Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result

[anonymous-user]

Strocky said:

|http://thumbsnap.com/xq2a1zyd[/url]

Someone needs to send him the memo that we wont be party to the Lisbon treaty when we leave the EU.

It's all well and good telling us to read the Lisbon treaty, we already did that and rejected it.

The game now is to come up with a deal outside of that treaties jurisdiction.

[PurpleMoonlight]

bmw535i said:

Anyone here still really think we're going to see a u-turn?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/n...

This from a man that was to much of a wimp to go for being PM so he could control Brexit.

Boris is a joke.

[Stickyfinger]

jsf said:

Strocky said:

|http://thumbsnap.com/xq2a1zyd[/url]

Someone needs to send him the memo that we wont be party to the Lisbon treaty when we leave the EU.

It's all well and good telling us to read the Lisbon treaty, we already did that and rejected it.

The game now is to come up with a deal outside of that treaties jurisdiction.

He is not doing well is he

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/26/deutsche-bank-slide...

[anonymous-user]

PurpleMoonlight said:

This from a man that was to much of a wimp to go for being PM so he could control Brexit.

Boris is a joke.

I'll bet you're not laughing though - despite "not caring"

[Fastdruid]

Stickyfinger said:

jsf said:

Strocky said:

|http://thumbsnap.com/xq2a1zyd[/url]

Someone needs to send him the memo that we wont be party to the Lisbon treaty when we leave the EU.

It's all well and good telling us to read the Lisbon treaty, we already did that and rejected it.

The game now is to come up with a deal outside of that treaties jurisdiction.

He is not doing well is he

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/26/deutsche-bank-slide...

Jesus. DB is almost the definition of too big to fail. I can't see how they can't. They fail and that's pretty much the EU down the pan.

I know it's zerohedge which are somewhat sensationalist and doom-mongers but http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-20/could-ger...

[PurpleMoonlight]

bmw535i said:

I'll bet you're not laughing though - despite "not caring"

Oh I always laugh at Boris, I find him impossible to take seriously. But he is dangerous and will do anything for his own best interests.

[Stickyfinger]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Oh I always laugh at Boris, I find him impossible to take seriously. But he is dangerous and will do anything for his own best interests.

then you do not really understand what he is do you....it is why he is where he is and you are posting crap on a car forum.

[Elysium]

bmw535i said:

Anyone here still really think we're going to see a u-turn?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/n...

Once again, you are making the mistake of believing articles from the Express, which is willing to spin any statement, no matter how inconsequential, to suit it's rapidly pro-brexit agenda.

An actual quote of what Johnson said can read here:

http://www.cityam.com/250033/boris-johnson-hints-a...

He is advocating a time scale even more cautious than Theresa May. Government policy has always been that A50 will not be triggered until 2017. Earlier this week Johnson was suggesting Q1 2017. This latest statement moves it back to Q2 2017. Somehow the Express interpret this as 'lets get on with it'. It would be laughable if people did not fall for it.

http://www.cityam.com/249935/boris-johnson-says-uk...

[PurpleMoonlight]

Stickyfinger said:

then you do not really understand what he is do you....it is why he is where he is and you are posting crap on a car forum.

Awww, got a bit of a crush on him have you?

[Elysium]

Govt policy remains clear that Article 50 will not be triggered until 2017. This will not change until the legal challenge to the use of the Royal Prerogative is decided, which will be October at the earliest.

There is a further challenge now to the Governments decision not to publish their defence, which will be considered alongside the original one:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/23/a...

There is a very interesting piece here by John Halford of Bindmans, which argues that this is about the arbitrary removal of our rights, rather than an attempt to block Brexit.

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/parliament-sho...

I agree with his position, the challenge is not impacting the Govt's timetable by their own admission. I never expected Govt to use executive powers to act on the referendum without further parliamentary debate and it seems right and in the interests of democracy that this concept is being challenged.

If the challenge is upheld and a debate is required I don't think it will stop us leaving the EU, but I do think it will limit the Govt's opportunity to push a poor deal through by the back door.

Strangely enough, the Express view on all of this is pretty much as expected:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/714106/Brexit-cam...

Edited by Elysium on Monday 26th September 12:33

[don'tbesilly]

Elysium said:

bmw535i said:

Anyone here still really think we're going to see a u-turn?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/n...

This latest statement moves it back to Q2 2017.

Makes sense, Hollande will be history, Merkel will follow and appear in the history books in Q3.

[confused_buyer]

Elysium said:

There is a very interesting piece here by John Halford of Bindmans, which argues that this is about the arbitrary removal of our rights, rather than an attempt to block Brexit.

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/parliament-sho...

Edited by Elysium on Monday 26th September 12:33

I can see the argument, but saying that it is not an attempt to block Brexit is a little but untrue. He says "This challenge is not being brought to reject or ignore the 17.1 million votes cast on 23rd June to change the status-quo and leave the EU." then spends the rest of the article basically arguing why it should be blocked.

[confused_buyer]

don'tbesilly said:

Makes sense, Hollande will be history, Merkel will follow and appear in the history books in Q3.

If we trigger Article 50 at 8.00am on Monday March 6 2017 then I can guarantee whatever final deal gets to be done will be done by 28 argumentative and tired people at 7.45am on March 6 2019. It is just the European way.

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

b2hbm said:

confused_buyer said:

Yes, until we actually Leave we have full rights (and obligations). We are obviously not included in meetings to discuss the EU's negotiating position and neither are they included in ours. Other than that we are full members. We could just veto and block everything but to what end I'm not sure and is not likely to foster a very positive atmosphere!

I'm not 100% but I think UK MEPs even get to vote on the deal.

The Treaty actually says:

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

So the only discussions we are excluded from are those in Paragraphs 2 & 3. The day-to-day working of the EU goes on as normal.

Edited by confused_buyer on Sunday 25th September 18:04

Thanks to yourself & JSF for the explanation.

That lines up with my original impression, but after reading the link I was wondering if it was true. I can see the logic in not voting on the final deal, but being a loose cannon around other EU meetings does seem a bit odd. I'm a bit surprised they allowed that, perhaps the negotiations will be friendly after all !

To be fair the confusion is understandable since prior to the referendum it was an argument frequently bandied around by the press and Remainers who didn't understand the wording of the Treaty. Maybe it was ignorance, maybe it was deliberately done, who knows, who cares, but say it often enough and a misdirection can become the truth.

I think it's fair to accept that there could be some things which the UK might choose not to get involved with, even though technically still permitted to do so. Personally don't have an issue with that.

The UK gave up our presidency of the EU council which was due to start mid 2017. We have already stepped aside from driving the agenda and allowed them to go down their own path, when we could have been right royal pains in the arses if we wanted to.

That good deed wont be recognised by the EU elite.

[don'tbesilly]

Elysium said:

There is a very interesting piece here by John Halford of Bindmans, which argues that this is about the arbitrary removal of our rights, rather than an attempt to block Brexit.

https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/parliament-sho...

I agree with his position, the challenge is not impacting the Govt's timetable by their own admission. I never expected Govt to use executive powers to act on the referendum without further parliamentary debate and it seems right and in the interests of democracy that this concept is being challenged.

Edited by Elysium on Monday 26th September 12:33

So the first attempt at democracy (the referendum) which the remain campaign expected to win which was unexpectedly lost, now want a second attempt at democracy because they can't accept the result of the first attempt.

Most people who voted, and as pointed out in the Conservative manifesto that the result would be honoured, did expect the government to do as promised, act as promised and invoke Article 50 as promised once the result was announced.
A delay in doing so (invoking A50) is more than reasonable, but most were not expecting what you are, or what you are agreeing with.

Your further comment about democracy is laughable, however you dress it up.

Only in the UK could wealth and elitism argue the democratic and legitimate process.

How much did you pledge?

[don4l]

craigjm said:

bmw535i said:

Anyone here still really think we're going to see a u-turn?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/n...

Problem is, this is not Theresa May saying this. She has already publically slapped Johnson down for some of his comments. Before anyone gets excited that there is a timetable and a plan it really needs to come out of the mouth of the one person who is actually able to push the button.

I think that you missed the point where she said "Brexit means Brexit".

Some people seem to struggle with those remarkably simple words.

Unfortunately, it cannot be phrased in more simple terms. I wonder how these people will react when Article 50 is invoked. They will probably say "but, but we haven't actually left yet."

[Mrr T]

confused_buyer said:

If we trigger Article 50 at 8.00am on Monday March 6 2017 then I can guarantee whatever final deal gets to be done will be done by 28 argumentative and tired people at 7.45am on March 6 2019. It is just the European way.

You really think that?

You obvious have no idea how this will work,

For one thing there will not be 28 people there will be 2 sides the UK and the rEU representing the Council with I am sure observers from the commission and the parliament.

It will not be late nights and hard bargaining it will all be consultation.

So day one post Art 50 notice the UK delegate enters and presents the UK plan. A new treat which gives the UK everything it wants and nothing it does not.

rEU delegation says very interesting we shall inform all the effected parties of your presentation and consult with them before we answer. Shall we meet in a month.

UK delegates say they cannot wait a month. rEU delegates say sorry but we must consult with all 27 Governments the commission and the parliament.

A month later they all meet again. UK delegates asks if they have a reply. rEU delegates say while there has been many meeting no consensus has emerged and they will need another month.

A month later they all meet again and the same thing happens.

A month later they all meet again the rEU confirms they have consulted and are prepared to consider a separate treaty.

The UK delegate asks for comments on the points submitted at the first meeting. The rEU delegate confirms so far the consultations have only agreed that they will consider a special treaty no consideration has been give to its contents. they suggest meeting again in 3 months when they have consulted with all the interested parties. The UK delegates beg for a quicker response. The rEU delegates say they will try.

3 months later they meet again. rEU delegate confirms they have had many meeting with the interested parties and no consensus has been met. They suggest another meeting in 3 months.

3 months later they meet again. rEU delegate say that while come agreement had been obtained 2 of those Governments had changed and the incoming Governments needed more time to consider the options.

3 months later they meet again. rEU delegate say that 1 of those new Governments do not agree they can proceed with a separate treaty. Further the Belgum government has fallen and current no party can form a Government so its impossible to do anything at the moment.

3 months later they meet again. rEU delegate say Belgum still has no party which can form a Government so its impossible to do anything at the moment. They are hopeful elections in 2 months time will resolve the delay.

Now this is the European way.

[don4l]

PurpleMoonlight said:

bmw535i said:

I'll bet you're not laughing though - despite "not caring"

Oh I always laugh at Boris, I find him impossible to take seriously. But he is dangerous and will do anything for his own best interests.

I bet that you laughed at Nigel Farage also.


You're not laughing now.

[WinstonWolf]

Mrr T said:

confused_buyer said:

If we trigger Article 50 at 8.00am on Monday March 6 2017 then I can guarantee whatever final deal gets to be done will be done by 28 argumentative and tired people at 7.45am on March 6 2019. It is just the European way.

You really think that?

You obvious have no idea how this will work,

For one thing there will not be 28 people there will be 2 sides the UK and the rEU representing the Council with I am sure observers from the commission and the parliament.

It will not be late nights and hard bargaining it will all be consultation.

So day one post Art 50 notice the UK delegate enters and presents the UK plan. A new treat which gives the UK everything it wants and nothing it does not.

rEU delegation says very interesting we shall inform all the effected parties of your presentation and consult with them before we answer. Shall we meet in a month.

UK delegates say they cannot wait a month. rEU delegates say sorry but we must consult with all 27 Governments the commission and the parliament.

A month later they all meet again. UK delegates asks if they have a reply. rEU delegates say while there has been many meeting no consensus has emerged and they will need another month.

A month later they all meet again and the same thing happens.

A month later they all meet again the rEU confirms they have consulted and are prepared to consider a separate treaty.

The UK delegate asks for comments on the points submitted at the first meeting. The rEU delegate confirms so far the consultations have only agreed that they will consider a special treaty no consideration has been give to its contents. they suggest meeting again in 3 months when they have consulted with all the interested parties. The UK delegates beg for a quicker response. The rEU delegates say they will try.

3 months later they meet again. rEU delegate confirms they have had many meeting with the interested parties and no consensus has been met. They suggest another meeting in 3 months.

3 months later they meet again. rEU delegate say that while come agreement had been obtained 2 of those Governments had changed and the incoming Governments needed more time to consider the options.

3 months later they meet again. rEU delegate say that 1 of those new Governments do not agree they can proceed with a separate treaty. Further the Belgum government has fallen and current no party can form a Government so its impossible to do anything at the moment.

3 months later they meet again. rEU delegate say Belgum still has no party which can form a Government so its impossible to do anything at the moment. They are hopeful elections in 2 months time will resolve the delay.

Now this is the European way.

And you wonder the majority voted to leave.

[Jockman]

Mrr T said:

Scenario stuff

Possible. Adds credence to don4l's viewpoint about it being a waste of time negotiating.