"No more Polish vermin"

[Digga]

rscott said:

Robertj21a said:

And yet, the country (as a whole) has relatively low unemployment rates. Perhaps, if recruiting staff becomes more difficult for some employers the more enlightened ones may finally recognise the potential for locating more operations in Middlesbrough, Grimsby, Aberdare etc.

That's only possible if the infrastructure is in place to support it. The highest unemployment blackspot in my part of Essex is Harwich and will remain that way until the road network is improved drastically.
Several manufacturing and industrial companies have considered it as a new site but all ruled it out, mainly because the main road linking it to the rest of the road network (the A120) is single carriageway all the way to Colchester. It's regularly congested due to accidents or issues at the ports so is a major disincentive to investment.
The only plan to dual it relies on Hutchinson paying for it in return for upgrading their operations Felixstowe and Harwich, something which isn't likely to happen for decades.

Excellent point. Infrastructure is key not only to opening up economically underactive regions, but also utilising redundant housing stock to ease the price and supply issues.

[Pan Pan Pan]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Here in West London we have a large Polish and the Polish war Memorial. We didn't complain then did we, when a previous generation of Polish young men came to Britain to fight with the RAF and help defeat the Nazis.

Yet it seems it is Ok for some to complain about, and call for the banning of the democratically elected president of the US coming to the UK.
We didn't hear any complaints, and calls for bans when the US helped us to defeat Nazi Germany. Some people have the memory of a goldfish it seems.

[rscott]

Funkycoldribena said:

Mrr T said:

I am always fascinated by responses like this. I can see the poster purple in face hammering the keys.

Let’s deal with the points one by one.

Housing Crisis
If there was a housing crisis people would be sleeping in the streets. The waiting lists for public housing are only long because they accept ever application no matter the merits of the case. Look at what Westminster did to their lis. Yes there are people who would like to buy a house and cannot. That’s not a crisis.

Snipped.
Are you having a giraffe?
Come out from behind your gates and have a look.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38157410
(The bbc,because I know you trust them.)

Yet there are over 200,000 houses in the UK which have been empty for over 6 months... ( source - http://www.emptyhomes.com/ ).

Isn't part of the problem that developers are building the wrong sort of houses? There's a massive demand for smaller properties (£150,000-200,000) for first & second time buyers in my part of the UK (Essex/Suffolk border), yet the typical property being built around here goes on the market for nearer £500,000 and is a large, 5 or 6 bedroom place..

[del mar]

Nobody likes the poles !!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4281012/Mu...

[speedyman]

Funkycoldribena said:

Mrr T said:

I am always fascinated by responses like this. I can see the poster purple in face hammering the keys.

Let’s deal with the points one by one.

Housing Crisis
If there was a housing crisis people would be sleeping in the streets. The waiting lists for public housing are only long because they accept ever application no matter the merits of the case. Look at what Westminster did to their lis. Yes there are people who would like to buy a house and cannot. That’s not a crisis.

Council band applicants are based on need, (from the Gov web site) Points and bands are based on housing need. For example, you’re likely to be offered housing first if you:

are homeless
live in cramped conditions
have a medical condition made worse by your current home

Once you’re high enough on the list, your council will contact you about an available property. People in these groups are still waiting many years to get a place. Meanwhile temp. accomadation or bed and breakfast costs are more than mortgages. I call that a crisis.

[Mrr T]

speedyman said:

Mrr T said:

I am always fascinated by responses like this. I can see the poster purple in face hammering the keys.

Let’s deal with the points one by one.

Housing Crisis
If there was a housing crisis people would be sleeping in the streets. The waiting lists for public housing are only long because they accept ever application no matter the merits of the case. Look at what Westminster did to their lis. Yes there are people who would like to buy a house and cannot. That’s not a crisis.

Council band applicants are based on need, (from the Gov web site) Points and bands are based on housing need. For example, you’re likely to be offered housing first if you:

are homeless
live in cramped conditions
have a medical condition made worse by your current home

Once you’re high enough on the list, your council will contact you about an available property. People in these groups are still waiting many years to get a place. Meanwhile temp. accomadation or bed and breakfast costs are more than mortgages. I call that a crisis.

Just because someone is on a council housing waiting list does not mean you are homeless. You maybe want a bigger house, a house in a different area. If you look at what Basildon Council did they slashed the list by reassessing people. This removed many from the list but many other just dropped off the list. The fact is most councils could do that but chose not to.

The other issue with council housing is that you never have to leave, in some circumstance you can either pass it on. So you have people who could easily buy or rent in the private sector blocking movement.

Crisis what crisis.

[battered]

Digga said:

rscott said:

Robertj21a said:

And yet, the country (as a whole) has relatively low unemployment rates. Perhaps, if recruiting staff becomes more difficult for some employers the more enlightened ones may finally recognise the potential for locating more operations in Middlesbrough, Grimsby, Aberdare etc.

That's only possible if the infrastructure is in place to support it. The highest unemployment blackspot in my part of Essex is Harwich and will remain that way until the road network is improved drastically.
Several manufacturing and industrial companies have considered it as a new site but all ruled it out, mainly because the main road linking it to the rest of the road network (the A120) is single carriageway all the way to Colchester. It's regularly congested due to accidents or issues at the ports so is a major disincentive to investment.
The only plan to dual it relies on Hutchinson paying for it in return for upgrading their operations Felixstowe and Harwich, something which isn't likely to happen for decades.

Excellent point. Infrastructure is key not only to opening up economically underactive regions, but also utilising redundant housing stock to ease the price and supply issues.

The "infrastructure" line is too often used as a cop-out. It's almost as worn out as the "I don't have the resources" line at work, or "It's elf and safety innit?"
I heard it recently to oppose a housing development between Leeds and Bradford. Oh yes, no infrastructure. In between 2 cities with populations of 500k and 250k each. How many schools in the area? Hospitals? Only the LGI, Jimmy's and BRI, with Huddersfield and Wakey not far. Only 2 railway stations within a mile? A whole 4 miles from the M62, M621, M606 you say? Oh yes, no infrastructure. Meanwhile Londoners are standing upon each other's heads. 9 times out of 10 I don't buy the "no infrastructure" line. Hull is short of jobs, so is Grimsby. Both of them are near ferry ports, motorways, an airport, so it goes on. We live in the UK, not the third world. So please, if you are going to play the "infrastructure" card then show your working. Maybe the traffic situation is bad enough around Harwich to preclude the expansion of the port, if so then either price a new road or ship it from somewhere else. However without the working I'll assume that the "infrastructure" card is just a cop-out, because it usually is.

[davepoth]

jjlynn27 said:

Read that article that you've linked till the end. We can all make up scenarios but it adds very little to the debate.

I did, and the author drew broadly similar conclusions from the circumstantial evidence available. Your point?

[Digga]

battered said:

The "infrastructure" line is too often used as a cop-out. It's almost as worn out as the "I don't have the resources" line at work, or "It's elf and safety innit?"
I heard it recently to oppose a housing development between Leeds and Bradford. Oh yes, no infrastructure. In between 2 cities with populations of 500k and 250k each. How many schools in the area? Hospitals? Only the LGI, Jimmy's and BRI, with Huddersfield and Wakey not far. Only 2 railway stations within a mile? A whole 4 miles from the M62, M621, M606 you say? Oh yes, no infrastructure. Meanwhile Londoners are standing upon each other's heads. 9 times out of 10 I don't buy the "no infrastructure" line. Hull is short of jobs, so is Grimsby. Both of them are near ferry ports, motorways, an airport, so it goes on. We live in the UK, not the third world. So please, if you are going to play the "infrastructure" card then show your working. Maybe the traffic situation is bad enough around Harwich to preclude the expansion of the port, if so then either price a new road or ship it from somewhere else. However without the working I'll assume that the "infrastructure" card is just a cop-out, because it usually is.

there is a growing and chronic north-south divide on the M1 and M6 motorways. Places like Hull suffer as a result.

[Robertj21a]

Digga said:

here is a growing and chronic north-south divide on the M1 and M6 motorways. Places like Hull suffer as a result.

Sorry if I'm just being thick but I don't actually understand what you're saying.

[rscott]

battered said:

Digga said:

rscott said:

Robertj21a said:

And yet, the country (as a whole) has relatively low unemployment rates. Perhaps, if recruiting staff becomes more difficult for some employers the more enlightened ones may finally recognise the potential for locating more operations in Middlesbrough, Grimsby, Aberdare etc.

That's only possible if the infrastructure is in place to support it. The highest unemployment blackspot in my part of Essex is Harwich and will remain that way until the road network is improved drastically.
Several manufacturing and industrial companies have considered it as a new site but all ruled it out, mainly because the main road linking it to the rest of the road network (the A120) is single carriageway all the way to Colchester. It's regularly congested due to accidents or issues at the ports so is a major disincentive to investment.
The only plan to dual it relies on Hutchinson paying for it in return for upgrading their operations Felixstowe and Harwich, something which isn't likely to happen for decades.

Excellent point. Infrastructure is key not only to opening up economically underactive regions, but also utilising redundant housing stock to ease the price and supply issues.

The "infrastructure" line is too often used as a cop-out. It's almost as worn out as the "I don't have the resources" line at work, or "It's elf and safety innit?"
I heard it recently to oppose a housing development between Leeds and Bradford. Oh yes, no infrastructure. In between 2 cities with populations of 500k and 250k each. How many schools in the area? Hospitals? Only the LGI, Jimmy's and BRI, with Huddersfield and Wakey not far. Only 2 railway stations within a mile? A whole 4 miles from the M62, M621, M606 you say? Oh yes, no infrastructure. Meanwhile Londoners are standing upon each other's heads. 9 times out of 10 I don't buy the "no infrastructure" line. Hull is short of jobs, so is Grimsby. Both of them are near ferry ports, motorways, an airport, so it goes on. We live in the UK, not the third world. So please, if you are going to play the "infrastructure" card then show your working. Maybe the traffic situation is bad enough around Harwich to preclude the expansion of the port, if so then either price a new road or ship it from somewhere else. However without the working I'll assume that the "infrastructure" card is just a cop-out, because it usually is.

The A120 is single carriageway for 12 miles - most of the way to the A12 for Colchester/Ipswich/civilisation.. It's regularly blocked by accidents but there's no money to improve it.
Several importers have decided against Harwich for this one reason alone - one of which I worked with.

Unfortunately unemployment isn't quite bad enough to qualify for extra state funds, although if one or two more companies close, it might be.

Tendring Council have made it a planning condition of the port expansion that the operator pay for it. That immediately renders any expansion unlikely..

[Rich_W]

Pan Pan Pan said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Here in West London we have a large Polish and the Polish war Memorial. We didn't complain then did we, when a previous generation of Polish young men came to Britain to fight with the RAF and help defeat the Nazis.

Yet it seems it is Ok for some to complain about, and call for the banning of the democratically elected president of the US coming to the UK.
We didn't hear any complaints, and calls for bans when the US helped us to defeat Nazi Germany. Some people have the memory of a goldfish it seems.

Devils advocate maybe. But were the Poles in anyway capable of defending themselves without our help and resources? This doesn't strike me as some selfless trade by them volunteering to come over and help. They NEEDED it, and we as allies, quite rightly helped them.

[Jonesy23]

Strictly speaking by the time they volunteered they were well past the point of defending themselves as they'd been successfully invaded.

It was a case of refugees trying to recover their homeland from a brutal occupation.

It can't be dressed up as a selfless act of people volunteering to help the UK just because it was a 'good fight' against the Nazis, and pretending it was does a disservice to those involved.

[pim]

Infrastructure is important more so in a port.A example castle street Hull.A bottle neck for more than twenty years to the docks.

Labour/Conservative both useless regarding upgrading.First a tunnel to be build the grant plan.That has been kicked into touch.Instead a 7 meter dip in the road in a flood area.

Drawings and planning send around the public again.Everybody knows what needs doing get on with it.Hopefully starting next year on the upgrade.It is going to take 4 years.Beggars belief.No wonder we lost our industries with so many comedians walking about deciding Infrastructure.

[Digga]

Robertj21a said:

Digga said:

here is a growing and chronic north-south divide on the M1 and M6 motorways. Places like Hull suffer as a result.

Sorry if I'm just being thick but I don't actually understand what you're saying.

I'm afraid to say I think you are being thick, or obtuse, either way I can't help you. If you want to learn something, Google for "M1 closed" or "M6 closed". HTH

[Murph7355]

rscott said:

The A120 is single carriageway for 12 miles - most of the way to the A12 for Colchester/Ipswich/civilisation.. It's regularly blocked by accidents but there's no money to improve it.
Several importers have decided against Harwich for this one reason alone - one of which I worked with.

Unfortunately unemployment isn't quite bad enough to qualify for extra state funds, although if one or two more companies close, it might be.

Tendring Council have made it a planning condition of the port expansion that the operator pay for it. That immediately renders any expansion unlikely..

AIUI there are plans afoot to improve that link (and it is needed). Though it will likely take a decade to resolve

[Murph7355]

battered said:

The "infrastructure" line is too often used as a cop-out. It's almost as worn out as the "I don't have the resources" line at work, or "It's elf and safety innit?"
I heard it recently to oppose a housing development between Leeds and Bradford. Oh yes, no infrastructure. In between 2 cities with populations of 500k and 250k each. How many schools in the area? Hospitals? Only the LGI, Jimmy's and BRI, with Huddersfield and Wakey not far. Only 2 railway stations within a mile? A whole 4 miles from the M62, M621, M606 you say? Oh yes, no infrastructure. Meanwhile Londoners are standing upon each other's heads. 9 times out of 10 I don't buy the "no infrastructure" line. Hull is short of jobs, so is Grimsby. Both of them are near ferry ports, motorways, an airport, so it goes on. We live in the UK, not the third world. So please, if you are going to play the "infrastructure" card then show your working. Maybe the traffic situation is bad enough around Harwich to preclude the expansion of the port, if so then either price a new road or ship it from somewhere else. However without the working I'll assume that the "infrastructure" card is just a cop-out, because it usually is.

Something like 6x the amount per capita is spent on transport infrastructure in London than in the north. And as an infrequent user of the roads you note I wouldn't say they're a shining example of quality infrastructure.

The ferry and air ports in that region will only be usable if the rest of the infrastructure is supportive. Too often we do not have an integrated view on infrastructure in this country.

I'd allow serious regional variation in business taxation etc to encourage employment moves elsewhere.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Rich_W said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Here in West London we have a large Polish and the Polish war Memorial. We didn't complain then did we, when a previous generation of Polish young men came to Britain to fight with the RAF and help defeat the Nazis.

Yet it seems it is Ok for some to complain about, and call for the banning of the democratically elected president of the US coming to the UK.
We didn't hear any complaints, and calls for bans when the US helped us to defeat Nazi Germany. Some people have the memory of a goldfish it seems.

Devils advocate maybe. But were the Poles in anyway capable of defending themselves without our help and resources? This doesn't strike me as some selfless trade by them volunteering to come over and help. They NEEDED it, and we as allies, quite rightly helped them.

To be fair it did seem as though many European countries left Poland in the lurch, and did nothing when Hitler invaded Poland, and subsequently later in the war, when Poles rose up against the occupying Nazis in the belief that the Allies would soon be liberating their country earlier than was actually the case, only to be smacked down by the Nazis.
It is understandable that those Poles who managed to make it to the UK would want to fight back in any way they could, And they did, (with interest) What The UK did was survive against Hitler long enough to give many in that situation the chance to fight back, even the ungrateful DeGaulle, who without the UK, would have been pushing up daisies virtually from the start of WW2.

[rscott]

Murph7355 said:

rscott said:

The A120 is single carriageway for 12 miles - most of the way to the A12 for Colchester/Ipswich/civilisation.. It's regularly blocked by accidents but there's no money to improve it.
Several importers have decided against Harwich for this one reason alone - one of which I worked with.

Unfortunately unemployment isn't quite bad enough to qualify for extra state funds, although if one or two more companies close, it might be.

Tendring Council have made it a planning condition of the port expansion that the operator pay for it. That immediately renders any expansion unlikely..

AIUI there are plans afoot to improve that link (and it is needed). Though it will likely take a decade to resolve

Yep, there are plans, but at the moment the funding source is the S106 agreement with Hutchinson for the Bathside Bay port expansion down at Harwich.. Something they're not doing just yet.

The other end of the A120 is also due for complete replacement between Braintree and the A12.

[battered]

The debate over roads like the A120 illustrates that any project has to be taken on its own merits. If someone says "This won't work because XYZ road isn't big enough" or similar then it's more likely to be credible than a blanket "no infrastructure" that just sounds like nimbyism. The areas where immigration has caused hardship are where it's excessive *within an area*, like, say, Boston, Lincs. Similar numbers of E Euro nationals have pitched up in Leeds, Bradford, other cities, and they have been absorbed and integrated very well. Somewhere like Grimsby could soak up thousands - housing is cheap and available, there are schools and hospitals, and empty factories. Put the jobs there and they will come. As for roads, the M180 runs right into the place, access to A1/M18/M62 etc, DC all the way to the industrial areas. Port of Hull is just over the bridge. Same goes for all the grotty towns along the '62, a modest tax break would get the employers in the place.