Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result

[p1stonhead]

Mario149 said:

marshalla said:

sidicks said:

jonnyb said:

How about this one?

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-ba...

Surely the fact there needs to be a Parliamentary vote before Article 50 can be implemented is not new news?

That does seem to be the important bit. A referendum is purely advisory, so taking action purely on the basis of it may not be in accordance with the constitution (as viewed from outside). Whoever pulls the trigger needs to be certain that they've followed a process which is demonstrably sound from the point of view of all interested parties.

Which then begs the question: should MPs vote for what the people appear to want or what they think is best for the country as a whole? The latter would likely give a Remain result.

Or to give another example: if Labour had won the last election on a manifesto promise to hold a ref whereby we could all vote on whether we'd be given £1K tax free every month, and we voted yes, you wouldn't automatically expect MPs to vote it through in Parliament. We might as a majority want our £1K every month, but if MPs thought it would be to the detriment of our country overall, they'd be remiss (and in breach of their responsibilities) to approve it. We might be pissed off, but then we'd exercise our democratic power and bin them at the next election and vote in the "Give Me £1K Party".

I have no doubt in my mind the MP's will vote for what they feel is best for the country, whether this opposes the results of the referendum or not. They would be reckless to do otherwise. Im sure they will take the vote into account, but it wont overrule their own beliefs on what they should do.

This may cause a ststorm

[Timmy40]

Sylvaforever said:

Well with the opening gambits of the Tory infight it would seem that the resounding exit result is in the progress of being confined to the histoory books bt the Tory Party.

Roll on the next GE!!

Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn. It's going to happen you know. Largely because the Tory Party will pull itself to pieces and whoever replaces CMD won't have his charisma. I just hope against hope that the PLP can unseat him but I doubt it. And incase there's any doubt I think we're established quite how thick the public are lot of them love JC.

[Dr Jekyll]

Timmy40 said:

Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn. It's going to happen you know. Largely because the Tory Party will pull itself to pieces and whoever replaces CMD won't have his charisma. I just hope against hope that the PLP can unseat him but I doubt it. And incase there's any doubt I think we're established quite how thick the public are lot of them love JC.

But given that the PLP can't stand him the only support he's got are the left wing of the party membership and a few unions. And if there is one thing that crowd cannot forgive a Labour leader for it's winning an election. Can't see him lasting long as leader in that case.

[Fittster]

Dr Jekyll said:

Timmy40 said:

Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn. It's going to happen you know. Largely because the Tory Party will pull itself to pieces and whoever replaces CMD won't have his charisma. I just hope against hope that the PLP can unseat him but I doubt it. And incase there's any doubt I think we're established quite how thick the public are lot of them love JC.

But given that the PLP can't stand him the only support he's got are the left wing of the party membership and a few unions. And if there is one thing that crowd cannot forgive a Labour leader for it's winning an election. Can't see him lasting long as leader in that case.

The leftwing of the party membership and a few unions?

He's got the majority of the party membership as proved by his election and he's got all the big unions (so he's got the numbers and the cash). The SDP could be revived for the PLP.

[Mr GrimNasty]

Sylvaforever said:

Well with the opening gambits of the Tory infight it would seem that the resounding exit result is in the progress of being confined to the histoory books bt the Tory Party.

Roll on the next GE!!

All the realistic candidates even staunch Remainers have pledged to implement Brexit.

Gove/Boris is a rational transaction, not infighting - no point splitting the vote when realistically Boris would not make a good leader and isn't respected as a serious politician by a lot of the public.

Gove is an absolute heavyweight, just watch a few of his question time performances whilst in education, immensely impressive.

I'm afraid you are clutching at straws.

[Camoradi]

jonnyb said:

Camoradi said:

.....

With respect, I believe you are misrepresenting what the article says, notwithstanding the source.

How about this one?

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/06/27/nick-ba...

I've no idea if you've misinterpreted that one. Sorry

[Mario149]

Mr GrimNasty said:

All the realistic candidates even staunch Remainers have pledged to implement Brexit.

Of course they have. They have to tow the party line for a start ("Support the will of the people"), they can't be immediately seen to be going against such a fresh referendum and also not send the markets mental by sending mixed signals.

Put a Remainer in charge and all is to play for. If a general election is called, a party standing on a Remain platform may win and get a new mandate to Remain, or if one isn't called, Article 50 won't come around for ages meanwhile our economy starts its slide and people see the damage Brexit is causing, it will also require a parliamentary vote, they're unlikely to whip it, so there's a better than evens chance it wouldn't go through and again we Remain.

Fingers crossed

[Sylvaforever]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Sylvaforever said:

Well with the opening gambits of the Tory infight it would seem that the resounding exit result is in the progress of being confined to the histoory books bt the Tory Party.

Roll on the next GE!!

All the realistic candidates even staunch Remainers have pledged to implement Brexit.

Gove/Boris is a rational transaction, not infighting - no point splitting the vote when realistically Boris would not make a good leader and isn't respected as a serious politician by a lot of the public.

Gove is an absolute heavyweight, just watch a few of his question time performances whilst in education, immensely impressive.

I'm afraid you are clutching at straws.

I hope that you are correct in the above assumption, however (All the realistic candidates even staunch Remainers have pledged to implement Brexit.) politicians and keeping their word??

Roll on the GE and hopefully a return to real democracy and the destruction of the political parties that have combined to drag this country down to where it is now.

edited for usual tablet fingers lol

[Zod]

Camoradi said:

jonnyb said:

The population of the U.K. Is 65m. Only 17.5M voted leave. That leaves a huge proportion of the population that had no vote, didn't vote, or voted to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun...

Another opinion on the legality of the whole thing

The losing side will always question the result in these things, seizing on any opinion which puts the result in doubt.

Like Farage in Thanet perhaps?

[Timmy40]

Mario149 said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

All the realistic candidates even staunch Remainers have pledged to implement Brexit.

Of course they have. They have to tow the party line for a start ("Support the will of the people"), they can't be immediately seen to be going against such a fresh referendum and also not send the markets mental by sending mixed signals.

Put a Remainer in charge and all is to play for. If a general election is called, a party standing on a Remain platform may win and get a new mandate to Remain, or if one isn't called, Article 50 won't come around for ages meanwhile our economy starts its slide and people see the damage Brexit is causing, it will also require a parliamentary vote, they're unlikely to whip it, so there's a better than evens chance it wouldn't go through and again we Remain.

Fingers crossed

The LibDems are running on ticket of halting the Brexit. All it takes is a GE resulting in a Lib-Lab-SNP coalition with a pledge to either re-run the referendum or ignore it altogether.

[jshell]

Timmy40 said:

Mario149 said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

All the realistic candidates even staunch Remainers have pledged to implement Brexit.

Of course they have. They have to tow the party line for a start ("Support the will of the people"), they can't be immediately seen to be going against such a fresh referendum and also not send the markets mental by sending mixed signals.

Put a Remainer in charge and all is to play for. If a general election is called, a party standing on a Remain platform may win and get a new mandate to Remain, or if one isn't called, Article 50 won't come around for ages meanwhile our economy starts its slide and people see the damage Brexit is causing, it will also require a parliamentary vote, they're unlikely to whip it, so there's a better than evens chance it wouldn't go through and again we Remain.

Fingers crossed

The LibDems are running on ticket of halting the Brexit. All it takes is a GE resulting in a Lib-Lab-SNP coalition with a pledge to either re-run the referendum or ignore it altogether.

Hmm, we've properly pissed off the major EU members and then you think going back sniveling & grovelling would be a good idea. You're fking mental. The BBC wouldn't have to foment disorder, it could actually happen!

[Timmy40]

jshell said:

Timmy40 said:

Mario149 said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

All the realistic candidates even staunch Remainers have pledged to implement Brexit.

Of course they have. They have to tow the party line for a start ("Support the will of the people"), they can't be immediately seen to be going against such a fresh referendum and also not send the markets mental by sending mixed signals.

Put a Remainer in charge and all is to play for. If a general election is called, a party standing on a Remain platform may win and get a new mandate to Remain, or if one isn't called, Article 50 won't come around for ages meanwhile our economy starts its slide and people see the damage Brexit is causing, it will also require a parliamentary vote, they're unlikely to whip it, so there's a better than evens chance it wouldn't go through and again we Remain.

Fingers crossed

The LibDems are running on ticket of halting the Brexit. All it takes is a GE resulting in a Lib-Lab-SNP coalition with a pledge to either re-run the referendum or ignore it altogether.

Hmm, we've properly pissed off the major EU members and then you think going back sniveling & grovelling would be a good idea. You're fking mental. The BBC wouldn't have to foment disorder, it could actually happen!

No personally I don't think it's a great idea, that doesn't mean it won't happen. And tone down the abuse please, this is supposed to be a grown ups Forum where adults who can see scenarios other than the ones they would personally wish for might play out without throwing abuse at each other.

[RizzoTheRat]

jshell said:

Hmm, we've properly pissed off the major EU members and then you think going back sniveling & grovelling would be a good idea. You're fking mental. The BBC wouldn't have to foment disorder, it could actually happen!

Why would there be any snivelling and grovelling? We're currently members of the EU, in that scenario we wouldn't have left the EU so wouldn't be asking for anything from them.

The problem would still be that people would be uncertain if the UK might decide to leave at a later date, and that would likely reduce foreign investment in the UK in the same way that an exit or the current uncertainty is likely to.

[p1stonhead]

RizzoTheRat said:

jshell said:

Hmm, we've properly pissed off the major EU members and then you think going back sniveling & grovelling would be a good idea. You're fking mental. The BBC wouldn't have to foment disorder, it could actually happen!

Why would there be any snivelling and grovelling? .

Because we would be the fking morons who threw our toys out of the pram, then realised we wanted them and didnt have another plan, so we came crawiling back very gingerly. It would be embarassing.

[Mario149]

RizzoTheRat said:

The problem would still be that people would be uncertain if the UK might decide to leave at a later date, and that would likely reduce foreign investment in the UK in the same way that an exit or the current uncertainty is likely to.

It might a bit, but if we stay in it'll be because coming out just looked too damn painful and difficult. No-one's going to want a rerun of that anytime soon no matter how eurosceptic you are I suspect.

[RizzoTheRat]

p1stonhead said:

Because we would be the fking morons who threw our toys out of the pram, then realised we wanted them and didnt have another plan, so we came crawiling back very gingerly. It would be embarassing.

Difficult to crawl back if you haven't been anywhere

Mario149 said:

It might a bit, but if we stay in it'll be because coming out just looked too damn painful and difficult. No-one's going to want a rerun of that anytime soon no matter how eurosceptic you are I suspect.

At a guess I'd say about half the population would want to.

[p1stonhead]

RizzoTheRat said:

p1stonhead said:

Because we would be the fking morons who threw our toys out of the pram, then realised we wanted them and didnt have another plan, so we came crawiling back very gingerly. It would be embarassing.

Difficult to crawl back if you haven't been anywhere

Except they know we intend to. If we change our mind its just down to us bottling it. We would be as cowardly as Boris.

[RizzoTheRat]

p1stonhead said:

Except they know we intend to. If we change our mind its just down to us bottling it. We would be as cowardly as Boris.

So? What would that actually change?

[405dogvan]

As a Remain voter I really wish people would stop moaning and accept the result - really - I'd rather lose a vote than be the whiney tt who says "but..." all the time...

There is another step many people believe must happen tho - there seem to be some quite influential people who've highlighted that PARLIAMENT must decide to invoke Article 50 - not just the PM

That would mean a vote to pass an Act - that would mean MPs would have to choose between their own views (majority Remain) or the views of the people they represent (which the referendum strongly highlights)

This could shake-up UK politics a LOT more than last week's decision - I'd foresee a few resignations, a few defiances leading to death at the next election etc. etc. for sure - but it's a flags-in-the-ground moment.

For that reason, I expect they'll ignore this and move along quietly but many people believe they must do this and it's a hurdle which must be passed.

[Timmy40]

RizzoTheRat said:

p1stonhead said:

Except they know we intend to. If we change our mind its just down to us bottling it. We would be as cowardly as Boris.

So? What would that actually change?

Indeed. I'm sorry but this is exactly how I see it playing out. LibDems are running on a remain ticket, the SNP want to remain, Labour officially want to remain. And unless there's a shock Tory landslide at the next GE what will happen is a Lib/Lab coalition along with the SNP reversing the Brexit, probably with lots of references to the fact that the alternative is to break up the UK.

As has been repteadly said.....aint democracy a bh.