Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result

Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result

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don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
Sounds far more hard than soft, Fox is obviously popping Viagra like he's got a headache laugh

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37504966

Given the rheotoric being spouted by our soon to be former partners in Europe, going hard seems to be the only road to go down.

SilverSixer

8,202 posts

150 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
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London424 said:
Right, but they haven't lost anything in relation to A50.
The whole case is in relation to A50, and they have failed with the first stunt they have tried to pull. Not an auspicious start.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
jsf said:
No Derek, I hope to learn something from people with opposing views to my own and I hope to read posts that bring something new to the debate. All I have seen from you recently has been moaning.

Anyone who wishes to see someone fail because of their perceived view on how that person attacked their former employer, with that meaning the General population will suffer as a result, has zero credibility when suggesting they care about the service that population receives.

So yes, it is a weakness in your character to relish the destruction of another, what tends to happen with that approach is you end up destroying yourself whilst you obsess on your perceived enemy, whilst they are just getting on with life and doing their job.
If you want to learn something new then you should not bother about ad hominem attacks. They bring nothing to the conversation. You suggest, in your avoidance of my points, that all I do is moan. I don't think that is correct.

I'm very positive about May's situation. I'm not her 'destruction', I merely look forward to what I see as karma. She'll lose her promotion, but not her job, through her inability to cope with what it a mass of different expectations. If you use an attack on the conditions and pay of a group of people for your own selfish needs then you losing yours is unlikely to gain my sympathy.

You seem amazed that I should be concerned about the institution that was my career, or as you dismiss it as, my 'former employer'. Does it surprise you that just because I was an employee I care about it?

Don't concern yourself about my self destruction. I am far from obsessed, at least about May or any other politician.

So I'm happy for you to disagree with my conclusions. It might be better for the thread if you give your reasons.

If I may offer advice: lighten up a bit. This thread should be fun. It is not important. It is guff, a bit of jawing. My posts, and yours, are not something to get excited about.


anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
SilverSixer said:
London424 said:
Right, but they haven't lost anything in relation to A50.
The whole case is in relation to A50, and they have failed with the first stunt they have tried to pull. Not an auspicious start.
Having just read both documents, I will be very surprised if the government lose the case based on how the Crown prerogative is used as a matter of course when dealing with any treaty matters. The treaty to join the EEC was signed using Crown prerogative as were the following treaties such as Lisbon, Parliament only got involved at a latter stage when legislation was required to ratify what is in the treaties.

The whole case is basically an argument that the government has no right to use the Crown prerogative, which is clearly nonsense. The case in no way asks for the referendum result not to be respected or acted upon, its purely an argument over who issues the order to trigger article 50, the Crown or Parliament.

If they want an argument about the British constitution, which is all this boils down to, I'm not sure this is the correct fight to achieve that. Some nice £ being earned by the lawyers though.

AC43

11,435 posts

207 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
Stickyfinger said:
AC43 said:
Thankyou for your support.

(although I guess from the tone of your post that you perhaps haven't noticed the massive division in the Tory party over the last 30 years over Europe and the huge repercussions that's it's had)
Which is in fact a split in the WHOLE COUNTRY, which thus shows the discussion is/was needed, as was the referendum.
The question has now been answered and the PM/government will now act on the result to complete the process.

TM will do this/thinks that is all bks, she is playing the cards and holding them close, this is the clever thing to do at this stage.....wait and see and then at the next GE you can vote on the politicians performance. (Which you cannot do to any effect whilst within the EU)
I side more with Ken Clarke's analysis; whether or not she knows what she's doing the radio silence means a lack of direction and lack of direction is encouraging people to become more and more entrenched which is NOT a good thing.

People like me who were originally worried about the economic consequences of all of this are now far more worried.

Meanwhile the "Three Brexiteers" are taking the lack of immediate financial disaster as some sort of ultimate vindication and whipping their supporters up into a frenzy of one-eyed nationalist jingoism not seen since Farage was last seen holding court in a pub with a pint in one hand and fag in the other.

May is doing feck all to control any of this.

http://news.sky.com/story/ken-clarke-says-theresa-...

don'tbesilly

13,900 posts

162 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
AC43 said:
Stickyfinger said:
AC43 said:
Thankyou for your support.

(although I guess from the tone of your post that you perhaps haven't noticed the massive division in the Tory party over the last 30 years over Europe and the huge repercussions that's it's had)
Which is in fact a split in the WHOLE COUNTRY, which thus shows the discussion is/was needed, as was the referendum.
The question has now been answered and the PM/government will now act on the result to complete the process.

TM will do this/thinks that is all bks, she is playing the cards and holding them close, this is the clever thing to do at this stage.....wait and see and then at the next GE you can vote on the politicians performance. (Which you cannot do to any effect whilst within the EU)
I side more with Ken Clarke's analysis; whether or not she knows what she's doing the radio silence means a lack of direction and lack of direction is encouraging people to become more and more entrenched which is NOT a good thing.

People like me who were originally worried about the economic consequences of all of this are now far more worried.

Meanwhile the "Three Brexiteers" are taking the lack of immediate financial disaster as some sort of ultimate vindication and whipping their supporters up into a frenzy of one-eyed nationalist jingoism not seen since Farage was last seen holding court in a pub with a pint in one hand and fag in the other.

May is doing feck all to control any of this.

http://news.sky.com/story/ken-clarke-says-theresa-...
You're allegiance to Ken Clarke's analysis is not surprising given his love for the EU, his stance has been the same for years, and the comment in the article you linked to is a big enough clue.


'And the pro-EU MP revealed he would vote against Brexit in the House of Commons, branding the referendum an "opinion poll" and David Cameron's decision to hold the vote "catastrophic".'

Ken knows as much about the EU as he does fine wine, both consume him,one with passion and one that leaves him incoherent, and legless.

Ken reminds me of Rowley Birkin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18JmieM8SFc

AC43

11,435 posts

207 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
don'tbesilly said:
You're allegiance to Ken Clarke's analysis is not surprising given his love for the EU.
I wouldn't say I have an "allegiance" to Ken Clark i just spotted the news article and thought it was relevant. Neither would I say he has a "love" of the EU.

His view seems to be that, imperfect as it may be, the EU represents a good vehicle for a very important part of our commerce and that rolling back the relationship is more than likely going to damage that.

BTW I've never once said that "I love the EU". I like certain aspects of it and don't like others. But I don't dislike those parts enough to risk the trade because trade = profits and profits = tax we can spend in the UK.

EDIT; and by the way I though the "opinion poll" comment was amusing and true in that none of this is subject to debate in the HOC or HOL.

If you think about it the proccces was more like voting in The Voice or the X Factor than the normal way a country would debate and decide upon monumental constitutional change.





Edited by AC43 on Thursday 29th September 15:55

Stickyfinger

8,429 posts

104 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
AC43 said:
don'tbesilly said:
You're allegiance to Ken Clarke's analysis is not surprising given his love for the EU.
I wouldn't say I have an "allegiance" to Ken Clark i just spotted the news article and thought it was relevant. Neither would I say he has a "love" of the EU.

His view seems to be that, imperfect as it may be, the EU represents a good vehicle for a very important part of our commerce and that rolling back the relationship is more than likely going to damage that.

BTW I've never once said that "I love the EU". I like certain aspects of it and don't like others. But I don't dislike those parts enough to risk the trade because trade = profits and profits = tax we can spend in the UK.
You just did, you admitted that money is more important than your independence from a monolithic Trotsky type bureaucracy.

So, how much money would it take to have your arse on a plate ?

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
It's good to see politicians and the media squaring up to the fact that a "Hard Brexit", or "Clean Break" is in Britain's best interest.

In fact, it's beginning to look like they are going to follow my two step exit plan.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
jsf said:
Having just read both documents, I will be very surprised if the government lose the case based on how the Crown prerogative is used as a matter of course when dealing with any treaty matters. The treaty to join the EEC was signed using Crown prerogative as were the following treaties such as Lisbon, Parliament only got involved at a latter stage when legislation was required to ratify what is in the treaties.

The whole case is basically an argument that the government has no right to use the Crown prerogative, which is clearly nonsense. The case in no way asks for the referendum result not to be respected or acted upon, its purely an argument over who issues the order to trigger article 50, the Crown or Parliament.

If they want an argument about the British constitution, which is all this boils down to, I'm not sure this is the correct fight to achieve that. Some nice £ being earned by the lawyers though.
The case is about whether the Govt can use the prerogative to do something that in substance amounts to a repeal of an Act of Parliament (the 1973 Act); something that conventional wisdom says only Parliament can do. On one view it is quite surprising to suggest that the Govt could use the prerogative to repeal legislation, as that would provide it with an incredibly broad executive power, far outstripping the Commons.

If successful it puts triggering A50 into the hands of the HoC, which will have to have regard to what is legally an advisory referendum.

AIUI it is pretty much uncharted territory.


PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
don4l said:
It's good to see politicians and the media squaring up to the fact that a "Hard Brexit", or "Clean Break" is in Britain's best interest.

In fact, it's beginning to look like they are going to follow my two step exit plan.
It isn't and they aren't.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
don4l said:
It's good to see politicians and the media squaring up to the fact that a "Hard Brexit", or "Clean Break" is in Britain's best interest.

In fact, it's beginning to look like they are going to follow my two step exit plan.
It isn't and they aren't.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/29/liam-fox-looks-to-wto-in-hint-at-hard-brexit-stance?client=safari


don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
don4l said:
It's good to see politicians and the media squaring up to the fact that a "Hard Brexit", or "Clean Break" is in Britain's best interest.

In fact, it's beginning to look like they are going to follow my two step exit plan.
It isn't and they aren't.
I'm afraid that it is. It's all over the media today. In fact, Eddie Mair was talking about it yesterday.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3813504/Br...

Question Time will be interesting tonight. The audience will, no doubt, be packed with panicing Remainers.


SilverSixer

8,202 posts

150 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
don4l said:
Question Time will be interesting tonight. The audience will, no doubt, be packed with panicing Remainers.
I love comments like this. Despite winning the referendum, which entailed the connivance of a large part of the nation's media in the scam, the Leave lobby STILL think there's a media conspiracy against them.

Keep 'em coming, it's comedy gold.

AC43

11,435 posts

207 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
Stickyfinger said:
AC43 said:
don'tbesilly said:
You're allegiance to Ken Clarke's analysis is not surprising given his love for the EU.
I wouldn't say I have an "allegiance" to Ken Clark i just spotted the news article and thought it was relevant. Neither would I say he has a "love" of the EU.

His view seems to be that, imperfect as it may be, the EU represents a good vehicle for a very important part of our commerce and that rolling back the relationship is more than likely going to damage that.

BTW I've never once said that "I love the EU". I like certain aspects of it and don't like others. But I don't dislike those parts enough to risk the trade because trade = profits and profits = tax we can spend in the UK.
You just did, you admitted that money is more important than your independence from a monolithic Trotsky type bureaucracy.

So, how much money would it take to have your arse on a plate ?
What did I admit? That all governments require a tax base from which to finance the state? I thought that was just a given.

My arse on a plate? Sorry? I'm not following.

Monolithic Trotsky type bureacracy? As you talking about the one that's about the same size a Derby County Council?

I'm just musing on the best way to preserve our current tax and spend plans. I didn't say I like all aspects of the current arrangements but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.




CaptainSlow

13,179 posts

211 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
SilverSixer said:
I love comments like this. Despite winning the referendum, which entailed the connivance of a large part of the nation's media in the scam, the Leave lobby STILL think there's a media conspiracy against them.

Keep 'em coming, it's comedy gold.
Not all the media, not even most the media, just the BBC.

SilverSixer

8,202 posts

150 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
AC43 said:
Meanwhile the "Three Brexiteers" are taking the lack of immediate financial disaster as some sort of ultimate vindication and whipping their supporters up into a frenzy of one-eyed nationalist jingoism not seen since Farage was last seen holding court in a pub with a pint in one hand and fag in the other.
Fox is saying today that we're going to get trade with the EU which is freer than the free trade we already have. Freer. more free than 'free' ever was. WTF? We're going to need a new word, and redefine the old one if 'free' no longer covers the concept of being as free as something can be. Zxfrft, maybe. I think I've head Boris Johnson use that one so at least he'll understand it.

Has nobody thought of having Fox sectioned?

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
SilverSixer said:
AC43 said:
Meanwhile the "Three Brexiteers" are taking the lack of immediate financial disaster as some sort of ultimate vindication and whipping their supporters up into a frenzy of one-eyed nationalist jingoism not seen since Farage was last seen holding court in a pub with a pint in one hand and fag in the other.
Fox is saying today that we're going to get trade with the EU which is freer than the free trade we already have. Freer. more free than 'free' ever was. WTF? We're going to need a new word, and redefine the old one if 'free' no longer covers the concept of being as free as something can be. Zxfrft, maybe. I think I've head Boris Johnson use that one so at least he'll understand it.

Has nobody thought of having Fox sectioned?
Yes, I found this all rather odd too. Fox is doing his best to paint himself as being some distance from reality.


don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
SilverSixer said:
don4l said:
Question Time will be interesting tonight. The audience will, no doubt, be packed with panicing Remainers.
I love comments like this. Despite winning the referendum, which entailed the connivance of a large part of the nation's media in the scam, the Leave lobby STILL think there's a media conspiracy against them.

Keep 'em coming, it's comedy gold.
It is well documented that the BBC has a left wing bias. Former employees have admitted as much.

Here is a classic example from yesterday's "Mid Week" programme.

http://biasedbbc.org/blog/2016/09/28/mid-week-open...

I can fish out hundreds of similar examples if you like.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Thursday 29th September 2016
quotequote all
Greg66 said:
Yes, I found this all rather odd too. Fox is doing his best to paint himself as being some distance from reality.
And the staunch leavers are lapping it up.





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