Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result

[Crafty_]

vonuber said:

Yup.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36637037

Reading those quoted from Boris I can't help but think some of the staunch leavers / UKIP types will feel somewhat betrayed. I'm not sure that's what they voted for.

[p1stonhead]

Boris;

"There will still be intense and intensifying European co-operation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment.

"EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

"British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI - the BDI - has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

Yeah so basically nothing much is going to happen - and whatever change there is will take a while. Even free movement of labour stays, which was one of the main leave campaign points.

[Joey Ramone]

The other problem standing in the way of any rapid and decisive resolution to this situation is the paucity, indeed almost a complete absence, of the sort of properly qualified individuals who can be reliably tasked with managing negotiations for Britain's withdrawal on terms that satisfy the national intrest to the greatest extent. That means expert bureaucrats utterly immersed in the vagaries of the european machine. They do not grow on trees, and according to a former FCO official we have about 12 of the 200 or so that we need.

Then there's the matter of a civil service that is woefully unprepared for drawing up the sort of legislation that was previously handled by the EU - that relating agriculture, fisheries and so on and so forth. You would have to preside over a significant inflation of the public sector to allow this to function smoothly and effectively.

As others have said above, I think that what will eventually come to pass will be something akin to what we have now, with largely cosmetic adjustments for everyone's sake.

I voted remain, albeit with quite a heavy heart as I regard some of the EU's philosophies, aspirations and practices to be mendacious, wasteful and unrepresentative of the people it purports to serve. For me, however I did see genuine benefits in being part of the club.

I'll be honest though - for me, immigration WAS an issue. Still is. But it's not about colour or ethnicity, or even religion. I'll live next door to absolutely anyone, irrespective of their colour or creed, if they're nice people that I can get on with. Ever been to a Polish wedding? fk me, you'll never want to go to a poxy British version again. No, It's about values. If you want in to the UK, then you adopt what most right minded people here consider to be a value system that is worth defending - openness, tolerance, acceptance of others regardless of their gender and sexuality, and hard work but also, crucially, an adherence to the principles of representation and democratic Govt that have served us so well over the centuries. What you don't fking do is turn up, demand your own system of representation, start targeting those around you who don't buy into your medieval, antediluvian and thoroughly mysogynist world view, and then threaten to plant nailbombs in public places if your demands aren't met.

Yes, the forces of ill-educated, conservative Islam, I'm taking about you. Everyone else is pretty much welcome as far as I'm concerned as long as they buy into our way of getting on with each other. But you lot? Simply, no.

[tarnished]

p1stonhead said:

Boris;

"There will still be intense and intensifying European co-operation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment.

"EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

"British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI - the BDI - has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

Yeah so basically nothing much is going to happen - and whatever change there is will take a while. Even free movement of labour stays, which was one of the main leave campaign points.

i.e. We're leaving the EU, not leaving Europe.

[p1stonhead]

tarnished said:

p1stonhead said:

Boris;

"There will still be intense and intensifying European co-operation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment.

"EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

"British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI - the BDI - has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

Yeah so basically nothing much is going to happen - and whatever change there is will take a while. Even free movement of labour stays, which was one of the main leave campaign points.

i.e. We're leaving the EU, not leaving Europe.

Except most of his items mentioned are EU rules and regulations and not European ones - Free Movement, Cooperation on services, Being able to live anywhere (and vice versa) etc.

All he wants removed are EU directives and rules, of which there are many very beneficial ones;

Equal opportunities
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

Working time
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

Use of personal data
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

Consumer rights
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

[covmutley]

so it looks like we will push for a Norway type deal, maintaining free market access and movement of people. But I suspect we will get ok deal given we are one of the key net contributors. Merkel will not want to ask her electorate to make up our shortfall.

Can this even have been carefully orchestrated so that we dont actually leave? Cameron uses his last few months to agree deals and new leader comes in who will refuse to trigger article 50 on basis that the situation is now different with new deals on the table? I think whatever is happening, the politicians are probably cleverer that we think they are right now and there will be a plan, its just not being shared with us yet. Only taken a couple of days for Boris et al to soften.

[loafer123]

It sounds like Merkel is moving towards creating a new associate membership which is a formalised group of non-integrating EU countries as a compromise.

[marshalla]

loafer123 said:

It sounds like Merkel is moving towards creating a new associate membership which is a formalised group of non-integrating EU countries as a compromise.

So that would be UK, Turkey and a few others?

[sidicks]

p1stonhead said:

Except most of his items mentioned are EU rules and regulations and not European ones - Free Movement, Cooperation on services, Being able to live anywhere (and vice versa) etc.

All he wants removed are EU directives and rules, of which there are many very beneficial ones;

Equal opportunities
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

Working time
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

Use of personal data
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

Consumer rights
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

1) it's arguable whether they are all beneficial
2) we can choose to implement those we believe are beneficial

[loafer123]

marshalla said:

loafer123 said:

It sounds like Merkel is moving towards creating a new associate membership which is a formalised group of non-integrating EU countries as a compromise.

So that would be UK, Turkey and a few others?

UK, Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, maybe an exit route from the Euro for Greece.

[p1stonhead]

sidicks said:

p1stonhead said:

Except most of his items mentioned are EU rules and regulations and not European ones - Free Movement, Cooperation on services, Being able to live anywhere (and vice versa) etc.

All he wants removed are EU directives and rules, of which there are many very beneficial ones;

Equal opportunities
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

Working time
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

Use of personal data
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

Consumer rights
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid...

1) it's arguable whether they are all beneficial
2) we can choose to implement those we believe are beneficial

Win win then

[All that jazz]

loafer123 said:

It sounds like Merkel is moving towards creating a new associate membership which is a formalised group of non-integrating EU countries as a compromise.

WTF has it got to do with that power crazy old bag? Our future is nothing to do with her or Germany. She needs to be told to keep her fat beak out.

[RizzoTheRat]

All that jazz said:

loafer123 said:

It sounds like Merkel is moving towards creating a new associate membership which is a formalised group of non-integrating EU countries as a compromise.

WTF has it got to do with that power crazy old bag? Our future is nothing to do with her or Germany. She needs to be told to keep her fat beak out.

As the strongest economy in the EU, and the most seats on the EU parliament, I'd have thought the future of the EU has got quite a bit to do with her.

[Blue62]

loafer123 said:

UK, Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, maybe an exit route from the Euro for Greece.

That would be an interesting outcome, but I can't see how that would square with those people who voted expressly on the immigration ticket and despite what Leave is saying, there were plenty of those in the Labour heartlands and elsewhere. If nothing else, the referendum has highlighted just how divided the UK is and its difficult to see how those wounds are healed, especially if free movement is part of the eventual deal.

[RizzoTheRat]

p1stonhead said:

Boris;
Yeah so basically nothing much is going to happen - and whatever change there is will take a while. Even free movement of labour stays, which was one of the main leave campaign points.

Plus if we go with the Norwegian model they pay about as much per head to the EU as we do, so we could end up keeping the free movement/immigration and paying a similar amount of cash to EU as we do now. I can see a fair few Leave voters being pretty unhappy about that.

[Blue62]

The statement from Boris sounds more Remain than Leave, I think he's bottled it.

[Graemsay]

The trouble with the Norwegian model is that it's a worse situation than the UK is currently in. There will still be freedom of travel, and a similar annual cost, but no say in how things are run.

[fatjon]

All that jazz said:

loafer123 said:

It sounds like Merkel is moving towards creating a new associate membership which is a formalised group of non-integrating EU countries as a compromise.

WTF has it got to do with that power crazy old bag? Our future is nothing to do with her or Germany. She needs to be told to keep her fat beak out.

^this

And our government, the opposition and the EU best remember before they ignore or try to rerun this referendum that they can ps off a load of lentil eaters who will have a sit in and sing "we shall overcome" or they can ps off 17 million people who will be less subtle.

I am really not interested in EU2 or the status quo with a couple of Cameronesque tweaks. I voted for out and out is what I expected to get. I understood the words "Leave" and "Remain". I'm not interested in "the single market" as a club we must be in or out of with subscriptions paid to a load of snouts in troughs, mainly snouts rejected by their own countrymen at that.

If they wish to restrict our trade we will return the favour and also encourage their own sceptics to revolt. I doubt they will need much encouragement, always assuming our press and media can pull their collective heads out of their arses and support our democracy and our country.

I am also getting thoroughly pissed off with being called an old fart, a racist and uneducated. I'm 49 and have a good degree and own a company doing business all over Europe and world. I am quite happy for anyone to come and WORK in the UK if we need them. By "need them" I mean a skilled job earning a salary which makes them a net contributor and which we cannot fill with local labour. What I'm not happy with is jumping through hoops to hire good workers from the rest of the world while welcoming any EU resident unemployables or non tax paying minimum wage earners with open arms and a council house. Racism is applying preferential access to our country and jobs market to predominantly white Europeans while telling the rest of the world to ps off or spend months and a lot of money proving they are of use to the UK. We cannot afford to be the dole office for all of Europe so to not be racists we need the same controls on all applicants to live and work here. If the Scottish want independence this can also apply to them. Let them try to survive on oil at $50/barrel. Maybe they will join the EU, then France and Germany can also pay out to support another basket case economy? I suspect they might get time honoured reply though. We need politicians to to have the balls to tell Sturgeon and the rest of her clique of haters that this is the way it is, those are your options now choose.

/rant

Edited by fatjon on Monday 27th June 10:41

[Blue62]

I don't think there's any chance of a re-run Fatjon, though what you may see is a General Election before Article 50 is invoked with at least one party standing on a remain ticket. It's not worth going back through the arguments, you had your reasons for voting Leave, the issue here is what happens next and the picture is understandably cloudy right now, but an outright withdrawl from the single market is not going to happen, your leader has made that much clear this morning.

[All that jazz]

RizzoTheRat said:

All that jazz said:

loafer123 said:

It sounds like Merkel is moving towards creating a new associate membership which is a formalised group of non-integrating EU countries as a compromise.

WTF has it got to do with that power crazy old bag? Our future is nothing to do with her or Germany. She needs to be told to keep her fat beak out.

As the strongest economy in the EU, and the most seats on the EU parliament, I'd have thought the future of the EU has got quite a bit to do with her.

You seem to be ignoring the not-so-small detail that the majority of the UK voting population doesn't want anything to do with the EU and wants out ASAP. So my point stands.