Positivity - The Future
Discussion
Mrr T said:
lostkiwi said:
Mrr T said:
TeamD said:
All EU nationals currently working in the UK and contributing to the economy to be given permanent leave to remain. This would go some way towards countering the accusations of racism and xenophobia and would squarely put the ball in the EUs court as to how they should move forwards in a constructive manner. Tantrums will not wash, we have to all behave like adults, no matter our thoughts on the matter.
A small technical problem with your plan is that EU immigrants cannot apply for indefinite leave to remain. Any other plans from team Leave?https://www.gov.uk/browse/visas-immigration/eu-eea...
As an EU citizen you CANNOT apply for indefinite leave to remain.
You can apply for a residency certificate or after 5 years residence (3 if married to a UK citizen) citizenship.
Not the bit that says you must usually have ILTR before applying for citizenship. Citizenship by its nature gives ILTR remain anyway.
Timmy40 said:
JawKnee said:
I'd like us to remain part of the common market for the sake ok UK Business with the continuation of freedom of movement, probably through joining Schengen.
Technical point of order. Norway are in the Common Market but not the EU. But have achieved that through allowing free movement of labour AND agreeing to all EU rules. Not much point leaving the EU if we end up having to agree to all the rules that the French and Germans will now make without even asking us?
JawKnee said:
Timmy40 said:
JawKnee said:
I'd like us to remain part of the common market for the sake ok UK Business with the continuation of freedom of movement, probably through joining Schengen.
Technical point of order. Norway are in the Common Market but not the EU. But have achieved that through allowing free movement of labour AND agreeing to all EU rules. Not much point leaving the EU if we end up having to agree to all the rules that the French and Germans will now make without even asking us?
Murph7355 said:
If you can provide any good arguments to support the case of freedom of movement of people and Schengen I would genuinely love to hear them. Excluding "because they would give us access to the common market".
Easy;Free movement (EU Only):
1. Has contributed to UK economic growth over the last few years.
2. Needed because of UK demographics.
3. A market solution, limited benefits so essential to get a job in order to afford to stay.
4. Close cultural ties.
Schengen (Main land EU only)
1. It really does not matter the EU countries cannot control their borders they are to long.
2. Even when border controls existed on major roads you could just walk 500m and cross without any check.
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
If you can provide any good arguments to support the case of freedom of movement of people and Schengen I would genuinely love to hear them. Excluding "because they would give us access to the common market".
Easy;Free movement (EU Only):
1. Has contributed to UK economic growth over the last few years.
2. Needed because of UK demographics.
3. A market solution, limited benefits so essential to get a job in order to afford to stay.
4. Close cultural ties.
Schengen (Main land EU only)
1. It really does not matter the EU countries cannot control their borders they are to long.
2. Even when border controls existed on major roads you could just walk 500m and cross without any check.
Mrr T said:
Easy;
Free movement (EU Only):
1. Has contributed to UK economic growth over the last few years. Cannot be proven we wouldn't have been better off with controlled immigration. Less car cleaners/flower sellers, more teachers, doctors, nurses, carers?
2. Needed because of UK demographics. Controlled immigration would be just as capable of achieving this as and when required
3. A market solution, limited benefits so essential to get a job in order to afford to stay. Proof? As a market solution it only appears to depress wages (in the economically stronger countries). Whether that's a good thing depends on your point of view I suspect
4. Close cultural ties. Hmmm. Not sure controlled immigration precludes that
Schengen (Main land EU only JawKnee was referring to us joining...)
1. It really does not matter the EU countries cannot control their borders they are to long. That's not a strong argument - "it's too hard so we won't bother and will look the other way"
2. Even when border controls existed on major roads you could just walk 500m and cross without any check. And this just compounds it. Though at least anyone crossing without Schengen/free movement of people is then an illegal and can be dealt with (if found)
Or not...Free movement (EU Only):
1. Has contributed to UK economic growth over the last few years. Cannot be proven we wouldn't have been better off with controlled immigration. Less car cleaners/flower sellers, more teachers, doctors, nurses, carers?
2. Needed because of UK demographics. Controlled immigration would be just as capable of achieving this as and when required
3. A market solution, limited benefits so essential to get a job in order to afford to stay. Proof? As a market solution it only appears to depress wages (in the economically stronger countries). Whether that's a good thing depends on your point of view I suspect
4. Close cultural ties. Hmmm. Not sure controlled immigration precludes that
Schengen (Main land EU only JawKnee was referring to us joining...)
1. It really does not matter the EU countries cannot control their borders they are to long. That's not a strong argument - "it's too hard so we won't bother and will look the other way"
2. Even when border controls existed on major roads you could just walk 500m and cross without any check. And this just compounds it. Though at least anyone crossing without Schengen/free movement of people is then an illegal and can be dealt with (if found)
el stovey said:
vonuber said:
Surely we just need to go invade somewhere? Isn't that what we used to do?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/hong-kong-democracy-campaigners-demand-return-to-british-rule-as/No need to invade, some of these former colonies actually want back.
TeamD said:
don4l said:
I must say that I find it reassuring to be called "thick" by anyone who could write the above.
Can we leave the arguing for the plethora of other threads please Don, I'm trying to move on here and whilst you may not agree with the contribution made by PositronicRay at least he has acknowledged that we are where we are and further strife will only damage our country. Not that there have not been strong words traded from either side of the debate but we must now look to the future. Cheers,
Steve
The first to go would be the European Water Framework directive. It has caused flooding and great devastation to wildlife.
Next up would be the WEEE directive. It looks great on paper, but in practice it achieves nothing and is a burden on business.
All the climate change nonsense should be chucked out the window ASAP.
The landfill/waste laws are suitable for the low countries, but they are monumentally stupid for us.
The problem is that our spineless political class won't do any of the above.
I think that it is great that we voted to leave, but I don't think that much will change. Still, we should be £10Bn a year better off.
Timmy40 said:
There are over 1 billion subjects in the empire commonwealth and it's time we sat at the table on equal terms with the Americans and Chinese as the head of that billion souls.
Mocking aside - it wouldn't do any harm to secure some trade deals with the larger commonwealth countries before going back to Merkel and the EU.don4l said:
My view is that we should start to untangle ourselves from many European Directives at the earliest possible opportunity.
The first to go would be the European Water Framework directive. It has caused flooding and great devastation to wildlife.
Next up would be the WEEE directive. It looks great on paper, but in practice it achieves nothing and is a burden on business.
All the climate change nonsense should be chucked out the window ASAP.
The landfill/waste laws are suitable for the low countries, but they are monumentally stupid for us.
The problem is that our spineless political class won't do any of the above.
I think that it is great that we voted to leave, but I don't think that much will change. Still, we should be £10Bn a year better off.
Sadly the UK version of the climate change nonsense is much more stupid that the EU version. I'll put money on none of that stuff you listed being repealed. The first to go would be the European Water Framework directive. It has caused flooding and great devastation to wildlife.
Next up would be the WEEE directive. It looks great on paper, but in practice it achieves nothing and is a burden on business.
All the climate change nonsense should be chucked out the window ASAP.
The landfill/waste laws are suitable for the low countries, but they are monumentally stupid for us.
The problem is that our spineless political class won't do any of the above.
I think that it is great that we voted to leave, but I don't think that much will change. Still, we should be £10Bn a year better off.
Timmy40 said:
There are over 1 billion subjects in the empire commonwealth and it's time we sat at the table on equal terms with the Americans and Chinese as the head of that billion souls.
As HEAD of that billion souls? Some little bit of arrogance there methinks. Those souls were cast adrift by the UK in 1973 and left to fend for themselves. They have made a go of it and are now strong vibrant economies. To expect them to welcome the UK back to head them up is a little far fetched. I can't see the Aussies standing for it. lostkiwi said:
Timmy40 said:
There are over 1 billion subjects in the empire commonwealth and it's time we sat at the table on equal terms with the Americans and Chinese as the head of that billion souls.
As HEAD of that billion souls? Some little bit of arrogance there methinks. Those souls were cast adrift by the UK in 1973 and left to fend for themselves. They have made a go of it and are now strong vibrant economies. To expect them to welcome the UK back to head them up is a little far fetched. I can't see the Aussies standing for it. Murph7355 said:
Mrr T said:
Easy;
Free movement (EU Only):
1. Has contributed to UK economic growth over the last few years. Cannot be proven we wouldn't have been better off with controlled immigration. Less car cleaners/flower sellers, more teachers, doctors, nurses, carers?
2. Needed because of UK demographics. Controlled immigration would be just as capable of achieving this as and when required
3. A market solution, limited benefits so essential to get a job in order to afford to stay. Proof? As a market solution it only appears to depress wages (in the economically stronger countries). Whether that's a good thing depends on your point of view I suspect
4. Close cultural ties. Hmmm. Not sure controlled immigration precludes that
Schengen (Main land EU only JawKnee was referring to us joining...)
1. It really does not matter the EU countries cannot control their borders they are to long. That's not a strong argument - "it's too hard so we won't bother and will look the other way"
2. Even when border controls existed on major roads you could just walk 500m and cross without any check. And this just compounds it. Though at least anyone crossing without Schengen/free movement of people is then an illegal and can be dealt with (if found)
Or not...Free movement (EU Only):
1. Has contributed to UK economic growth over the last few years. Cannot be proven we wouldn't have been better off with controlled immigration. Less car cleaners/flower sellers, more teachers, doctors, nurses, carers?
2. Needed because of UK demographics. Controlled immigration would be just as capable of achieving this as and when required
3. A market solution, limited benefits so essential to get a job in order to afford to stay. Proof? As a market solution it only appears to depress wages (in the economically stronger countries). Whether that's a good thing depends on your point of view I suspect
4. Close cultural ties. Hmmm. Not sure controlled immigration precludes that
Schengen (Main land EU only JawKnee was referring to us joining...)
1. It really does not matter the EU countries cannot control their borders they are to long. That's not a strong argument - "it's too hard so we won't bother and will look the other way"
2. Even when border controls existed on major roads you could just walk 500m and cross without any check. And this just compounds it. Though at least anyone crossing without Schengen/free movement of people is then an illegal and can be dealt with (if found)
Free movement (EU Only):
1. Why cleaners and flower seller? You do know the rest of the EU (particularly the eastern bit) have excellent schools and universities. I hope you also realise only the cleaners and flower sellers are going to contribute to the tax system, teachers, doctors, and nurses only do so very indirectly. You need more of the former to employ more of the latter.
2. You really believe a system of controlled immigration run by a government would work?
3. No evidence, employment rate is increasing, job vacancies remain health, and real wages are rising.
4. In which case you do not under stand how the Australian system works.
Schengen
Yes I realised JawKnee had suggested the UK joining which I agree is mad. My point is controlling internal EU borders is far to expensive. Finally I assume you refer to non EU citizens crossing EU borders. The term illegal means very little in legal trems because crossing a border without permission in not a crime. Indeed, some my have a perfectly legal right to enter. I prefer the term irregular immigrants its more correct.
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