other things they promise which you believe not to be lies. I see. I've been doing democracy wrong all these years. All you have to do is identify which of the things that are proposed in a campaign are lies and discount them. Sounds easy. And those liars never need be held accountable for those lies as everyone knew they were lies all along. Where do I sign up for political office? I'd quite like to be an MEP I think. Oh. *Digs out Maltese passport*
every single vote you have ever cast in your life has been for a liar. to believe otherwise is naive in the extreme.My lie good, your lies bad.
andymadmak said:
SilverSixer said:
wc98 said:
SilverSixer said:
So it's OK to tell lies, so long as they are so grotesque that nobody would ever believe them, and then it's OK to trust those liars enough to vote for those liars on the basis of other things they promise which you believe not to be lies. I see. I've been doing democracy wrong all these years. All you have to do is identify which of the things that are proposed in a campaign are lies and discount them. Sounds easy. And those liars never need be held accountable for those lies as everyone knew they were lies all along. Where do I sign up for political office? I'd quite like to be an MEP I think. Oh. *Digs out Maltese passport*
every single vote you have ever cast in your life has been for a liar. to believe otherwise is naive in the extreme.My lie good, your lies bad.
For the Remain side not to have spun like a spinning top, we need to see (in no particular order):
-the collapse of western political civilisation
-the sky falling in
-a year-long recession
-three million unemployed
-more expensive mortgages
-a revenge budget
turbobloke said:
Quite.
For the Remain side not to have spun like a spinning top, we need to see (in no particular order):
-the collapse of western political civilisation
-the sky falling in
-a year-long recession
-three million unemployed
-more expensive mortgages
-a revenge budget
Still disappointed they never used the "plague of locusts" option..... They really did use everything else and that's what made it a joke!!!For the Remain side not to have spun like a spinning top, we need to see (in no particular order):
-the collapse of western political civilisation
-the sky falling in
-a year-long recession
-three million unemployed
-more expensive mortgages
-a revenge budget
turbobloke said:
Quite.
For the Remain side not to have spun like a spinning top, we need to see (in no particular order):
-the collapse of western political civilisation
-the sky falling in
-a year-long recession
-three million unemployed
-more expensive mortgages
-a revenge budget
-the collapse of western political civilisation - hyperbolic exaggeration on your part there, but we await with great nervousness the forthcoming elections in countries such as France and the Netherlands. Austria narrowly avoided a Fascist government shortly before the EU Referendum here. Extreme right-wing governments are somewhat likelier to rise across the continent, the Leave vote here is symptomatic of this but will also give confidence to other such forces in Europe and could turn out to be a contributing factor in a change to 'western political civilisation' which would not be a good one. Less related (but they are watching us), Trump is quite likely to win America also, a similar situation to the Leave vote here where those who are 'angry' about 'something' have been corralled in to a single movement against a perceived common enemy, i.e. a 'controlling establishment' or some such, based on 'you're angry with these guys, let's throw them out', but without a cohesive, planned, costed way of doing it - as we are seeing with us now having to negotiate our 'brexit' from scratch, with no guarantees it can work in our favour. Rabble rousers like UKIP and Leave are gaining popularity across the west, and if they take hold in large enough numbers then yes, we're pretty much done for and will regress in almost every aspect of life and civilisation.For the Remain side not to have spun like a spinning top, we need to see (in no particular order):
-the collapse of western political civilisation
-the sky falling in
-a year-long recession
-three million unemployed
-more expensive mortgages
-a revenge budget
-the sky falling in - not worth commenting on.
-a year-long recession - on its way
-three million unemployed - on its way
-more expensive mortgages - unlikely in the short term, granted. Phew, dodged that bullet for now.
-a revenge budget - revenge is your word, let's see what the next budget throws up.
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