"No more Polish vermin"

[Tryke3]

battered said:

You can say that if you want. What he said was "output" which is about getting the work done.

I work in factories. We don't pay our UK native staff any more than the Polish ones. However it's the Polish ones who turn up reliably every day and do the work. We don't make unreasonable demands of anyone, turn up, work, go home, turn up the next day. Not rocket science but there are more than a few UK national unemployables who find this whole "daily work" thing a bit of a chore. If we left it up to them we wouldn't be making very much.

You liberal tt, stop drinking champers and think more about the lazy!!!!!! Its only right that the english get to ruin english companies

[Pan Pan Pan]

Rawwr said:

Liokault said:

Maybe the sort of people who made up the 90% of workers before they were displaced by the polish.

They weren't displaced. We can't fill our production lines with those good ol' English workers because they don't want to do it. These jobs are all available to the English but applications are few and far between. If we didn't employ hundreds of Polish workers, our output would be on the floor.

This is one of the problems with the current situation. There seem to be quite a number in the UK for whom living on benefits is a lifestyle choice, Why bother getting out of bed when one can live on benefits watching Jeremy Kyle on daytime tv, and wandering down to Mcdonalds when they feel hungry, especially when there are hundreds of thousands of people from outside the UK who `will' do the work, which provides the profits/taxes which funds their benefits lifestyle. If Brexit does have an impact on immigrant numbers in the UK. perhaps our own workshy cane be presented with a no benefits of any kind if those that can work, but don't want to, refuse jobs, in which a labour shortage exists.
It seems a bit odd to have large numbers of indigenous can work, but wont work individuals, whilst at the same time importing people to do the work that indigenous wont / don't want to do. This system would only be ultimately viable, if the can work, but don't want to work individuals could be removed from the system, eventually leaving only those who are prepared to work for themselves and for a living in the system.

[Rich_W]

battered said:

I work in factories. We don't pay our UK native staff any more than the Polish ones. However it's the Polish ones who turn up reliably every day and do the work. We don't make unreasonable demands of anyone, turn up, work, go home, turn up the next day. Not rocket science but there are more than a few UK national unemployables who find this whole "daily work" thing a bit of a chore. If we left it up to them we wouldn't be making very much.

What I dislike in all this talk is the stereotypes. Not every low IQ Brit wants to watch Jeremey Kyle. Not every Pole/Eastern European wants to work either.


Choose from the following. All were fluent btw

Pole A : Had lived here for since 2000. Had a wife and child here. Got the English way of life and our sense of humour. Worked really hard. Was made redundant when I was in 08.

Pole B: Lived here around the same amount of time. (2000ish) When he first started work where I used to, was helpful and couldn't do enough. Now makes himself scarce for half the day. Gets the Brits, but post Brexit the venom/sarcasm towards Brits from him has been rising. Was sending money home and claiming tax credits for people not in the UK until the loopholes were tightened up in the last year 18 months or so. Regularly goes home for holidays/ residency reasons.

Pole C: Girl I saw a few times. So slight difference. Good job, good English sense of humour. Rarely went back to Poland as said her life and friends were here.

Hungarian A: (Apparently used to drive Tanks in the Hungarian Army so wasn't the smartest guy). Literally the most lazy person I've ever worked alongside! Would just stand out of the way and do less than bare minimum between 8 and 6 apart from talk on his mobile and make sure he took every single min of his allocated break. Transferred to another site in the end.

Albanain A: She's lived here since she was a little girl. But still refers to herself as Albanian. All her friends are Albanian and its rare to see her with British work colleagues out of work. Good at her job though Is on the same money as others. Does this count as successfully integrating into society?

Bulgarian A : Was CONSTANTLY absent through "sick", made no effort at work. Had multiple fag breaks. She was eventually dismissed.

Spanish Family A : Noisy, don't care about anyone but themselves. Constantly fighting amongst themselves. None of the family work. Such a great addition to our British way of life

Inevitably this is a few cases and they'll be extremes all over the place. But IME its very 50/50 at best. And whilst I don't agree with the "vermin" line. There is a case to be made for fully understanding WHY the immigrants will work for less than the Brits and the effect this has on people born here. Without cries of Racism or Xenonphobia

Edited by Rich_W on Friday 2nd September 11:15

[battered]

Pan Pan Pan said:

It seems a bit odd to have large numbers of indigenous can work, but wont work individuals, whilst at the same time importing people to do the work that indigenous wont / don't want to do. This system would only be ultimately viable, if the can work, but don't want to work individuals could be removed from the system, eventually leaving only those who are prepared to work for themselves and for a living in the system.

There is a shortage of unskilled work in a number of regions of Britain. The traditional employers of the unskilled are no more - the mills, mines and farms are gone or have been mechanised. In addition the traditional means of culling the unemployed, war, has gone out of fashion of late. We all know that there was no such thing as unemployment in 1950-1955 because if you had a full set of limbs you could get a job somewhere, hewever unskilled you were. That's why we had to import unskilled labour from the former colonies. Assisted passages from India, the West Indies, all that. In addition, East European migrant labour is nothing new. My Dad remembers working in mines as a teenager, the mines took on refugees following the Hungarian Uprising of 1956(?)and similar numbers of Poles at a similar time, they took up the slack at a time when hundreds of thousands of young men hadn't come home in 1945.

I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong, just stating the historical facts.

[jurbie]

battered said:

My Dad remembers working in mines as a teenager, the mines took on refugees following the Hungarian Uprising of 1956(?)and similar numbers of Poles at a similar time, they took up the slack at a time when hundreds of thousands of young men hadn't come home in 1945.

I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong, just stating the historical facts.

The Poles weren't particularly welcome then either, Poles go home was a typical sentiment aimed at the 150,000 or so recently de-mobilised Polish soldiers and their families now on UK soil. It was felt that they were taking jobs and housing from British soldiers returning from the war and it even got to a point where the unions would try to intimidate businesses that took on Polish workers.

It was a sad state of affairs really as everyone appreciated the efforts of the Poles in WW2 but failed to realise that the war hadn't really ended in Poland as all they'd managed to do was swap one evil foreign regime for another. It all worked out in the end and we integrated rather well and hopefully the same will happen again.

[Northern Munkee]

battered said:

Foliage said:

Rawwr said:

Liokault said:

Maybe the sort of people who made up the 90% of workers before they were displaced by the polish.

They weren't displaced. We can't fill our production lines with those good ol' English workers because they don't want to do it. These jobs are all available to the English but applications are few and far between. If we didn't employ hundreds of Polish workers, our output would be on the floor.

So its about profits and share price, so the company owners can make as much as possible. Gotcha. Greed is good.

You can say that if you want. What he said was "output" which is about getting the work done.

I work in factories. We don't pay our UK native staff any more than the Polish ones. However it's the Polish ones who turn up reliably every day and do the work. We don't make unreasonable demands of anyone, turn up, work, go home, turn up the next day. Not rocket science but there are more than a few UK national unemployables who find this whole "daily work" thing a bit of a chore. If we left it up to them we wouldn't be making very much.

While I know there are people (UK citizens) who think benefits are lifestyle, and I quite agree it should be little more than a safety net to motivate the employee but I'm also a little curious about the "jobs" on offer, and what the pay, terms and conditions are that these people won't take "you pay the UK staff no more than the Poles", okay but how much is that? Is it the "going rate"? And would that be NMW? And terms & conditions, are these temporary contracts, with no security, and do they get guaranteed hours? what hours do they have to be available for, hours they may or may not get? Will it lead to a permanent "proper" job , in the old fashioned sense of a job, or are they "agency staff" or in the strange situation where they are quasi self employed. The unfortunate aspect of free movement of people/labour is ready supply of cheap labour from abroad. A ready supply (of cheap) workers and demand. There maybe more to it than just Brits won't work, and perhaps some (not all) that won't put up with crap pay and conditions that many normal people wouldn't put up with on here, especially if your benefit claim takes 3-4wks to sort out each time you sign back on.

Edited by Northern Munkee on Thursday 1st September 17:50

[Digga]

I can certainly say that for low skilled jobs, 'something' did happen in the early 2000s. We had no end of staff churn in these jobs.

Something else clicked too though, more recently - changes to benefits and, I believe, attitudes some of which may be a positive rub-off from hardworking immigrants or merely the presence of them in the job market - all for the better. In particular, the generation who left school within the last 5 or so years, and also the work experience students we've had through the place, have generally had an excellent attitude to work.

[battered]

Northern Munkee said:

battered said:

Foliage said:

Rawwr said:

Liokault said:

Maybe the sort of people who made up the 90% of workers before they were displaced by the polish.

They weren't displaced. We can't fill our production lines with those good ol' English workers because they don't want to do it. These jobs are all available to the English but applications are few and far between. If we didn't employ hundreds of Polish workers, our output would be on the floor.

So its about profits and share price, so the company owners can make as much as possible. Gotcha. Greed is good.

You can say that if you want. What he said was "output" which is about getting the work done.

I work in factories. We don't pay our UK native staff any more than the Polish ones. However it's the Polish ones who turn up reliably every day and do the work. We don't make unreasonable demands of anyone, turn up, work, go home, turn up the next day. Not rocket science but there are more than a few UK national unemployables who find this whole "daily work" thing a bit of a chore. If we left it up to them we wouldn't be making very much.

While I know there are people (UK citizens) who think benefits are lifestyle, and I quite agree it should be little more than a safety net to motivate the employee but I'm also a little curious about the "jobs" on offer, and what the pay, terms and conditions are that these people won't take "you pay the UK staff no more than the Poles", okay but how much is that? Is it the "going rate"? And would that be NMW? And terms & conditions, are these temporary contracts, with no security, and do they get guaranteed hours? what hours do they have to be available for, hours they may or may not get? Will it lead to a permanent "proper" job , in the old fashioned sense of a job, or are they "agency staff" or in the strange situation where they are quasi self employed. The unfortunate aspect of free movement of people/labour is ready supply of cheap labour from abroad. A ready supply (of cheap) workers and demand. There maybe more to it than just Brits won't work, and perhaps some (not all) that won't put up with crap pay and conditions that many normal people wouldn't put up with on here, especially if your benefit claim takes 3-4wks to sort out each time you sign back on.

OK, trying not to generalise. Obviously not every unemployed Brit wants to watch Jeremy Kyle and do FA all day. Obviously not every Pole is a total star who has never done anything wrong in his life. Some Poles are in UK prisons for crimes they have committed here. That's life. We can all find odd examples of individuals who fit what we want to believe. We all have an Uncle Albert who smoked 40 a day all his life and died aged 85 having never had a day sick, so this proves fags don't cause cancer. Does it really?

The jobs I am talking about are standard issue UK factory jobs. Some start with the agency, sure, we need flexible labour. Demand goes up and down, we will always need casuals to take up the slack. The work pays NMW. So it should, it's unskilled. If all you have to do is put jars of jam in trays and stack them on a pallet then why should you be paid more than NMW? That's what NMW is for.
All our staff get guaranteed hours. Maybe shifts, maybe not, it depends on location. Some factories (or parts thereof) run 8-4 or whatever. We don't employ "self employed" people who really aren't, we don't do zero hours. If you get taken on as a permy, and we have more than a few, you are an employee in the traditional sense with all the legal protections that that provides. Paid holidays, sick, the lot. Quite right too. Some UK native people do these jobs for many years. So do some Poles. The proportion varies from site to site. However one thing that I have observed across a number of sites, and I have worked at maybe 20 food manufacturing sites over the last 5 years or so, is that the Poles who come here are the cream of the crop. By definition if you have the drive to leave home and seek your fortune 1000 miles away, you are a winner. The Jeremy Kyle watchers in Poland (Yeremi Kyleski?) don't leave the place, because it's all a bit too hard. Because our unemployables can't leave the UK, they have to compete with the better, more driven, brighter foreign alternatives.

So I don't accept that the jobs we offer or the conditions "aren't good enough". They may be boring and not especially well paid but they are OK. Nobody is being enslaved. If you are that good, go somewhere better. If not, then grit your teeth and do the work. It's not the fault of the Poles or anyone else. It's not even the fault of immigration, if it weren't Poles it would be Northerners, in London at least. There are already 2 economies in the UK, one inside the M25, one out. It has always been thus, the stream of white vans on the M1 every Friday afternoon aren't there for fun. Nor are the brickies on the trains every week. Those people were doing this 30 years ago. Movement of labour has always been there, it's not going away.

[Digga]

battered said:

So I don't accept that the jobs we offer or the conditions "aren't good enough". They may be boring and not especially well paid but they are OK...

IME, (see my previous post) the pay and conditions were pretty much irrelevant for two reasons;

1. We had extant staff who'd been with us previously, stayed with us and, in fact are still with us
2. On the similar pay and conditions today, we are having extremely positive employee experiences

I do honestly think that when New Labour got in they inculcated some of the workforce with an entitlement and benefit mindset.

[battered]

Digga said:

ME, (see my previous post) the pay and conditions were pretty much irrelevant for two reasons;

1. We had extant staff who'd been with us previously, stayed with us and, in fact are still with us
2. On the similar pay and conditions today, we are having extremely positive employee experiences

I do honestly think that when New Labour got in they inculcated some of the workforce with an entitlement and benefit mindset.

All down to New Labour? Wasn't happening previously then? bks. Leave your political soap box at the door.

[pim]

This poor chap got kicked to death because of his nationality.

The mindset of some people after brexit is scary.We are leaving the E.U.Not Europe but how many people are to thick to understand that?

[Digga]

battered said:

Digga said:

ME, (see my previous post) the pay and conditions were pretty much irrelevant for two reasons;

1. We had extant staff who'd been with us previously, stayed with us and, in fact are still with us
2. On the similar pay and conditions today, we are having extremely positive employee experiences

I do honestly think that when New Labour got in they inculcated some of the workforce with an entitlement and benefit mindset.

All down to New Labour? Wasn't happening previously then? bks. Leave your political soap box at the door.

I didn't say that, but then the hardline left were never very good at listening - all that top-down, dogma defending nonsense muddles people's normal communication channels.

The issue of attitude was definitely present before, but got perceptibly worse. You had the system which decided 'everyone' should be a graduate and go into a 'managerial' role. Demonstrably cretinous.

[vonuber]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/12/po...

Another.

[Digga]

vonuber said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/12/po...

Another.

TBF, with due respect to Leeds, Armley is not the most salubrious of areas. So I'm not entirely convinced it was necessarily so much racially aggravated as racially embellished. Either way, I hope they catch the nasty little scrotes and hurl the book at them and, more importantly, that our Polish friend makes a full recovery.

[Vaud]

Digga said:

TBF, with due respect to Leeds, Armley is not the most salubrious of areas. So I'm not entirely convinced it was necessarily so much racially aggravated as racially embellished. Either way, I hope they catch the nasty little scrotes and hurl the book at them and, more importantly, that our Polish friend makes a full recovery.

You wouldn't find me walking down that part of Armley at night. Or in much of the daytime on my own...

[Digga]

Vaud said:

Digga said:

TBF, with due respect to Leeds, Armley is not the most salubrious of areas. So I'm not entirely convinced it was necessarily so much racially aggravated as racially embellished. Either way, I hope they catch the nasty little scrotes and hurl the book at them and, more importantly, that our Polish friend makes a full recovery.

You wouldn't find me walking down that part of Armley at night. Or in much of the daytime on my own...

A good friend of mine spent 3 (mostly happy) years living in Leeds, studying for her BSc. The only place they lived that they were glad to see the back of was IIRC a terraced house on Burley Road and a more unsuitable residence for female students you could not conceive. (I think the terrace has been knocked down since.)

[battered]

I lived a mile from there for 5 years, it's a grotty area populated by white trash. I'd walk through it anytime but it's rough. My money says very much racially motivated.

[BlackLabel]

Boy, 15, charged with killing of Polish man in Harlow Teenager charged with Arkadiusz Jóźwik’s manslaughter, with CPS understood not to be prosecuting case as a hate crime

[crankedup]

My understanding is that the Polish workers in the U.K. are moaning about being undercut in wages by Romainion workers.
How ironic

[Digga]

crankedup said:

My understanding is that the Polish workers in the U.K. are moaning about being undercut in wages by Romainion workers.
How ironic

Irrespective of whether, or not, that's right, I'm not sure the comment sits comfortably on this thread. Certainly not with a laughing smiley.

As for the kid who's been charged, we'll perhaps never get to know exactly - as he's a minor - but let's hope he spends plenty of time contemplating his error. It was an utterly disgusting crime.