Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result
Discussion
London424 said:
Mario149 said:
Blue62 said:
....what is democratic about being sold a bunch of lies on immigration, NHS funding and the economic consequences, with no coherent exit plan....
Exactly. It's verging on criminal. We get so het up about MPs spending public money on their duck ponds or whatever and prosecute them for that, but apparently outright lying to the electorate to effect permanent "democratic" change for 65M people is par for the course and the electorate should just suck it up and carry on regardless.Edited by Mario149 on Friday 1st July 13:27
- Devils advocate mode on
As for the apparent Brexit lies, Gove seems to be more or less stick to his guns, something that Johnson obviously wasn't prepared to do. He seems to be touting dosh for the NHS, limited movement of labour, and surely by extension, no single market?
Efbe said:
jjlynn27 said:
covmutley said:
Agree no 2nd referendum. But They are already saying what the deal Has to include. They didn't say that before the vote.they will easily shift the Sands.
Cameron didn't get a good deal. The vote gives us leverage to get a good deal. No party will win an election on the promise of a huge recession.
I don't understand this 'the vote gives us leverage to get a good deal'. It doesn't. [b]Nobody is offering any deals or any talks at present.[b] By the way, the concessions that Cameron did get, for whatever they were worth, are now void. I don't think there is an appetite in EU for any renegotiation. The efforts should be made to see what are the options to get something like Norway deal, but even that will require a lot of work with no guarantees. The whole premise of having uper hand in these negotiations is false imo.Cameron didn't get a good deal. The vote gives us leverage to get a good deal. No party will win an election on the promise of a huge recession.
Sarkosy is talking about reducing free movement to 'core' countries.
Laj?ák is saying he will 'support any measure that will help reverse the position of the British people'
This is before we have a PM to talk to as well.
All of the protagonists of the piece so far are being removed and the one viewed as being a "moderate" is being offered an olive branch before we have even make an approach.
"Well, it is a Friday.............
Mays challengers will drop by the way side over the next week or so "in the national interest".
May will go and have a brew and a chat with the moderate chap at the EU who is in place for the next 6 months, positions will be seen to soften on both sides giving soothing noises to the market.
The impartial BBC will ramp up a hearts and minds campaign with programmes showing the plight of fleeing refugees and we will be so EU'd up by xmas that we will be putting fairies on top of the Scandinavian trees waving an EU flag.
"Productive" and "constructive" talks will carry on until xmas with a compromise being reached in some form and a proposal that "we may as well remain for now" back to parliament early 2017.
The proposal won't need a referendum as "the majority of leavers only voted leave because they saw nothing but a stonewall from the EU at the time of the referendum.
This position has clearly changed so the majority of leavers would now vote "remain". Majority vote succeeds in parliament because the majority of MPs want to stay in and Article 50 will be in the background, initially as an idle threat to be re-introduced if the UK deem the EU are being naughty again (which will satisfy some of the slighty less hardcore leavers) and the EU know its an empty threat that will get quietly forgotten about / legislated out in a few years time.
Junker and Co will be told to wind their necks in "because £UK" and all will be well in the world until Scotland start wriggling again "because Scotland".
The hardcore leavers that are seen to have made the difference in the referendum will kick off initially but will disappear off to vote UKIP (if they can be bothered) that wont exist because the Tories and the EU have now made them a laughing stock as well as diminishing the impact of other Eurosceptic parties in time for the French and German elections.
Simples."
Blue62 said:
I am with you Mario, Europe is far too key to leave to a referendum and the politicians now know it. People talk about democracy, but what is democratic about being sold a bunch of lies on immigration, NHS funding and the economic consequences, with no coherent exit plan? People were misled, I have met plenty of people who voted leave and now regret it but I have yet to meet a single remainer who regrets their decision.
Thankfully the people I have met in the past two weeks have kept their politics between them and the ballot box.London424 said:
- Devils advocate mode on
I genuinely believe that in great scheme of things, £350m a week, is well worth paying as a membership fee to access to a market. Rather than amount being relevant, it was presented as giving money for nothing.
I believe that access to single market is crucial for UK, and to get that I don't think that will be able to get it for lot less. Same applies for free movement of labour. When all said and done, best outcome that I hope for now, is along EFTA lines. How much of that is achievable remains to be seen.
XJ40 said:
Well rightly or wrongly I was assuming that a lot of the doom-monger stuff was said based on the assumption that "A50" would be activated by the PM straight after the vote? Cameron, rightly in my view, has kicked the can down the road and bided some time.
Well, some has been kicked down the road. The market uncertainty was always certain. The short term is probably pretty accurate *if* things stay as they are in the Eurozone (which isn't a given) and we only manage to get one of the options that's "on the plate" now so to speak. The question really is on the long term. The 2030 forecasts where we'll each be £4300 worse off are nothing more than guesses on the worst case though. XJ40 said:
As for the apparent Brexit lies, Gove seems to be more or less stick to his guns, something that Johnson obviously wasn't prepared to do. He seems to be touting dosh for the NHS, limited movement of labour, and surely by extension, no single market?
Who knows. All depends on how pragmatic the EU is prepared to be, the decision should have sunk in by then, hopefully Farage will have stepped under a bus (or just go back to not attending Parliament and pissing them off), Scotland will realise they are pissing up a rope and that being on the side of the UK is in their best interests (even if they then split off afterwards). There are a bunch of elections coming up and the newcomers might be rather more amenable. I just hope that Junckers falls on his sword as he should do as he hates us. All this talk of no exit strategy.....
When we have a EU stating that we can't talk terms until we've gone, that's not right clever! Fair enough, pour decourager les autres and all that, but being pragmatic about it any delay to talks about terms is a stick that's sharp at both ends. Instead of making things hard for us, and then for themselves anyway, to discourage further rebellion, why not think along lines of encouraging members to remain by making the prospect of staying better, not by making the prospect of leaving scarier. f
king idiots. I do not want to be a part of an organisation with that mindset.
When we have a EU stating that we can't talk terms until we've gone, that's not right clever! Fair enough, pour decourager les autres and all that, but being pragmatic about it any delay to talks about terms is a stick that's sharp at both ends. Instead of making things hard for us, and then for themselves anyway, to discourage further rebellion, why not think along lines of encouraging members to remain by making the prospect of staying better, not by making the prospect of leaving scarier. f
king idiots. I do not want to be a part of an organisation with that mindset.sidicks said:
LordHaveMurci said:
I've only spoken to one person in the last week that would vote out again, all the other BREXITers now wished they'd voted to remain.
That's conclusive then...anonymous said:
[redacted]
Try going to your boss, telling him you are going to leave and want to negotiate your exit package, but just in case you change your mind you aren't actually going to hand in your letter of resignation, because the company clearly needs you more than you need them.Let me know how far you get with that approach.
It is nothing to do with discouraging others, it is to do with the fact we have a legal obligation to hand in our notice if we want to talk terms, and we are not bothering to do that.
LordHaveMurci said:
sidicks said:
LordHaveMurci said:
I've only spoken to one person in the last week that would vote out again, all the other BREXITers now wished they'd voted to remain.
That's conclusive then...mattmurdock said:
Try going to your boss, telling him you are going to leave and want to negotiate your exit package, but just in case you change your mind you aren't actually going to hand in your letter of resignation, because the company clearly needs you more than you need them.
Let me know how far you get with that approach.
It is nothing to do with discouraging others, it is to do with the fact we have a legal obligation to hand in our notice if we want to talk terms, and we are not bothering to do that.
Yep, right now we are in the in between stage from when we've verbally notified our boss we're leaving but not yet dropped the letter on his desk. That said of course that akin to that situation there is nothing to stop your boss making a counter offer before you leave. I know that prize tit Junckers has said no more renegotiation but I'm also certain that 80% of people would be happy to stay if we got the ability to set immigration limits or only free movement from within the Eurozone and controlled from outside. Would also have to be with serious investment at home but that would be probably the best solution to "staying in".Let me know how far you get with that approach.
It is nothing to do with discouraging others, it is to do with the fact we have a legal obligation to hand in our notice if we want to talk terms, and we are not bothering to do that.
sidicks said:
LordHaveMurci said:
sidicks said:
LordHaveMurci said:
I've only spoken to one person in the last week that would vote out again, all the other BREXITers now wished they'd voted to remain.
That's conclusive then...Anyway, thread derailment not really required so ahm oot.
LordHaveMurci said:
I was agreeing with the poster who I quoted but you chose to stick your oar in without including the context of my post, no idea why but I'm sure you have your reasons.
Anyway, thread derailment not really required so ahm oot.
The previous poster was also making exactly the same whinge:Anyway, thread derailment not really required so ahm oot.
'It's not fair.."
"People were mis-led"
"I know loads of people who voted out and they want to change their minds"
Etc
Etc
Like a stuck record.
sidicks said:
Mario149 said:
It's exactly democracy IMO, we can and do do it with GEs which happen every 5 years. Otherwise we'd have one general election and just leave it at that forever. And anyway, with GEs we can essentially have one any time we want providing enough MPs think it's the right thing to do. We could have a GE in 6 months time, then another a few months later if there was appetite for it because the prev gov had made a chronically bad decision.
This whole "we can't have another referendum or let MPs decide freely because it's undemocratic" really is a nonsense, especially when we're about to string ourselves up on the basis of a glorified opinion poll unleashed due to feuding in one of our parties. We elect MPs to make decisions for us and in our best interests, and if we don't llike th eanswer, that's tough. Our say comes when we get to vote them in or out.
If MPs are given an un-whipped vote and told to do what's right for their constituents, not what makes them popular, and they think that kicking our economy in the balls for the foreseeable is a price worth paying for some token sovereignty and no meaningful change to immigration, then so be it. But I'm pretty sure they're smarter than that.
You seem to know an awful lot about something that's barely been discussed, yet alone agreed.This whole "we can't have another referendum or let MPs decide freely because it's undemocratic" really is a nonsense, especially when we're about to string ourselves up on the basis of a glorified opinion poll unleashed due to feuding in one of our parties. We elect MPs to make decisions for us and in our best interests, and if we don't llike th eanswer, that's tough. Our say comes when we get to vote them in or out.
If MPs are given an un-whipped vote and told to do what's right for their constituents, not what makes them popular, and they think that kicking our economy in the balls for the foreseeable is a price worth paying for some token sovereignty and no meaningful change to immigration, then so be it. But I'm pretty sure they're smarter than that.
Now I'm more than happy to admit that it's not a dead cert any of this is going to happen, but this constant Brexit camp implication (or sometimes directly stated) that "the experts are wrong" and "selective belief" thing is starting to get tiresome.
The only good news in this is that if I'm wrong, everything is fine and our gamble has paid off, I can eat some humble pie but at least lots of people still have jobs. But if Brexiteers are wrong, we've f*cked our country over, possibly others if the infection spreads, based almost exclusively on a pack of lies and deliberate omissions.
London424 said:
Mario149 said:
Blue62 said:
....what is democratic about being sold a bunch of lies on immigration, NHS funding and the economic consequences, with no coherent exit plan....
Exactly. It's verging on criminal. We get so het up about MPs spending public money on their duck ponds or whatever and prosecute them for that, but apparently outright lying to the electorate to effect permanent "democratic" change for 65M people is par for the course and the electorate should just suck it up and carry on regardless.Edited by Mario149 on Friday 1st July 13:27
- Devils advocate mode on
Mario149 said:
The only good news in this is that if I'm wrong, everything is fine and our gamble has paid off, I can eat some humble pie but at least lots of people still have jobs. But if Brexiteers are wrong, we've f*cked our country over, possibly others if the infection spreads, based almost exclusively on a pack of lies and deliberate omissions.
This.Mario149 said:
The chancellor expects the economy is going to take a hit, so does the governor of the bank of England, amongst many others who know what they're talking about. We know what sovereignty we'll get back if we leave, and it's not going to make a jot of difference to the average man in the street, in the near term, if ever. We know we're going to have "uncontrolled" immigration for 2.5 years still at least, longer if we have to stay in the single market, which incidentally, our financial services appear to be borked without. Apparently it's okay to take Theresa May and our current gov at their word that we're def exiting, but it's *not* okay to believe foreign leaders/politicians who say you can't have Europe a la carte. God give me strength!
Now I'm more than happy to admit that it's not a dead cert any of this is going to happen, but this constant Brexit camp implication (or sometimes directly stated) that "the experts are wrong" and "selective belief" thing is starting to get tiresome.
All this stuff 'you know', then all of a sudden none of it is certain...Now I'm more than happy to admit that it's not a dead cert any of this is going to happen, but this constant Brexit camp implication (or sometimes directly stated) that "the experts are wrong" and "selective belief" thing is starting to get tiresome.
Not sure anyone is saying your (carefully cherry-picked) experts are wrong, just that there is massive uncertainty, until the terms of the exit are clear.
Mario149 said:
The only good news in this is that if I'm wrong, everything is fine and our gamble has paid off, I can eat some humble pie but at least lots of people still have jobs. But if Brexiteers are wrong, we've f*cked our country over, possibly others if the infection spreads, based almost exclusively on a pack of lies and deliberate omissions.
onemorelap said:
Efbe said:
jjlynn27 said:
covmutley said:
Agree no 2nd referendum. But They are already saying what the deal Has to include. They didn't say that before the vote.they will easily shift the Sands.
Cameron didn't get a good deal. The vote gives us leverage to get a good deal. No party will win an election on the promise of a huge recession.
I don't understand this 'the vote gives us leverage to get a good deal'. It doesn't. [b]Nobody is offering any deals or any talks at present.[b] By the way, the concessions that Cameron did get, for whatever they were worth, are now void. I don't think there is an appetite in EU for any renegotiation. The efforts should be made to see what are the options to get something like Norway deal, but even that will require a lot of work with no guarantees. The whole premise of having uper hand in these negotiations is false imo.Cameron didn't get a good deal. The vote gives us leverage to get a good deal. No party will win an election on the promise of a huge recession.
Sarkosy is talking about reducing free movement to 'core' countries.
Laj?ák is saying he will 'support any measure that will help reverse the position of the British people'
This is before we have a PM to talk to as well.
All of the protagonists of the piece so far are being removed and the one viewed as being a "moderate" is being offered an olive branch before we have even make an approach.
"Well, it is a Friday.............
Mays challengers will drop by the way side over the next week or so "in the national interest".
May will go and have a brew and a chat with the moderate chap at the EU who is in place for the next 6 months, positions will be seen to soften on both sides giving soothing noises to the market.
The impartial BBC will ramp up a hearts and minds campaign with programmes showing the plight of fleeing refugees and we will be so EU'd up by xmas that we will be putting fairies on top of the Scandinavian trees waving an EU flag.
"Productive" and "constructive" talks will carry on until xmas with a compromise being reached in some form and a proposal that "we may as well remain for now" back to parliament early 2017.
The proposal won't need a referendum as "the majority of leavers only voted leave because they saw nothing but a stonewall from the EU at the time of the referendum.
This position has clearly changed so the majority of leavers would now vote "remain". Majority vote succeeds in parliament because the majority of MPs want to stay in and Article 50 will be in the background, initially as an idle threat to be re-introduced if the UK deem the EU are being naughty again (which will satisfy some of the slighty less hardcore leavers) and the EU know its an empty threat that will get quietly forgotten about / legislated out in a few years time.
Junker and Co will be told to wind their necks in "because £UK" and all will be well in the world until Scotland start wriggling again "because Scotland".
The hardcore leavers that are seen to have made the difference in the referendum will kick off initially but will disappear off to vote UKIP (if they can be bothered) that wont exist because the Tories and the EU have now made them a laughing stock as well as diminishing the impact of other Eurosceptic parties in time for the French and German elections.
Simples."
In different words in another thread I have made exactly the same prediction.
I don't really see how it can go any differently to this.
mattmurdock said:
Try going to your boss, telling him you are going to leave and want to negotiate your exit package, but just in case you change your mind you aren't actually going to hand in your letter of resignation, because the company clearly needs you more than you need them.
Let me know how far you get with that approach.
It is nothing to do with discouraging others, it is to do with the fact we have a legal obligation to hand in our notice if we want to talk terms, and we are not bothering to do that.
I think that's the wrong way of looking at that analogy. Previously you've been going to see your boss and threatening to go elsewhere if he doesn't give you a pay rise. Now (following the vote) you can go see your boss, ask for a pay rise whilst presenting him with a job offer from a competitor. My example does however assume (like a few recent threads) that we aren't actually stupid enough to leave the EU, but can use this situation to negotiate a better deal and carry it through a GE.Let me know how far you get with that approach.
It is nothing to do with discouraging others, it is to do with the fact we have a legal obligation to hand in our notice if we want to talk terms, and we are not bothering to do that.
It is clearly in the 'EU' interest to present an outward position of no negotiation etc pre A.50 (to dampen the proletariat elsewhere in Europe). Likewise it is absolutely in the 'EU's interest to protect itself (both as an institution and as individuals in that institution). Hence all of the sabre rattling/white noise that's out there at the moment.
Back in the real world, there will absolutely be conversations going on in the background right now and not just between the UK and Germany/France. The US and China will be there as well (do you really think that the US is saying 'crack on lads, just let us know when you're done, in the meantime I'm happy to risk our and the global economy going tits up'?!). This is where the deals will be done. The 'EU' will be told what to do once it's been agreed. The noise will then be about the detail.
Fastdruid said:
mattmurdock said:
Try going to your boss, telling him you are going to leave and want to negotiate your exit package, but just in case you change your mind you aren't actually going to hand in your letter of resignation, because the company clearly needs you more than you need them.
Let me know how far you get with that approach.
It is nothing to do with discouraging others, it is to do with the fact we have a legal obligation to hand in our notice if we want to talk terms, and we are not bothering to do that.
Yep, right now we are in the in between stage from when we've verbally notified our boss we're leaving but not yet dropped the letter on his desk. That said of course that akin to that situation there is nothing to stop your boss making a counter offer before you leave. I know that prize tit Junckers has said no more renegotiation but I'm also certain that 80% of people would be happy to stay if we got the ability to set immigration limits or only free movement from within the Eurozone and controlled from outside. Would also have to be with serious investment at home but that would be probably the best solution to "staying in".Let me know how far you get with that approach.
It is nothing to do with discouraging others, it is to do with the fact we have a legal obligation to hand in our notice if we want to talk terms, and we are not bothering to do that.
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