Re-united Ireland?
Discussion
This was a protest vote that I suspect many of those voting did not think would ever actually go the way it did. You stupid tossers. Did Boris or Farage expect this? No. Are they prepared for it? No.
It is clear to anybody with experience of both that there is exponentially more wealth and economic activity in England than there is in Scotland, and Scotland is a country with huge social expectations but no way of paying the bill. It's interest in being an EU member is based on the belief that they will receive the handouts they need to balance their budget. It is not imho viable as an independent country. Another referendum? I doubt it. They need to know whether the EU even want them as a member. There is a limit to how many small countries the Germans can fund or want to fund. It would be sensible to know what terms the UK are going to receive and how that goes. The SNP are not on the roll they were on. People are Referendummed out. There is a very real sense that we had that issue and we settled it and we don't want it again so soon. But it could happen and on the right day with the right conditions the SNP might win it. The prospect of how things might go then is frankly scary. One thing is for sure - I won't be staying.
Northern Ireland is a footnote here and a historical anachronism. Their desire to remain part of the UK is very simply an economic one. If the economics change they will join the Republic. Either way it is now an issue for democratic decision and I pray will remain that way.
I voted Remain. My first reaction when I saw how things were going in the early hours of Friday was to think, this is a f
king disaster. God knows there are many things wrong with the EU. I have listed them on here myself. But the UK with its economy on a knife edge, limited gold reserves and febrile internal political situation is in no condition to embark on this kind of adventure. We attract immigrants because our benefits system is too generous, but it is politically unacceptable to challenge this. Most of the immigrants who are a problem are those who do not accept the basic precepts of British society, do not think they have to, and have no intention of working. Most hotels in Glasgow are however staffed by Poles, Hungarians, Czechs and Slovenians, because their Scottish equivalents are a bunch of workshy slobs who resent providing a service and don't want the jobs. A significant proportion of the Scottish economy is entirely dependent on Eastern European labour, and without it won't work. Most of the bureaucracy we are complaining about does not come from Brussels but from the British Civil Service, and no one has ever got close to challenging them. We will only succeed if we are competitive and a large number of us are not even trying to be competitive. Are we even capable of dealing with these problems? We are deeply interconnected with Europe and all this is now at risk. To remain in a reformed EU was always the best solution.
Taking an optimistic view, this result may cause the EU to take stock and try to deal with its problems. It may realise that it cannot continue to expand recklessly, it has to become more democratically accountable, it cannot admit migrants in an uncontrolled way, it must control its finances, it cannot allow the Med countries to become employment black spots. It may end the idiotic political gravy train in Brussels Strasbourg and Luxembourg. It needs leadership and that must come from Germany, who cannot continue in the selfish manner they currently do. You can argue that in a sense we have never been full members of the EU. The UK joined the EEC. The EU was foisted on us without our consent. The UK has never subscribed to a full political union, and that issue was bound to come to a head at some point. It was not in the Euro and it was not in Schengen. The new relationship which now has to be forged could actually be a more honest and better statement of where we really were, may well involve us contributing to the EU, could well involve an acceptable level of movement of labour, and an acceptance of most if not all EU Directives and regulation. But it has to happen fast before the whole economy goes down the pan.
All the Dads Army buffers who think that we are going back to the good old days are going to be severely disappointed. They will be lucky if there is not a sterling crisis and a recession. Why did Cam go so quickly, when he knew the importance of stability? Because he knows how close we are to disaster. We are entering a new era of instability where England is a far weaker entity than it has been in the last 300 years, and anything might happen. At this moment we need political leadership and we don't have it. One other thing the Europeans are right about is timing. This needs to be sorted out fast. We don't have until four years come October. Someone needs to get a plan together right now.
Well done Alf Bloody Garnett you half witted prick. I hope that you are not planning to draw your pension any time soon.
It is clear to anybody with experience of both that there is exponentially more wealth and economic activity in England than there is in Scotland, and Scotland is a country with huge social expectations but no way of paying the bill. It's interest in being an EU member is based on the belief that they will receive the handouts they need to balance their budget. It is not imho viable as an independent country. Another referendum? I doubt it. They need to know whether the EU even want them as a member. There is a limit to how many small countries the Germans can fund or want to fund. It would be sensible to know what terms the UK are going to receive and how that goes. The SNP are not on the roll they were on. People are Referendummed out. There is a very real sense that we had that issue and we settled it and we don't want it again so soon. But it could happen and on the right day with the right conditions the SNP might win it. The prospect of how things might go then is frankly scary. One thing is for sure - I won't be staying.
Northern Ireland is a footnote here and a historical anachronism. Their desire to remain part of the UK is very simply an economic one. If the economics change they will join the Republic. Either way it is now an issue for democratic decision and I pray will remain that way.
I voted Remain. My first reaction when I saw how things were going in the early hours of Friday was to think, this is a f
king disaster. God knows there are many things wrong with the EU. I have listed them on here myself. But the UK with its economy on a knife edge, limited gold reserves and febrile internal political situation is in no condition to embark on this kind of adventure. We attract immigrants because our benefits system is too generous, but it is politically unacceptable to challenge this. Most of the immigrants who are a problem are those who do not accept the basic precepts of British society, do not think they have to, and have no intention of working. Most hotels in Glasgow are however staffed by Poles, Hungarians, Czechs and Slovenians, because their Scottish equivalents are a bunch of workshy slobs who resent providing a service and don't want the jobs. A significant proportion of the Scottish economy is entirely dependent on Eastern European labour, and without it won't work. Most of the bureaucracy we are complaining about does not come from Brussels but from the British Civil Service, and no one has ever got close to challenging them. We will only succeed if we are competitive and a large number of us are not even trying to be competitive. Are we even capable of dealing with these problems? We are deeply interconnected with Europe and all this is now at risk. To remain in a reformed EU was always the best solution.Taking an optimistic view, this result may cause the EU to take stock and try to deal with its problems. It may realise that it cannot continue to expand recklessly, it has to become more democratically accountable, it cannot admit migrants in an uncontrolled way, it must control its finances, it cannot allow the Med countries to become employment black spots. It may end the idiotic political gravy train in Brussels Strasbourg and Luxembourg. It needs leadership and that must come from Germany, who cannot continue in the selfish manner they currently do. You can argue that in a sense we have never been full members of the EU. The UK joined the EEC. The EU was foisted on us without our consent. The UK has never subscribed to a full political union, and that issue was bound to come to a head at some point. It was not in the Euro and it was not in Schengen. The new relationship which now has to be forged could actually be a more honest and better statement of where we really were, may well involve us contributing to the EU, could well involve an acceptable level of movement of labour, and an acceptance of most if not all EU Directives and regulation. But it has to happen fast before the whole economy goes down the pan.
All the Dads Army buffers who think that we are going back to the good old days are going to be severely disappointed. They will be lucky if there is not a sterling crisis and a recession. Why did Cam go so quickly, when he knew the importance of stability? Because he knows how close we are to disaster. We are entering a new era of instability where England is a far weaker entity than it has been in the last 300 years, and anything might happen. At this moment we need political leadership and we don't have it. One other thing the Europeans are right about is timing. This needs to be sorted out fast. We don't have until four years come October. Someone needs to get a plan together right now.
Well done Alf Bloody Garnett you half witted prick. I hope that you are not planning to draw your pension any time soon.
Edited by cardigankid on Saturday 25th June 20:58
Skyrat said:
Jesus, where to start with this one.
The Edinburgh Agreement made a precedent. It stated that Scotland had the right decide its own future. The Scottish parliament has the right to legislate for a second referendum.
The SNP may not have a majority in Holyrood, but there is a pro-independence majority so the referendum bill will be passed.
I can't believe this myth is still going. The Scottish economy is not based on oil. Yes, it's a significant bonus but even without it our GDP /GVA per capita is less than England's but still comparable to it. We don't need any oil.
You would if you left because the Scottish financial sector would make a stampede for the border.The Edinburgh Agreement made a precedent. It stated that Scotland had the right decide its own future. The Scottish parliament has the right to legislate for a second referendum.
The SNP may not have a majority in Holyrood, but there is a pro-independence majority so the referendum bill will be passed.
I can't believe this myth is still going. The Scottish economy is not based on oil. Yes, it's a significant bonus but even without it our GDP /GVA per capita is less than England's but still comparable to it. We don't need any oil.
burritoNinja said:
gooner1 said:
Damn you burritonNinja. I was actually praying to my God that no one would respond to the idiot.
I'm sorry but I just can't stand these nutters. On both sides at it! Sick and bloody tired of the politics of NI. News of Brexit on Friday morning and the first thing a caller into the Steven Nolan radio show said was about getting the flag back up on city hall. Huge huge world of all different cultures and backgrounds in our world and yet NI just remains the same old.It's all very well telling the people on the mainland about the beautiful scenery and friendly natives - the reality is that life here is dominated by selfish and thoughtless idiots from the lower classes who whine like babies if they don't get their own way. It's the result of 300 years of inbreeding. They refuse to "mix", they refuse to leave their ghettoes, they refuse to contemplate a lifestyle which relates to the rest of the UK. Knuckledraggers.
I was reading one of Ulster's Sunday red-tops yesterday (it is particulalrly virulent in its condemnation and harassment of paramilitaries so locals will know which one I mean ) and they claim that since the Good Friday Agreement, the EU has provided £480m towards "community" projects for the working classes from both sides of the divide.
The more cynical amongst us will wonder just what "projects" these are - a fair amount will have been siphoned-off into back pockets IMO. These are massive sums when all there is to see is some fresh murals and some Somme memorials. What happens now? In theory, even the Loyalists will be financially better off as a continuing part of the EU, and thus ought to back a united Ireland. Do they expect Westminster to take over the responsibility of paying their blackmail (oops, sorry, assistance......)?
Just think how much that cash could have helped more worthwhile projects in the UK. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.
The more cynical amongst us will wonder just what "projects" these are - a fair amount will have been siphoned-off into back pockets IMO. These are massive sums when all there is to see is some fresh murals and some Somme memorials. What happens now? In theory, even the Loyalists will be financially better off as a continuing part of the EU, and thus ought to back a united Ireland. Do they expect Westminster to take over the responsibility of paying their blackmail (oops, sorry, assistance......)?
Just think how much that cash could have helped more worthwhile projects in the UK. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.
nicanary said:
I was reading one of Ulster's Sunday red-tops yesterday (it is particulalrly virulent in its condemnation and harassment of paramilitaries so locals will know which one I mean ) and they claim that since the Good Friday Agreement, the EU has provided £480m towards "community" projects for the working classes from both sides of the divide.
The more cynical amongst us will wonder just what "projects" these are - a fair amount will have been siphoned-off into back pockets IMO. These are massive sums when all there is to see is some fresh murals and some Somme memorials. What happens now? In theory, even the Loyalists will be financially better off as a continuing part of the EU, and thus ought to back a united Ireland. Do they expect Westminster to take over the responsibility of paying their blackmail (oops, sorry, assistance......)?
Just think how much that cash could have helped more worthwhile projects in the UK. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.
An alternative viewpoint is what finer or more important project is there than to pension off the hardmen and keep them pensioned off? Cheap at the price no matter how distasteful it may be.The more cynical amongst us will wonder just what "projects" these are - a fair amount will have been siphoned-off into back pockets IMO. These are massive sums when all there is to see is some fresh murals and some Somme memorials. What happens now? In theory, even the Loyalists will be financially better off as a continuing part of the EU, and thus ought to back a united Ireland. Do they expect Westminster to take over the responsibility of paying their blackmail (oops, sorry, assistance......)?
Just think how much that cash could have helped more worthwhile projects in the UK. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.
slow_poke said:
An alternative viewpoint is what finer or more important project is there than to pension off the hardmen and keep them pensioned off? Cheap at the price no matter how distasteful it may be.
Yours is a valid point, and I've much enjoyed nicanary's input also. I've mentioned before here that I've recently returned to Belfast having lived in London for four years, so am perhaps more motivated to discuss matters such as these than I'd have been previously. I suppose in some ways I'm viewing things anew - or perhaps just with the benefit of having experienced life elsewhere.Anyway, I disgress. Pensioning off the hardmen is one thing, but how many of these 'reformed community leaders' are really, actually reformed? How many treat their salaries as a mere stipend, a top-up from income gained through more nefarious means?
I don't have the answer but I do know that paramilitary gangsterism is alive and well. It stands to reason many of those in receipt of state funds for... services rendered... are rendering quite a different service in parallel.
iphonedyou said:
slow_poke said:
An alternative viewpoint is what finer or more important project is there than to pension off the hardmen and keep them pensioned off? Cheap at the price no matter how distasteful it may be.
Yours is a valid point, and I've much enjoyed nicanary's input also. I've mentioned before here that I've recently returned to Belfast having lived in London for four years, so am perhaps more motivated to discuss matters such as these than I'd have been previously. I suppose in some ways I'm viewing things anew - or perhaps just with the benefit of having experienced life elsewhere.Anyway, I disgress. Pensioning off the hardmen is one thing, but how many of these 'reformed community leaders' are really, actually reformed? How many treat their salaries as a mere stipend, a top-up from income gained through more nefarious means?
I don't have the answer but I do know that paramilitary gangsterism is alive and well. It stands to reason many of those in receipt of state funds for... services rendered... are rendering quite a different service in parallel.
So-called "true British subjects" are in fact just taking the p*ss. As usual, it's "what's in it for us?".
I have relatives who were murdered during the "conflict" and it is now coming out that many of those killers were paid informers under special branch and MI5. It is disgusting to think that the police knew murders were going to happen and did nothing. On both sides at it. They ran very very high up agents in the IRA and the other groups. Like the other poster, I too lived away for 5 years abroad and we plan to leave again. NI is a beautiful place but it is just so full of hatred and backward crap such as the dinosaurs in the DUP and SF. My education is in engineering and my Wifes degree is in chemistry so we should hopefully be able to get a decent career going elsewhere. Perhaps England? Who knows.
Did you see the paper last week in which a loyalist parading had a nazi tattoo on his neck? What an insult to the brave soldiers who fought and died and served with dignity. It showed his facebook and he also has SS tattoos, is a loyalist, supports Israel and is a member of Combat 18. What a very mixed up hateful person.
We regret coming back.
Did you see the paper last week in which a loyalist parading had a nazi tattoo on his neck? What an insult to the brave soldiers who fought and died and served with dignity. It showed his facebook and he also has SS tattoos, is a loyalist, supports Israel and is a member of Combat 18. What a very mixed up hateful person.
We regret coming back.
burritoNinja said:
I have relatives who were murdered during the "conflict" and it is now coming out that many of those killers were paid informers under special branch and MI5. It is disgusting to think that the police knew murders were going to happen and did nothing. On both sides at it. They ran very very high up agents in the IRA and the other groups. Like the other poster, I too lived away for 5 years abroad and we plan to leave again. NI is a beautiful place but it is just so full of hatred and backward crap such as the dinosaurs in the DUP and SF. My education is in engineering and my Wifes degree is in chemistry so we should hopefully be able to get a decent career going elsewhere. Perhaps England? Who knows.
Did you see the paper last week in which a loyalist parading had a nazi tattoo on his neck? What an insult to the brave soldiers who fought and died and served with dignity. It showed his facebook and he also has SS tattoos, is a loyalist, supports Israel and is a member of Combat 18. What a very mixed up hateful person.
We regret coming back.
I've been criticised in tha past on PH for being a bit of a stirrer concerning NI and its cultures, and even been asked why I live here if I don't like it. Fair comment. Unfortunately I have a very limited family, and that family wants to live here, and that's the end of it. I'm retired and prepared to live anywhere - certainly my family could find employment at higher salaries on the mainland, but they don't want the upheaval and to leave friends behind.Did you see the paper last week in which a loyalist parading had a nazi tattoo on his neck? What an insult to the brave soldiers who fought and died and served with dignity. It showed his facebook and he also has SS tattoos, is a loyalist, supports Israel and is a member of Combat 18. What a very mixed up hateful person.
We regret coming back.
If you live on the Malone Road, or North Down's "Gold Coast" it's quite possible to pass through life without having contact with the lower classes and their bigotry. Sadly I have to encounter the dinosaurs on a daily basis. I've learned to keep my mouth shut and pretend I didn't see or hear. The whole way of life here irritates me intensely. It's all too late to change these people's attitudes - there has been some progress, there's no doubt about it, and plans are afoot for more integrated schools, but I suspect that these will be filled with the offspring of decent middle-class families, and the mouthbreathers will continue to fill their kids brains with the bitterness of centuries.
Have to say I've never had a problem living here.
We run a business selling garden machinery across all walks of life from land owners to struggling tenants and every time I travel away I'm always glad to get home. We have a great customer base who I enjoy dealing with.
I was involved for 5 years with a cross community project on the lower falls road and the lower shankill road. One day the van I was driving got a flat with a trailer on. The guy behind stopped and put his hazards on while 2 more guys in football tops came over and helped me do a rapid change while their mate waved traffic around us. If that happened in any English city I'm quite sure the response would not have been the same.
Every time we have overseas visitors, or we visit customers/factories abroad, or talk to tourists we constantly get bombarded with compliments about this small region, how we conduct ourselves and how we conduct business.
Yes we have problems that have been well documented for the world to see, but I love the country and I love the people despite their faults.
We run a business selling garden machinery across all walks of life from land owners to struggling tenants and every time I travel away I'm always glad to get home. We have a great customer base who I enjoy dealing with.
I was involved for 5 years with a cross community project on the lower falls road and the lower shankill road. One day the van I was driving got a flat with a trailer on. The guy behind stopped and put his hazards on while 2 more guys in football tops came over and helped me do a rapid change while their mate waved traffic around us. If that happened in any English city I'm quite sure the response would not have been the same.
Every time we have overseas visitors, or we visit customers/factories abroad, or talk to tourists we constantly get bombarded with compliments about this small region, how we conduct ourselves and how we conduct business.
Yes we have problems that have been well documented for the world to see, but I love the country and I love the people despite their faults.
irish boy said:
If that happened in any English city I'm quite sure the response would not have been the same.
I moved to London four years ago. My then girlfriend, now fiance, moved over eighteen months later to join me. A move away from home, new company and career, and all the upheaval that a move 400 miles away, to a city of eight million people, brings.She'd no sooner arrived than a very close family friend died entirely unexpectedly, somebody she'd known all her life. We used to commute in together on the tube, but a few days later I'd to travel for work and so she got the tube alone.
She was, by all accounts, failing to stifle her tears when a young woman leaned across the carriage and passed her a little hand written note on a scrunched up piece of paper.
'Don't worry - it'll get better.'
Eight million people. Humanity seemingly nowhere, yet everywhere.
TL;DR - NI doesn't have a monopoly on being a decent person.
Eric Mc said:
Are you involved in anything that might improve matters?
Although I see I've had back up, I agree that you have a fair point. There are a lot of people like me who sit back and let others take the brunt. All I can say in my defence is that I won't be listened to because I'm an outsider, and anyway nobody can change these entrenched attitudes.BTW I watched the local news at lunchtime, and there was an SDLP MLA who asked with a straight face why NI had to leave the EU just because GB was going to. To think that he's been elected by his constituents! I despair.
iphonedyou said:
I moved to London four years ago. My then girlfriend, now fiance, moved over eighteen months later to join me. A move away from home, new company and career, and all the upheaval that a move 400 miles away, to a city of eight million people, brings.
She'd no sooner arrived than a very close family friend died entirely unexpectedly, somebody she'd known all her life. We used to commute in together on the tube, but a few days later I'd to travel for work and so she got the tube alone.
She was, by all accounts, failing to stifle her tears when a young woman leaned across the carriage and passed her a little hand written note on a scrunched up piece of paper.
'Don't worry - it'll get better.'
Eight million people. Humanity seemingly nowhere, yet everywhere.
TL;DR - NI doesn't have a monopoly on being a decent person.
Thats good to hear, but I was more addressing the idea that NI was a cesspit of humanity. She'd no sooner arrived than a very close family friend died entirely unexpectedly, somebody she'd known all her life. We used to commute in together on the tube, but a few days later I'd to travel for work and so she got the tube alone.
She was, by all accounts, failing to stifle her tears when a young woman leaned across the carriage and passed her a little hand written note on a scrunched up piece of paper.
'Don't worry - it'll get better.'
Eight million people. Humanity seemingly nowhere, yet everywhere.
TL;DR - NI doesn't have a monopoly on being a decent person.
I don't know what there is a regular person could even do. We raise our kids to not be a certain way. We are an Atheist household so religion plays zero part in our lives. Not into politics either. So hopefully my kids when they are adults will not be entrenched with any extreme views.
nicanary said:
Although I see I've had back up, I agree that you have a fair point. There are a lot of people like me who sit back and let others take the brunt. All I can say in my defence is that I won't be listened to because I'm an outsider, and anyway nobody can change these entrenched attitudes.
BTW I watched the local news at lunchtime, and there was an SDLP MLA who asked with a straight face why NI had to leave the EU just because GB was going to. To think that he's been elected by his constituents! I despair.
There's no doubt, if you chose not to do anything to improve matters, you personally won't contribute to improving matters.BTW I watched the local news at lunchtime, and there was an SDLP MLA who asked with a straight face why NI had to leave the EU just because GB was going to. To think that he's been elected by his constituents! I despair.
It is so easy to stand on the sidelines and complain at others. We all do it - but now and then maybe we should take that step to be constructive rather than just being critical.
Eric Mc said:
There's no doubt, if you chose not to do anything to improve matters, you personally won't contribute to improving matters.
I'd have to disagree. The more of us 'normal' people there are in Northern Ireland, the more unacceptable it becomes to be anything else. That in itself helps.
In some ways, the opposite of the broken window theory.
nicanary said:
... In theory, even the Loyalists will be financially better off as a continuing part of the EU, and thus ought to back a united Ireland. Do they expect Westminster to take over the responsibility of paying their blackmail (oops, sorry, assistance......)?...
Even if the NI were allowed to remain part of the EU (as part of the Republic or otherwise), there's bugger all guarantee sums like 480m would still happen. In essence it's not EU money. It's the UK getting some of its contribution back. Without the UK's contribution, there is less money in the EU pot to dole out. And the chances of the EU standing there with open arms for more net recipients is zero at this point.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff