Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result
Discussion
AC43 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Remainers, where do you see yourselves on this? I suspect most of you are still on the downward slope, it'll pass in time.
The problem is that I thought long and hard about this before the referendum and nothing has changed to make me feel better - in fact quite the reverse.
In fact, when discussing the whole thing with friends, colleagues and neighbours I often end up back at Shock.
To the extent that I actually try to stop myself talking about it at all.
Edited by AC43 on Tuesday 27th September 12:41
This suggests that you might be further along the graph than you realise.
I have to admit that I thought that 5 years down the road we would still have people saying "but, but it would have been even better".
Sway said:
With respect, it sounds like you're thinking about this in the wrong way - the choice about whether to remain or leave.
If you come at it from the view that the decision is made, and it isn't going to change, then the question becomes 'how can I/we make the best of it?'. Using that approach is hugely powerful, as often it's the previous proponents of the opposite choice that are looking at things differently and can therefore come up with options and alternatives that those who've been bought into the current direction haven't...
It is a real pity that these conversations have not started.If you come at it from the view that the decision is made, and it isn't going to change, then the question becomes 'how can I/we make the best of it?'. Using that approach is hugely powerful, as often it's the previous proponents of the opposite choice that are looking at things differently and can therefore come up with options and alternatives that those who've been bought into the current direction haven't...
Instead of bickering over the result we should be discussing which EU regulations we will drop.
WEEE would be a good place to start. It achhieves absolutely nothing, and it places a cost on industry.
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
Labour Party Conference 'decision'
"[Conference] recognises that many of those who voted to leave the EU were expressing dissatisfaction with EU or national policy and were voting for change, but believes that unless the final settlement proves to be acceptable then the option of retaining EU membership should be retained. The final settlement should therefore be subject to approval, through parliament and potentially through a general election, or a referendum."
Predictions are that Corbyn won't take this anywhere, but where does that put Labour on that graph?
"[Conference] recognises that many of those who voted to leave the EU were expressing dissatisfaction with EU or national policy and were voting for change, but believes that unless the final settlement proves to be acceptable then the option of retaining EU membership should be retained. The final settlement should therefore be subject to approval, through parliament and potentially through a general election, or a referendum."
Predictions are that Corbyn won't take this anywhere, but where does that put Labour on that graph?
don4l said:
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
I don't have 4 or 5 bins. Am I being cheated by my council against EU law?Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
In what way is the light from my bulbs improper?
No we should have more wind power obliterating the horizon and new cheap nuclear power provided by the french and financed by the chinese.
don4l said:
we should be discussing which EU regulations we will drop.
WEEE would be a good place to start. It achhieves absolutely nothing, and it places a cost on industry.
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
In terms of net cost though all of that is chicken feed. The big net costs to the UK economy come from the climate targets, the rules set around bank capital and the rules on payments across the EU. Those three alone contribute £45bn net cost to the UK economy.WEEE would be a good place to start. It achhieves absolutely nothing, and it places a cost on industry.
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
craigjm said:
don4l said:
we should be discussing which EU regulations we will drop.
WEEE would be a good place to start. It achhieves absolutely nothing, and it places a cost on industry.
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
In terms of net cost though all of that is chicken feed. The big net costs to the UK economy come from the climate targets, the rules set around bank capital and the rules on payments across the EU. Those three alone contribute £45bn net cost to the UK economy.WEEE would be a good place to start. It achhieves absolutely nothing, and it places a cost on industry.
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
FiF said:
Labour Party Conference 'decision'
"[Conference] recognises that many of those who voted to leave the EU were expressing dissatisfaction with EU or national policy and were voting for change, but believes that unless the final settlement proves to be acceptable then the option of retaining EU membership should be retained. The final settlement should therefore be subject to approval, through parliament and potentially through a general election, or a referendum."
Predictions are that Corbyn won't take this anywhere, but where does that put Labour on that graph?
It leaves Labour in confusion and disarray but what's new there?!"[Conference] recognises that many of those who voted to leave the EU were expressing dissatisfaction with EU or national policy and were voting for change, but believes that unless the final settlement proves to be acceptable then the option of retaining EU membership should be retained. The final settlement should therefore be subject to approval, through parliament and potentially through a general election, or a referendum."
Predictions are that Corbyn won't take this anywhere, but where does that put Labour on that graph?
However, the point that keeps getting missed is that by the time we've reached a "final settlement" Article 50 will have been invoked (serious negotiations won't even start until that's happened) and we can't then withdraw our notice to leave unilaterally (that requires the agreement of the other EU members). Therefore, if Parliament or the electorate vote on a final settlement they will have to do so in the knowledge that staying as we are within the EU - complete with ops-outs and vetoes - almost certainly won't be an option. Instead, the choice at that stage will be to either leave or remain on terms that will (in all probability) be far worse than those we have at the moment (in which case confirming the vote to leave will almost certainly be the result).
As I see it the only way to preserve our position in the EU on our existing terms is for Parliament to vote against invoking Article 50 and in effect ignore the result of the referendum. Legally that's within their power to do but unless some new facts emerge to justify that course of action it would leave a lot of MP's with some serious explaining to do to their electorate.....
craigjm said:
don4l said:
we should be discussing which EU regulations we will drop.
WEEE would be a good place to start. It achhieves absolutely nothing, and it places a cost on industry.
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
In terms of net cost though all of that is chicken feed. The big net costs to the UK economy come from the climate targets, the rules set around bank capital and the rules on payments across the EU. Those three alone contribute £45bn net cost to the UK economy.WEEE would be a good place to start. It achhieves absolutely nothing, and it places a cost on industry.
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
I'm not aware of the effects of the bank capital requirements. I'm also not aware of any rules about payments across the EU. It doesn't really cost me any more to pay a French supplier than it does to pay a British supplier.
FiF said:
Labour Party Conference 'decision'
"[Conference] recognises that many of those who voted to leave the EU were expressing dissatisfaction with EU or national policy and were voting for change, but believes that unless the final settlement proves to be acceptable then the option of retaining EU membership should be retained. The final settlement should therefore be subject to approval, through parliament and potentially through a general election, or a referendum."
Predictions are that Corbyn won't take this anywhere, but where does that put Labour on that graph?
Dunno, but they had to say that, I suppose, to stop a potential exodus to the LibDems."[Conference] recognises that many of those who voted to leave the EU were expressing dissatisfaction with EU or national policy and were voting for change, but believes that unless the final settlement proves to be acceptable then the option of retaining EU membership should be retained. The final settlement should therefore be subject to approval, through parliament and potentially through a general election, or a referendum."
Predictions are that Corbyn won't take this anywhere, but where does that put Labour on that graph?
At least I've got two parties I might vote for in 2020 now. Greens maybe a third.
PurpleMoonlight said:
don4l said:
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
I don't have 4 or 5 bins. Am I being cheated by my council against EU law?Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
In what way is the light from my bulbs improper?
No we should have more wind power obliterating the horizon and new cheap nuclear power provided by the french and financed by the chinese.
I used to have one, which I kept by the back door. Every week a man came up the drive and took it to the lorry and emptied it. Now I have three wheelie bins and a smelly food bin. My local council has several lorries where they used to have one.
When these lorries get back to the council, they combine all the waste and send it to landfill.
I preferred incandescent light bulbs to the current stuff.
Problem is, whatever deal we end up with will be unsatisfactory to a great many.
Obviously leaving (in whatever form) will upset the people who wanted to remain and any leave deal will ultimately have some degree of compromise so won't be right for a good proportion of the leave voters (too 'soft', too 'hard' etc.).
The best we'll end up with, IMO is a deal that if it were put to the vote wouldn't achieve anywhere near 50% approval.
Personally I can live with whatever the outcome but even pleasing some of the people some of the time is going to be difficult - I wouldn't want to be in May's shoes...
Obviously leaving (in whatever form) will upset the people who wanted to remain and any leave deal will ultimately have some degree of compromise so won't be right for a good proportion of the leave voters (too 'soft', too 'hard' etc.).
The best we'll end up with, IMO is a deal that if it were put to the vote wouldn't achieve anywhere near 50% approval.
Personally I can live with whatever the outcome but even pleasing some of the people some of the time is going to be difficult - I wouldn't want to be in May's shoes...
Mrr T said:
craigjm said:
don4l said:
we should be discussing which EU regulations we will drop.
WEEE would be a good place to start. It achhieves absolutely nothing, and it places a cost on industry.
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
In terms of net cost though all of that is chicken feed. The big net costs to the UK economy come from the climate targets, the rules set around bank capital and the rules on payments across the EU. Those three alone contribute £45bn net cost to the UK economy.WEEE would be a good place to start. It achhieves absolutely nothing, and it places a cost on industry.
Other directives are more open to discussion. The Waste directives are an example. Do we really need 4 or 5 dustbins for every house?
Should we be able to buy proper light bulbs?
Should we be plastering the countryside with solar panels which only produce expensive electricity when it isn't needed?
Murph7355 said:
don4l said:
...
I have to admit that I thought that 5 years down the road we would still have people saying "but, but it would have been even better".
...
We still will.I have to admit that I thought that 5 years down the road we would still have people saying "but, but it would have been even better".
...
A good number will still be posting here.
And add a zero to your timeline
don4l said:
Mrr T said:
The bank capital rules are set by the BIS and only implemented in the EU by the EU. So no change if we are in or out.
Most EU directives are implemented through the British government. So the Dept for BIS are just implementing the will of the EU.catso said:
Problem is, whatever deal we end up with will be unsatisfactory to a great many.
Obviously leaving (in whatever form) will upset the people who wanted to remain and any leave deal will ultimately have some degree of compromise so won't be right for a good proportion of the leave voters (too 'soft', too 'hard' etc.).
The best we'll end up with, IMO is a deal that if it were put to the vote wouldn't achieve anywhere near 50% approval.
Personally I can live with whatever the outcome but even pleasing some of the people some of the time is going to be difficult - I wouldn't want to be in May's shoes...
You could not afford May's shoes.Obviously leaving (in whatever form) will upset the people who wanted to remain and any leave deal will ultimately have some degree of compromise so won't be right for a good proportion of the leave voters (too 'soft', too 'hard' etc.).
The best we'll end up with, IMO is a deal that if it were put to the vote wouldn't achieve anywhere near 50% approval.
Personally I can live with whatever the outcome but even pleasing some of the people some of the time is going to be difficult - I wouldn't want to be in May's shoes...
I'm more or less with you. I was against leaving but if it is a reality then I want a good deal. To May though, the approval of the 'people' from that point of view is immaterial. It is whether it is supported by the party and possibly the HoC. She'll want to keep her job.
May won't be concerned with what the voter wants. We've had our say. I reckon she'll say she did what the referendum told her to do, exit - in whatever form that takes. She will try and spin herself as blameless. She has to satisfy her paymasters and supporters. Those who contribute to the party, the CBI, big business, the media, will be putting their requirements to her now. She has little freedom of movement but whatever is decided will be brexit so she's in the clear.
Maybe.
She will blame the negotiating team for the outcome. She might even dismiss them during the negotiations. She'll have some devilish plan. If she can suggest that cutting the police force by nearly 30% can put more bobbies on the beat then she has no fear that whatever the result she'll herald it as a victory against the obstructive Germans/French/Italians/Scottish.
She's probably got her speech writers on the job already.
SilverSixer said:
Dunno, but they had to say that, I suppose, to stop a potential exodus to the LibDems.
At least I've got two parties I might vote for in 2020 now. Greens maybe a third.
Be careful, neither the LibDems or Labour have got a very good record on actually having referendums promised on manifestos when they actually get into power....At least I've got two parties I might vote for in 2020 now. Greens maybe a third.
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