"No more Polish vermin"
Discussion
davepoth said:
£5 might not make a difference to powerfully built directors such as yourselves, but imagine if it made the difference between going overdrawn or not - my bank charges £80 for that privilege. Or that might force you to go to a payday lender, or a loan shark. That's even before you consider that £5 is probably just about enough to feed a person for a week if you subsist on noodles, or enough to heat your bedsit.
You seem to have very little appreciation for quite how a segment of society does live so close to the breadline that £5 can and does make the difference. I think you should both take a good look in the mirror and see if you recognise the person looking back, because it's probably Margaret Thatcher's ghost. And she will be angry with you for being mean.
You are just embarrassing yourself now. My first job in the UK was pizza delivery, and I did that for more than 3 months. Even then, £5/month made a grand total of fa difference to anything. You seem to have very little appreciation for quite how a segment of society does live so close to the breadline that £5 can and does make the difference. I think you should both take a good look in the mirror and see if you recognise the person looking back, because it's probably Margaret Thatcher's ghost. And she will be angry with you for being mean.
Seriously, embarrassing; 'Omg if I only had 1p more I could buy that portion of noodles that would sustain me for the whole day!'. 1p makes all the difference, right?
///ajd said:
Deptford Draylons said:
///ajd said:
And immigration can CREATE more jobs than they take - there is no limit on the number of jobs - its a well known fallacy to suggest "they are taking our jobs".
Create more than they take. Can you define that a little further for everyone ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_falla...
HTH
Easyjet has over 10,000 employees. Who started that company again?
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 18th February 21:45
///ajd said:
I do care. I want them to have a job - and that's going to be something supported by a strong economy, not one hobbled by hard brexit.
Plainly you don't care about your fellow citizen, because you'd be advocating for him if you did. The plain fact is that in a majority of low wage jobs an average immigrant will be better at it than the average British person will be, and that's for two reasons. Firstly if the immigrant comes from a lower wage economy they'll be happier with a higher (although still low) wage when they arrive here. That point is backed up by the study above. Secondly because it's the best and the brightest who have the drive to better themselves who emigrate from their home country. I don't have a study for that but I think that the world is in broad agreement on that point.Compared with the feckless, workshy, poorly educated and borderline illiterate people that are churned out of sink estate comprehensives on an annual basis in this country I can see why any sensible businessperson would take the logical option and hire someone who is most capable and willing to do the job they are presented with, regardless of where they come from.
I'm not demonising immigrants, I'm bemoaning the fact that the most disadvantaged people in the UK are unable to compete with them because they don't have the skills or attitude to do so - the immigrants are just so much better. And while business have access to the kind of talent they need at a price that can't be beaten, why would they bother employing anyone local?
jjlynn27 said:
You are just embarrassing yourself now. My first job in the UK was pizza delivery, and I did that for more than 3 months. Even then, £5/month made a grand total of fa difference to anything.
https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/blog/only-10...In 2015, 5 million people in this country had less than £10 left over at the end of the month. I have a feeling that a difference of £5 would be quite important to them.
davepoth said:
///ajd said:
I do care. I want them to have a job - and that's going to be something supported by a strong economy, not one hobbled by hard brexit.
Plainly you don't care about your fellow citizen, because you'd be advocating for him if you did. The plain fact is that in a majority of low wage jobs an average immigrant will be better at it than the average British person will be, and that's for two reasons. Firstly if the immigrant comes from a lower wage economy they'll be happier with a higher (although still low) wage when they arrive here. That point is backed up by the study above. Secondly because it's the best and the brightest who have the drive to better themselves who emigrate from their home country. I don't have a study for that but I think that the world is in broad agreement on that point.Compared with the feckless, workshy, poorly educated and borderline illiterate people that are churned out of sink estate comprehensives on an annual basis in this country I can see why any sensible businessperson would take the logical option and hire someone who is most capable and willing to do the job they are presented with, regardless of where they come from.
I'm not demonising immigrants, I'm bemoaning the fact that the most disadvantaged people in the UK are unable to compete with them because they don't have the skills or attitude to do so - the immigrants are just so much better. And while business have access to the kind of talent they need at a price that can't be beaten, why would they bother employing anyone local?
Your low opinion of UK workers and their ability to better themselves is frankly rather depressing.
Extending your resentment of "able immigrants" - should we keep out the ones who are able then? One minute they are all thieving feckless rapists, invading our country, and we only want to let in the good ones, now you are saying we should keep out all the good ones out too?
Brexit will hit the poor harder than remain. For me that's almost certain, so lectures on whether brexiteers somehow care more about the poor ring pretty hollow.
///ajd said:
We'll beg to differ.
Your low opinion of UK workers and their ability to better themselves is frankly rather depressing.
Extending your resentment of "able immigrants" - should we keep out the ones who are able then? One minute they are all thieving feckless rapists, invading our country, and we only want to let in the good ones, now you are saying we should keep out all the good ones out too?
Brexit will hit the poor harder than remain. For me that's almost certain, so lectures on whether brexiteers somehow care more about the poor ring pretty hollow.
You're funny. I'm pretty sure you're the only one calling immigrants names. Your low opinion of UK workers and their ability to better themselves is frankly rather depressing.
Extending your resentment of "able immigrants" - should we keep out the ones who are able then? One minute they are all thieving feckless rapists, invading our country, and we only want to let in the good ones, now you are saying we should keep out all the good ones out too?
Brexit will hit the poor harder than remain. For me that's almost certain, so lectures on whether brexiteers somehow care more about the poor ring pretty hollow.
Business doesn't have a consciousness in the main, all it wants to do is find the easiest way to make money, in the same way that water finds its way to the sea.
Sometimes we like to divert rivers; the water might take longer to get to the sea but we make it do something productive on the way. We might want to use the flow to irrigate a field, dam a valley to generate hydroelectric power, or canalise it to ease navigation.
What we are doing by ending freedom of movement is to channel business to do some work for us on its way to making money - it will have to support British citizens by employing and developing them.
As for immigration, if there is a genuine need that can't be fulfilled, perhaps because the demand has spiked more quickly than workers can be trained (doctors for example) we might need immigrants. We'd certainly want to be able to bring in guest workers for fixed term contracts (seasonal work like farming for example). If it turned out that the economy had reached full employment and the general lack of labour was hurting business, then we might need more immigration.
It's not about stopping immigration, but controlling it - I completely accept that we could end up with higher immigration under any new system. The point would be that those people would be coming here because we wanted them to come, and not the other way around.
Deptford Draylons said:
///ajd said:
Deptford Draylons said:
///ajd said:
And immigration can CREATE more jobs than they take - there is no limit on the number of jobs - its a well known fallacy to suggest "they are taking our jobs".
Create more than they take. Can you define that a little further for everyone ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_falla...
HTH
Easyjet has over 10,000 employees. Who started that company again?
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 18th February 21:45
berlintaxi said:
Deptford Draylons said:
///ajd said:
Deptford Draylons said:
///ajd said:
And immigration can CREATE more jobs than they take - there is no limit on the number of jobs - its a well known fallacy to suggest "they are taking our jobs".
Create more than they take. Can you define that a little further for everyone ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_falla...
HTH
Easyjet has over 10,000 employees. Who started that company again?
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 18th February 21:45
tty low budget airlines mixed up there. Edited by Deptford Draylons on Sunday 19th February 09:59
davepoth said:
///ajd said:
I do care. I want them to have a job - and that's going to be something supported by a strong economy, not one hobbled by hard brexit.
Plainly you don't care about your fellow citizen, because you'd be advocating for him if you did. The plain fact is that in a majority of low wage jobs an average immigrant will be better at it than the average British person will be, and that's for two reasons. Firstly if the immigrant comes from a lower wage economy they'll be happier with a higher (although still low) wage when they arrive here. That point is backed up by the study above. Secondly because it's the best and the brightest who have the drive to better themselves who emigrate from their home country. I don't have a study for that but I think that the world is in broad agreement on that point.Compared with the feckless, workshy, poorly educated and borderline illiterate people that are churned out of sink estate comprehensives on an annual basis in this country I can see why any sensible businessperson would take the logical option and hire someone who is most capable and willing to do the job they are presented with, regardless of where they come from.
I'm not demonising immigrants, I'm bemoaning the fact that the most disadvantaged people in the UK are unable to compete with them because they don't have the skills or attitude to do so - the immigrants are just so much better. And while business have access to the kind of talent they need at a price that can't be beaten, why would they bother employing anyone local?
Exactly - the solution to business wasn't to invest in training and development it was effectively to "import" better trained staff....
That situation was made very easy by "Free Movement"
davepoth said:
jjlynn27 said:
You are just embarrassing yourself now. My first job in the UK was pizza delivery, and I did that for more than 3 months. Even then, £5/month made a grand total of fa difference to anything.
https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/blog/only-10...In 2015, 5 million people in this country had less than £10 left over at the end of the month. I have a feeling that a difference of £5 would be quite important to them.
ked in either case. This would ignore all the people who are better off because of immigration. B'stard Child said:
Exactly - the solution to business wasn't to invest in training and development it was effectively to "import" better trained staff....
That situation was made very easy by "Free Movement"
(Lots of dodgy internet qualifications obviously).
Anyway, it's pointless just creating a pyramid scheme of fake economic growth where nearly all the new jobs are migrant jobs and all that happens is the country becomes overcrowded, roads gridlocked in the SE already, and hospitals, schools etc. can't cope.
What is required is more training of UK residents to improve productivity and more intelligent organised use of the workforce already here.
Things like students (who always need cash) could make a substantial contribution of seasonal farm work for instance, with a bit of organisation - it would be a win win.
jjlynn27 said:
Your posts are getting more and more ridiculous. The author of the article should learn the difference between disposable and discretionary income before writing on the subject. Even if you take that all the people in that group are on low incomes and all of their salaries are affected by immigration, which is quite clearly not the case, the article would read '5 mil brits have less than £15 at the end of the month'. No difference at all, none. They are fked in either case. This would ignore all the people who are better off because of immigration.
I was merely pointing out that £5 a month would make quite a lot of difference to a substantial number of people. ked in either case. This would ignore all the people who are better off because of immigration. "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
Wrote Dickens in David Copperfield. I suppose you're going to tell me he was wrong too?
Colonial said:
davepoth said:
Quote me then. Find me one place where I've said anything other than nice things about immigrants.
You were the one making convoluted statements about some difference between "ethnicism" and racism to excuse the fact you didn't care about Syrian kids right?-edit-
Found it.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing//topic.asp?h=0&...
-edit-
Not quite sure how this is me saying a bad thing about an immigrant though. And the point that I was trying to make was that (in the true spirit of international fraternalism) there is nothing wrong with France.
Edited by davepoth on Sunday 19th February 13:22
Colonial said:
Funny how ph conservatives only pretend to care about the working class when they think they can score points about how bad foreigners are
Like most "funny about" things it applies both ways. Funny how the champions of the working class are so eager to dump unlimited numbers of immigrants in mostly working class areas regardless of the views of the working class.davepoth said:
I was merely pointing out that £5 a month would make quite a lot of difference to a substantial number of people.
It actually doesn't. I have the dubious pleasure of having lived on benefits for 18 months while injured. I had F* all. When you are in that situation it's not a fiver here and there, it's the big things that blindside you. It's not having the spare to mend the car, the bike, whatever. Nobody is so precisely geared that £5 makes "a substantial difference". I know, I've been there. What happens is that you don't have a fiver so that week you don't get meat. Those 4 cans of Aldi cider that you get as a treat most weeks (£2) stay in the shop. The prepay electric meter runs out so rather than sit in the dark you go to see your mate. You get the picture.
The point is that immigration and economies are not a zero-sum game. There isn't a fixed amount of money or work out there. The Polish guys in my factory don't live in a vacuum, they pay rent. They drive cars. Local mechanics mend them. They get food in the supermarket, and go to the pub. You know, real life. I don't see the local publicans turning them away. This is Page 1 Keynesian stuff.
"Students could work on farms in summer".
Yes they could, they do now. They did in the past. There is and will always be demand for seasonal labour. The factories where I work take on students all the time to cope with peaks and troughs. Along with Poles, Slovakians, Lithuanians, West Indians, Pakistanis, etc.
We don't care who they are, we just need arms and legs to put food in boxes and stack the stuff on a pallet.
As for Dickens, he was of course right, in simple terms. He was also trotting out a truism for literary effect. However in the real world it's a little more complex than that, and nobody has a fixed outgoing of 19s/6d or 20/-.
Edited by battered on Sunday 19th February 15:49
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