Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result
Discussion
Ghibli said:
don'tbesilly said:
Can you explain how a vote to remain would have given the UK some bargaining power?
What changes could possibly have been made had we voted to remain?
Why the need for any changes?
A vote to remain in the referendum by the people who voted would have been an acceptance of everything good/bad about membership of the EU.
Why would the EU be prepared to consider/sanction any changes?
The country would have accepted the status quo by voting to remain.
If the vote had been 52-48 remain various issues would still be discussed. I doubt it would be a case of get stuffed you bad lossers.The government would still have a voice in the EU. A second referendum could still be on the cards if the EU didn't listen and perhaps a bigger leave vote.What changes could possibly have been made had we voted to remain?
Why the need for any changes?
A vote to remain in the referendum by the people who voted would have been an acceptance of everything good/bad about membership of the EU.
Why would the EU be prepared to consider/sanction any changes?
The country would have accepted the status quo by voting to remain.
As it is we get no say and no one knows what they are getting.
What issues specifically?
As you voted to remain, what issues have you got with being an EU member?
The UK has been in the EU for years,and had a voice.
Cameron came back with his reforms just before calling the referendum, and within days the EU were stating that they were not legally binding, despite Cameron's pledge to the people.
Why would there have been a second referendum once we voted to remain?
Cameron stated it was a once in a lifetime vote, there would not be any more referendums on leaving the EU, regardless of whether the EU listened or not.
Does the EU ever listen? Based on the number of EU member countries complaining bitterly about the EU and planning referendums, it's clear the EU do what they want, and the member countries wishes/wants are of little consequence.
The UK will not get a say once we leave the EU, in fact we don't get one now despite still being a member!
andymadmak said:
I didn't ask who set up the vote, I was asking an individual Pher on the basis of what he had himself posted.
That being said, I don't understand why you think voting Remain would have given UK bargaining power? Junker had already comprehensively dismissed this notion on the eve of the poll. Voting Remain would almost certainly have hardened the EU position against UK attempts at renegotiation.
And just what are these changes that you now concede could have been made? Do you feel that they were necessary changes? Can you clarify what your position would have been if the changes you felt were necessary had not been made? What exactly was the Remain side voting for? More of the same? More of the same with some changes? Not the same but not sure what it looks like but still in? Clarity would be nice?
It's not about what I think. If you think the government would ignore the 48% had the vote been the other way that's up to you.That being said, I don't understand why you think voting Remain would have given UK bargaining power? Junker had already comprehensively dismissed this notion on the eve of the poll. Voting Remain would almost certainly have hardened the EU position against UK attempts at renegotiation.
And just what are these changes that you now concede could have been made? Do you feel that they were necessary changes? Can you clarify what your position would have been if the changes you felt were necessary had not been made? What exactly was the Remain side voting for? More of the same? More of the same with some changes? Not the same but not sure what it looks like but still in? Clarity would be nice?
I personally think they could have used it to their advantage with the EU, hence what Stanley Johnson was saying.
Ghibli said:
alfie2244 said:
Not sure I'd still be about in another 40 years.....but that said my grandad made 97...so maybe.
Fair enough, our children and grand kids will be though.I'm not sure why it would take 40 years to negotiate and have another referendum.
I'm having my ashes sprinkled in the Rivor Avon so they can't jump on my grave if wrong.
Ghibli said:
I personally think they could have used it to their advantage with the EU,
How? In what way? We were being asked to vote for Remaining in a reformed EU. What would it have looked like? You keep asking Brexiters what the future will hold, and criticising them when they "don't have a plan".... Yet the Remain side also could not say what the future shape of our relationship would be either.... Indeed, the only people who WOULD say what it would look like were the EU politicians and they were saying we were NOT going to get what we wanted. Who to believe? I can't believe that the Government and the opposition did not have a plan for a Remain victory, but you seem to be saying that the future would have been uncertain in the event of either result.
You also seem to think that the Government would have respected the wishes of the 48% Brexit voters....... can I just say I have these magic beans that you should buy.... .
Ghibli said:
Interesting that two different leave voters ask what issues they have with the EU.
You are welcome to explain why you voted leave. You will also then know.what these issues are.
Not so fast Tonto! You have said that there were issues that needed to be sorted out. You have said that a vote to Remain would have given the Government more power to do this. What were the issues in your view and how would a Remain vote have secured a favourable resolution of them given the absolute clarity with which Junker addressed (dismissed) the issue of UK renegotiation just before the Referendum? You are welcome to explain why you voted leave. You will also then know.what these issues are.
andymadmak said:
Not so fast Tonto! You have said that there were issues that needed to be sorted out. You have said that a vote to Remain would have given the Government more power to do this. What were the issues in your view and how would a Remain vote have secured a favourable resolution of them given the absolute clarity with which Junker addressed (dismissed) the issue of UK renegotiation just before the Referendum?
It is you who has the issues and had the vote been the other way they could have been discussed while in the EU.As to what they are is your choice, it could be the 350m, immigration.......?
andymadmak said:
Ghibli said:
Had the vote gone in favour of remain IMO we would have had some bargaining power with the EU and changes could have possibly been made.
I am quoting you verbatim. What changes? Or would you expect the referendum to be forgotten and the 48% forgotten.
paulrockliffe said:
///ajd said:
But a good proportion of 48% think the whole thing is a cringeworthy shambles anyway
I know loads of people that voted to remain that weren't bothered in the slightest that the vote was to leave as they were very soft remainers. They mostly voted remain because of the worry over economic armageddon, which they can now see hasn't happened.Interesting pitches by the labour leadership challenger, promising another vote after the deal to decide to stay or go, even though article 50 does not permit us to do that.
Are you going to answer my queries Ghibli or are you going to dodge them?
As it is we get no say and no one knows what they are getting.So you think if we voted to remain various issues would still be discussed.
What issues specifically?
As you voted to remain, what issues have you got with being an EU member?
The UK has been in the EU for years,and had a voice.
Cameron came back with his reforms just before calling the referendum, and within days the EU were stating that they were not legally binding, despite Cameron's pledge to the people.
Why would there have been a second referendum once we voted to remain?
Cameron stated it was a once in a lifetime vote, there would not be any more referendums on leaving the EU, regardless of whether the EU listened or not.
Does the EU ever listen? Based on the number of EU member countries complaining bitterly about the EU and planning referendums, it's clear the EU do what they want, and the member countries wishes/wants are of little consequence.
The UK will not get a say once we leave the EU, in fact we don't get one now despite still being a member!
don'tbesilly said:
Ghibli said:
don'tbesilly said:
Can you explain how a vote to remain would have given the UK some bargaining power?
What changes could possibly have been made had we voted to remain?
Why the need for any changes?
A vote to remain in the referendum by the people who voted would have been an acceptance of everything good/bad about membership of the EU.
Why would the EU be prepared to consider/sanction any changes?
The country would have accepted the status quo by voting to remain.
If the vote had been 52-48 remain various issues would still be discussed. I doubt it would be a case of get stuffed you bad lossers.The government would still have a voice in the EU. A second referendum could still be on the cards if the EU didn't listen and perhaps a bigger leave vote.What changes could possibly have been made had we voted to remain?
Why the need for any changes?
A vote to remain in the referendum by the people who voted would have been an acceptance of everything good/bad about membership of the EU.
Why would the EU be prepared to consider/sanction any changes?
The country would have accepted the status quo by voting to remain.
As it is we get no say and no one knows what they are getting.
What issues specifically?
As you voted to remain, what issues have you got with being an EU member?
The UK has been in the EU for years,and had a voice.
Cameron came back with his reforms just before calling the referendum, and within days the EU were stating that they were not legally binding, despite Cameron's pledge to the people.
Why would there have been a second referendum once we voted to remain?
Cameron stated it was a once in a lifetime vote, there would not be any more referendums on leaving the EU, regardless of whether the EU listened or not.
Does the EU ever listen? Based on the number of EU member countries complaining bitterly about the EU and planning referendums, it's clear the EU do what they want, and the member countries wishes/wants are of little consequence.
The UK will not get a say once we leave the EU, in fact we don't get one now despite still being a member!
Ghibli said:
andymadmak said:
Ghibli said:
Had the vote gone in favour of remain IMO we would have had some bargaining power with the EU and changes could have possibly been made.
I am quoting you verbatim. What changes? Or would you expect the referendum to be forgotten and the 48% forgotten.
Gary C said:
I think its a bit early to judge the long term effect on the economy, given we haven't even left yet.
Interesting pitches by the labour leadership challenger, promising another vote after the deal to decide to stay or go, even though article 50 does not permit us to do that.
My interpretation of A50 is that Owen Smith is correct.Interesting pitches by the labour leadership challenger, promising another vote after the deal to decide to stay or go, even though article 50 does not permit us to do that.
Ghibli said:
Put it this way, had it been Germany having the referendum and they chose to stay with a 52% vote.
Would we say the 48% can get stuffed we don't want to know ?
Or
Would we say lets listen to what they have to say on the issues they have with the EU ?
The former, like we and the EU have done for every other referenda...even the ones that had a majority against further EU integration. As long as the train stays on the tracks, that's all that's important.Would we say the 48% can get stuffed we don't want to know ?
Or
Would we say lets listen to what they have to say on the issues they have with the EU ?
Ghibli said:
Put it this way, had it been Germany having the referendum and they chose to stay with a 52% vote.
Would we say the 48% can get stuffed we don't want to know ?
Or
Would we say lets listen to what they have to say on the issues they have with the EU ?
I would like to think that people would be sufficiently grown up to acknowledge the concerns of a sizeable minority.Would we say the 48% can get stuffed we don't want to know ?
Or
Would we say lets listen to what they have to say on the issues they have with the EU ?
Jockman said:
I would like to think that people would be sufficiently grown up to acknowledge the concerns of a sizeable minority.
It wouldn't happen. The Remainers would know they were correct and the 48% were either stupid or lied to and didn't know what they were doing. The concern would be about how a referendum nearly caused the wrong result and how it mustn't ever happen again.Jockman said:
Gary C said:
I think its a bit early to judge the long term effect on the economy, given we haven't even left yet.
Interesting pitches by the labour leadership challenger, promising another vote after the deal to decide to stay or go, even though article 50 does not permit us to do that.
My interpretation of A50 is that Owen Smith is correct.Interesting pitches by the labour leadership challenger, promising another vote after the deal to decide to stay or go, even though article 50 does not permit us to do that.
Certainly Angela Merkel's interpretation that triggering a50 means no return and the negotiation will only happen after triggering.
CaptainSlow said:
Jockman said:
I would like to think that people would be sufficiently grown up to acknowledge the concerns of a sizeable minority.
It wouldn't happen. The Remainers would know they were correct and the 48% were either stupid or lied to and didn't know what they were doing. The concern would be about how a referendum nearly caused the wrong result and how it mustn't ever happen again.Had it been Germany, I'm guessing the UK would be willing to listen to their concerns.
Gary C said:
Jockman said:
Gary C said:
I think its a bit early to judge the long term effect on the economy, given we haven't even left yet.
Interesting pitches by the labour leadership challenger, promising another vote after the deal to decide to stay or go, even though article 50 does not permit us to do that.
My interpretation of A50 is that Owen Smith is correct.Interesting pitches by the labour leadership challenger, promising another vote after the deal to decide to stay or go, even though article 50 does not permit us to do that.
Certainly Angela Merkel's interpretation that triggering a50 means no return and the negotiation will only happen after triggering.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/...
As with all untested procedures, it remains open to interpretation.
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