"No more Polish vermin"

[///ajd]

don'tbesilly said:

///ajd said:

Rich_W said:

rscott said:

...
Based on feedback from a friend who actually owns a large soft fruit producing company, he finds that the Eastern European workforce work harder, more efficiently and with fewer absences that UK staff. He pays a decent wage (more than most supermarkets) plus provides reasonable accommodation and perks for the staff.

So it's fine to say Brits are lazy. But not Immigrants? Id question why he can't get any Brits to work for him if he pays so well. Maybe hes not even selecting them for interview. He's providing accommodation and perks? Do they pay council tax/bills when they stay with him? And yet NO brits want the work? I have in my head a Victorian mill owner type.

Murph7355 said:

It's saying that if you want to work for a living, how on earth can you be beaten to a job if someone without English as their first language, and lesser ability to have contacts, can get those jobs first...

If you are happy to work for less than market value then of course you can get a job more easily. For example. I know what I'm worth in m job. Obviously Id like 20% more a year. Who wouldn't. But I wouldn't take 30% less for the same work. Would you? But I happen to know a Pole who did take that and was very happy to be getting more than when he was in Poland. TBF he returned home last summer after a good 8-9 year of being here. No clue if it was Brexit related.

battered said:

The Poles have pushed that down, for sure.

I didn't realise it was OK for us to be in a race to the bottom. Surely if the Poles were smart they'd charge the same or price beat by a small percentage. No one minds competition. But to undercut the brits by a large percentage 25-40% only serves to ps off indigenous people who've spent years building up their business in the UK with the earnings cut they took to play the long game.

battered said:

But you haven't. It's not zero-sum and there isn't a fixed number of jobs to do. I pointed this out earlier, if you bring in 1000 Poles then they all need somewhere to live, they all need to buy food, they all have cars that need fuel and repairs and they all go to the pub. This keeps the shelf stackers, mechanics, and publicans in business.

I'm not convinced. I can only speak from what I've seen. Firstly there IS a finite number of jobs. 1000 extra poles will need extra housing which we don't exactly have a surplus of (so rents go up) and we aren't building thousands of homes (so no extra work) Food and Fuel I'll accept (though it is interesting that the guys I see in Tescos regularly NEVER pay for the multiple plastic bags they steal) Don't know a single Pole who take their car to a garage. Its always a bodge repair for £20. And remember every one you see on Polish plates isn't paying VED either. (since they aren't registered with the dvla. And they are SUPPOSED to do so after 6 months but they dont) And you wonder about UK insurance too but theres no way of checking. And literally NONE of them go to the Pub. They tend towards drinking/eating at home (Polish beer of course) playing computer games. Last time you saw a group of 5-6 Polish guys in a bar chatting up girls and doing what Brits do?

battered said:

We all know that the average immigrant Pole is more likely to be in work and therefore paying tax to UK govt than the average unskilled Brit.

There we go again with the Brit bashing again. But that's fine isn't it...

///ajd said:

As discussed above:

- the difference in wages is very small in real terms
- there is not a fixed number of jobs; it is misleading to assume there is - you would make completely false deductions from the impact of immigration if you did

- despite the readily available facts above, some still insist on reading it another way. It can hardly be surprising when some start to question the motives or reasons for such "alternative" reasoning.

I know your a mouth piece for Blair, but your wrong!

1) Difference in wages is because poster above mate who hire poles for his farm IS NOT HIRING Brits. So what do the Brits do for work?
2) In my industry we have NOT increased our staff count due to 3.3M coming over from the EU. We haven't seen an increase in demand to that (proportional since obviously they don't all need our services) level
3) Again, Brits bad. Immigrants good. But hey, only people who question immigration are racist yeah? hating White Brits is still racism. (though of course Dianne Abbott would disagree)

battered said:

Read some economics, then you'll see that employment is indeed elastic. Within normal population bounds employment is effectively infinite. Think about it, if you double a population you double the need for housing, cars, food, clothing, house repairs, car repairs, so it goes on. That's twice the jobs, albeit in simplistic terms. Employment and money are not a fixed pot full of stuff.

Keynes went through all this a century ago or more.

You don't understand the practices of a sizeable chunk of low skilled EU immigrants then. By which I mean the ones that are not planning on staying long term in the UK, gaining citizenship etc. And this I believe is probably well over 50-60%. If the work dried up tomorrow they'd be gone by the end of the week.

They aren't out there spending their pay check every month generating income for the country. They are saving it, spending it frugally, and in many cases sending it home. And in some cases I personally know of claiming child tax credits for children not in the UK. Which is partly a government policy failure because we can't be seen to be racist after all even if millions of pounds are leaving our economy...

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 19th February 18:15

You obviously have very strong feelings about Poles.

You are convinced that absolutely none of them go to the pub, take their car to the garage or pay VED.

So they are all breaking the law, basically, in your view?

Sounds like you think they are all inferior to you.

So Rich's well thought through and reasoned responses to battered posts about Polish immigrants becomes 'strong feelings' by Rich_W against Polish immigrants, and makes Rich_W superior to Polish immigrants.

Only you could twist his post like that,so well done

I was trying to be polite.

I haven't twisted anything - its all there.

[don'tbesilly]

///ajd said:

don'tbesilly said:

///ajd said:

Rich_W said:

rscott said:

...
Based on feedback from a friend who actually owns a large soft fruit producing company, he finds that the Eastern European workforce work harder, more efficiently and with fewer absences that UK staff. He pays a decent wage (more than most supermarkets) plus provides reasonable accommodation and perks for the staff.

So it's fine to say Brits are lazy. But not Immigrants? Id question why he can't get any Brits to work for him if he pays so well. Maybe hes not even selecting them for interview. He's providing accommodation and perks? Do they pay council tax/bills when they stay with him? And yet NO brits want the work? I have in my head a Victorian mill owner type.

Murph7355 said:

It's saying that if you want to work for a living, how on earth can you be beaten to a job if someone without English as their first language, and lesser ability to have contacts, can get those jobs first...

If you are happy to work for less than market value then of course you can get a job more easily. For example. I know what I'm worth in m job. Obviously Id like 20% more a year. Who wouldn't. But I wouldn't take 30% less for the same work. Would you? But I happen to know a Pole who did take that and was very happy to be getting more than when he was in Poland. TBF he returned home last summer after a good 8-9 year of being here. No clue if it was Brexit related.

battered said:

The Poles have pushed that down, for sure.

I didn't realise it was OK for us to be in a race to the bottom. Surely if the Poles were smart they'd charge the same or price beat by a small percentage. No one minds competition. But to undercut the brits by a large percentage 25-40% only serves to ps off indigenous people who've spent years building up their business in the UK with the earnings cut they took to play the long game.

battered said:

But you haven't. It's not zero-sum and there isn't a fixed number of jobs to do. I pointed this out earlier, if you bring in 1000 Poles then they all need somewhere to live, they all need to buy food, they all have cars that need fuel and repairs and they all go to the pub. This keeps the shelf stackers, mechanics, and publicans in business.

I'm not convinced. I can only speak from what I've seen. Firstly there IS a finite number of jobs. 1000 extra poles will need extra housing which we don't exactly have a surplus of (so rents go up) and we aren't building thousands of homes (so no extra work) Food and Fuel I'll accept (though it is interesting that the guys I see in Tescos regularly NEVER pay for the multiple plastic bags they steal) Don't know a single Pole who take their car to a garage. Its always a bodge repair for £20. And remember every one you see on Polish plates isn't paying VED either. (since they aren't registered with the dvla. And they are SUPPOSED to do so after 6 months but they dont) And you wonder about UK insurance too but theres no way of checking. And literally NONE of them go to the Pub. They tend towards drinking/eating at home (Polish beer of course) playing computer games. Last time you saw a group of 5-6 Polish guys in a bar chatting up girls and doing what Brits do?

battered said:

We all know that the average immigrant Pole is more likely to be in work and therefore paying tax to UK govt than the average unskilled Brit.

There we go again with the Brit bashing again. But that's fine isn't it...

///ajd said:

As discussed above:

- the difference in wages is very small in real terms
- there is not a fixed number of jobs; it is misleading to assume there is - you would make completely false deductions from the impact of immigration if you did

- despite the readily available facts above, some still insist on reading it another way. It can hardly be surprising when some start to question the motives or reasons for such "alternative" reasoning.

I know your a mouth piece for Blair, but your wrong!

1) Difference in wages is because poster above mate who hire poles for his farm IS NOT HIRING Brits. So what do the Brits do for work?
2) In my industry we have NOT increased our staff count due to 3.3M coming over from the EU. We haven't seen an increase in demand to that (proportional since obviously they don't all need our services) level
3) Again, Brits bad. Immigrants good. But hey, only people who question immigration are racist yeah? hating White Brits is still racism. (though of course Dianne Abbott would disagree)

battered said:

Read some economics, then you'll see that employment is indeed elastic. Within normal population bounds employment is effectively infinite. Think about it, if you double a population you double the need for housing, cars, food, clothing, house repairs, car repairs, so it goes on. That's twice the jobs, albeit in simplistic terms. Employment and money are not a fixed pot full of stuff.

Keynes went through all this a century ago or more.

You don't understand the practices of a sizeable chunk of low skilled EU immigrants then. By which I mean the ones that are not planning on staying long term in the UK, gaining citizenship etc. And this I believe is probably well over 50-60%. If the work dried up tomorrow they'd be gone by the end of the week.

They aren't out there spending their pay check every month generating income for the country. They are saving it, spending it frugally, and in many cases sending it home. And in some cases I personally know of claiming child tax credits for children not in the UK. Which is partly a government policy failure because we can't be seen to be racist after all even if millions of pounds are leaving our economy...

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 19th February 18:15

You obviously have very strong feelings about Poles.

You are convinced that absolutely none of them go to the pub, take their car to the garage or pay VED.

So they are all breaking the law, basically, in your view?

Sounds like you think they are all inferior to you.

So Rich's well thought through and reasoned responses to battered posts about Polish immigrants becomes 'strong feelings' by Rich_W against Polish immigrants, and makes Rich_W superior to Polish immigrants.

Only you could twist his post like that,so well done

I was trying to be polite.

I haven't twisted anything - its all there.

You were polite in twisting what was stated, and it's what you do so well when someone disagrees with your views.
Many have experienced the same tactic over the last 9/10 months so it's nothing new.

What you see suits your agenda and bias, many others see reasoned responses, it's you that's twisted and bitter, again nothing new.

[qska]

I'm a Polish IT contractor (ahem powerfully built company director).

My Polish neighbour, the geologist working on Crossrail and contracting on oil platforms could disagree.

Also another Pole that lectures on the Oxford University, who was head hunted from the USA...

Another Polish friend the physicist working in Harwell....

Should I go on?

Edited by qska on Sunday 19th February 19:21

[qska]

Yes, plenty of Poles working in lower skilled jobs as well... Enjoy your cheap food. Want to buy a £3 loaf of bread?

[s2art]

qska said:

I'm a Polish IT contractor (powerfully built company director).

My Polish neighbour, the geologist working on Crossrail and contracting on oil platforms could disagree.

Also another Pole that lectures on the Oxford University, who was head hunted from the USA...

Another Polish friend the physicist working in Harwell....

Should I go on?

And you are all very welcome. The problem is really the large number of low skilled immigrants impacting on the bottom 10% or so in the UK workforce.

[qska]

s2art said:

And you are all very welcome. The problem is really the large number of low skilled immigrants impacting on the bottom 10% or so in the UK workforce.

Believe me, they're all peed off about Brexit at the moment...

And yes, I'd have voted Leave as well if I could.

And don't worry, they won't be flooding in shortly, it should answer the pertinent questions empirically.

Oh, I have to go and book my car at the garage for a service....

[davepoth]

qska said:

And yes, I'd have voted Leave as well if I could.

If you don't mind me asking, could you expand on why you would have? It's always interesting to understand a different viewpoint.

[alfie2244]

davepoth said:

qska said:

And yes, I'd have voted Leave as well if I could.

If you don't mind me asking, could you expand on why you would have? It's always interesting to understand a different viewpoint.

+1

[Rich_W]

///ajd said:

You obviously have very strong feelings about Poles.

You are convinced that absolutely none of them go to the pub, take their car to the garage or pay VED.

So they are all breaking the law, basically, in your view?

Sounds like you think they are all inferior to you.

Look I know you're thick.

But can you at least READ WHAT I WROTE

In particular the line

Me said:

I'm not convinced, I can only speak from what I've seen...

And I used "poles" because a) That's the largest demographic of EU Immigrants to the UK and b) because I got lazy and should have written "EU immigrants" instead.

I don't ascribe that they are ALL breaking the law. But not registering your car so you can avoid paying £250 a year VED is taking the piss. Especially since I, and everyone else has to pay it, and it's a good way of marking you out as believing that the rules don't apply to you. And also that you're not planning to stay and thus not integrating by observing OUR laws and customs.

I have to say I don't buy this argument that they all integrate well into society. Sure, they work. But culturally they are surprisingly different, and like the ignorant Brit ExPats in Spain. They do tend to stick to their groups and avoid the local culture.

Example. I have a Lithuanian friend. Completely fluent in English, has a sense of humour and is very attractive She's been here for probably 5-6 years. When she goes out its ALWAYS with her 4 Lithuanian girl-friends. She rarely hangs out with the people from work or Brits in general. (Unless they are buying her expensive drinks at the bar, but that's another story ) Certainly never went to any Xmas parties that I can remember. Is she truly integrated because she works and pays taxes? The group of poles at an old job were very similar. Never really socialized with anyone not Polish. Seems a shame to me.

EDIT TO ADD in 1 POST

qska said:

s2art said:

And you are all very welcome. The problem is really the large number of low skilled immigrants impacting on the bottom 10% or so in the UK workforce.

Believe me, they're all peed off about Brexit at the moment...

And yes, I'd have voted Leave as well if I could.

And don't worry, they won't be flooding in shortly, it should answer the pertinent questions empirically.

Oh, I have to go and book my car at the garage for a service....

I see what you did there

The vast majority of EU immigrants I come into contact with on a daily basis are not like yourself (or your friends) with good jobs. They are car cleaners, and drivers, and labourers and other low skill level jobs.

I can only say what I see. I have to believe (empirically of course ) that the majority of EU Immigrants are at that end of the labour market anyway. If you were working in IT in Poland. I daresay you'd not be inclined to leave for the UK for a slight pay increase? Whereas if you were earning the minimum wage in Poland of 400ish Euros you'd defiantly be more inclined to come to the UK where the streets are paved with Gold and washed in Evian.


Serious question. Do you GSKA feel you are integrated into the UK and our ways? Or do you feel outside or excluded?

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 19th February 19:44

[rscott]

Rich_W said:

rscott said:

...
Based on feedback from a friend who actually owns a large soft fruit producing company, he finds that the Eastern European workforce work harder, more efficiently and with fewer absences that UK staff. He pays a decent wage (more than most supermarkets) plus provides reasonable accommodation and perks for the staff.

So it's fine to say Brits are lazy. But not Immigrants? Id question why he can't get any Brits to work for him if he pays so well. Maybe hes not even selecting them for interview. He's providing accommodation and perks? Do they pay council tax/bills when they stay with him? And yet NO brits want the work? I have in my head a Victorian mill owner type.

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 19th February 18:15

Very few Brits even apply. Part of the issue may be simple geography - his sites are, by their nature, in the middle of nowhere, with little/no public transport. So appeal more to those who would benefit from the accommodation, rather than those who'd have to use public transport to get there. As an example, he's 10 miles from Jaywick (very high unemployment there) but gets no applicants as few have cars and so would have to spend 1.5 hours to get there by public transport ( a 25 mile round trip each way).

[qska]

davepoth said:

If you don't mind me asking, could you expand on why you would have? It's always interesting to understand a different viewpoint.

1. Euro stranglehold in Greece and Spain
2. Refugee fiasco
3. Further erosion of nation states
4. European army in the way...

We really are NOT all the same. Brussels thinks we are. And that somehow Merkel is the boss.

5. Undersupply of housing and services for the CURRENT population, the backlog is huge and needs addressing. Stopping immigration will give us a breather.

Should I go on...?

[alfie2244]

qska said:

davepoth said:

If you don't mind me asking, could you expand on why you would have? It's always interesting to understand a different viewpoint.

1. Euro stranglehold in Greece and Spain
2. Refugee fiasco
3. Further erosion of nation states
4. European army in the way...

We really are NOT all the same. Brussels thinks we are. And that somehow Merkel is the boss.

5. Undersupply of housing and services for the CURRENT population, the backlog is huge and needs addressing. Stopping immigration will give us a breather.

Should I go on...?

No need.....many thanks for a very informative reply.....unlike many you even got a car reference in your earlier post.

[qska]

Rich_W said:

Serious question. Do you GSKA feel you are integrated into the UK and our ways? Or do you feel outside or excluded?

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 19th February 19:44

We're fortunate enough to live in a nice middle class area in Didcot, quite multinational.

14 years ago when we first arrived, our local church took great care of us and showed great hospitality. We learned a lot about the culture this way.

Our friends were showing us all thr PYOs, Saturday coffee mornings and bike rides, and generally invited us to their places.

But again, they were church people.

Now we live in another county (Oxon) and are family people, so the dynamic is different.

My kids have great English, Chinese r and Indian friends. I do a photo stall on the school fete, and we're now campaign against plans for building offices on our local park.

So I guess we're integrated.

But it is not as warm and friendly as it was in Kent all these years ago.

Plus, English are peculiar for themselves as well, like to keep to friends and family, and not necessarily open themselves to newcomers on a social level.

Immigrants have one thing in common - we're bloody lonely to start with, and it's a long way to get grandparents help with the kids.

Our English friends at half term go to see their families, but we're stuffed and stuck.

I'm not complaining by the way - just answering.

Aha - in Poland, IT wages are pretty similar, but we don't have a contract market to speak of. That's the major draw. Having said that, I only know one more Polish IT contractor. And she's a woman!

But, it was different 13 years ago, Poland was quite different then.

We're settled, and appreciate the relatively easy life. The country just works, and doesn't screw its citizens so blatantly as Poland does. Having said that, I feel for millenials and their student loans, combined with outrageously expensive housing. But in Poland we have all that and a scamming mentality added in

[qska]

alfie2244 said:

No need.....many thanks for a very informative reply.....unlike many you even got a car reference in your earlier post.

Oh yeah, there's that.

Cars in LHD are much more expensive and Poland has a mix of very modern smooth as glass, and older moon-like road surfaces.

Add in bitter winters and scorching summers, and motoring in the UK is paradise - like.

I'm now driving a 2010 E350 CDI, that I could never have afforded in Poland.

And if I could, it would be clocked with moon miles, maintained by an ape

Also, we don't have as many B roads that you can enjoy. Most roads are dead straight and very wide. Overtaking on these is very very risky and frequent. Our road casualties are about 3x per citizen.

[Murph7355]

Rich_W said:

Murph7355 said:

It's saying that if you want to work for a living, how on earth can you be beaten to a job if someone without English as their first language, and lesser ability to have contacts, can get those jobs first...

If you are happy to work for less than market value then of course you can get a job more easily. For example. I know what I'm worth in m job. Obviously Id like 20% more a year. Who wouldn't. But I wouldn't take 30% less for the same work. Would you? But I happen to know a Pole who did take that and was very happy to be getting more than when he was in Poland. TBF he returned home last summer after a good 8-9 year of being here. No clue if it was Brexit related.

If the market doesn't support the rate I think I'm worth, then I either take that rate or starve (my personal approach doesn't consider the state as an option....though one hopes the safety net may be there if ever required).

When I first started working for myself I was, to an extent, fixated by rates and never wanting to take a reduction on principle (which sounds akin to what you posted). This was a little silly really as I'd had no such qualms moving between the two permanent jobs I held before that where I did "speculate to accumulate".

Latterly I've been more focused on what I need to live, anything above that being a bonus. Anything below that meaning I need a rethink on what is needed to live! On those grounds I have taken one reduction in rate, the market at the time not supporting my historic rates.

Interestingly both times I've taken an initial hit, the end result has been a marked uptick. The situation may be different in future, but if I keep focusing on working as hard as I can, delivering results and not getting hung up on outright numbers I suspect it will help mitigate that risk.

It's easier to find work when you're in work, I suspect mainly because you can demonstrate actual preparedness to do a job...

[Rich_W]

GSKA

Your experience reminds me of a Serbian guy I know who came over a similar time ago. Good guy and an asset to this country. He told me he now thinks in English. Rather than hears English, translates into Serbian then back into English to answer

qska said:

And if I could, it would be clocked with moon miles, maintained by an ape


...


But in Poland we have all that and a scamming mentality added in

Careful! You can't say that Polish people have anything other than perfect morals and a hard work ethic. AJD and his social justice warriors will seize upon such racism

[alfie2244]

qska said:

alfie2244 said:

No need.....many thanks for a very informative reply.....unlike many you even got a car reference in your earlier post.

Oh yeah, there's that.

Cars in LHD are much more expensive and Poland has a mix of very modern smooth as glass, and older moon-like road surfaces.

Add in bitter winters and scorching summers, and motoring in the UK is paradise - like.

I'm now driving a 2010 E350 CDI, that I could never have afforded in Poland.

And if I could, it would be clocked with moon miles, maintained by an ape

Also, we don't have as many B roads that you can enjoy. Most roads are dead straight and very wide. Overtaking on these is very very risky and frequent. Our road casualties are about 3x per citizen.

Do some of the roads still have 200mm lorry wheel ruts in them? Went to Posnam many years ago and hardly needed to steer for lots of it (1 wheel in and 1 out)..Pain in the butt trying to get out of them to turn off though.

Another memory but I assume it has changed now.......stopping at lights / junctions in larger towns driving a GB car and being surrounded / followed by mopeds.

[qska]

Rich_W said:

Careful! You can't say that Polish people have anything other than perfect morals and a hard work ethic. AJD and his social justice warriors will seize upon such racism

I can. They're awful racists, the lot of them.

The nationalism combined with catholicism is something that developed when i didn't live there, but I find these news very very disturbing.

Work ethic is fine when they need money, but give them some comfort and they'll quickly turn lazy as well.

We're just people, product of nature and nurture. And we adapt quickly. I mean the ones who actually emigrate, thats a big test in itself. The not so adventurous ones just stay.

We're also torn between Russian and German ways of thinking. Very proud but at the same time, with a chip on a shoulder. I can't explain better, just thinking about it makes my head spin

We're upfront like Russians but envy the, Germans their efficiency and processes.

Plus we're the Chosen nation on various levels... Confused yet? I am!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that putting a million people into one category is not a good idea.

[qska]

alfie2244 said:

Do some of the roads still have 200mm lorry wheel ruts in them? Went to Posnam many years ago and hardly needed to steer for lots of it (1 wheel in and 1 out)..Pain in the butt trying to get out of them to turn off though.

Another memory but I assume it has changed now.......stopping at lights / junctions in larger towns driving a GB car and being surrounded / followed by mopeds.

I think less so nowadays. Lots of very good A roads now.

The latter - I think you need to visit again. You'll be mighty surprised how we came along.

Be warned - you'll miss UK repeater signals, find yourself craning your neck at junctions.

[Rich_W]

qska said:

developed when i didn't live there,

This is interesting to me. Thinking back to the various Poles/EU Nationals I've met. (Sorry AJD cant talk for everyone) The ones that have been here 12-15 years (was it 03 it became "a thing" ) are far better integrated than anyone who came in the last 6-10 years. Who IME tend to have a different (re: worse) attitude.

I hesitate to use the phrase first and second generation of immigration since they are all between 20-45, but there does seem to be a difference.