Would you change your Ref vote if you could go back time?

Would you change your Ref vote if you could go back time?

Poll: Would you change your Ref vote if you could go back time?

Total Members Polled: 819

No - voted Leave, def still would: 53%
No - voted Remain, def still would: 36%
Yes - voted Leave, would change to Remain: 4%
Yes - voted Remain, would change to Leave: 2%
Didn't vote - would vote Leave now: 1%
Didn't vote - would vote Remain now: 2%
Didn't vote - still wouldn't vote: 2%
Author
Discussion

oyster

12,577 posts

247 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
sealtt said:
I'd love to hear from someone who voted Remain but would change their mind to Leave.

Fully understand the logic of leavers staying leave and retainers staying remain, even leavers turning remain makes sense due to all the negative effects of leave being reported, but what's the logic of originally voting remain but wanting to change to leave? There has not been any positive campaigning about leave since the day of the vote, just negative news stories.
1. CMD has resigned.
2. Fall-out hasn't been as bad as feared.
3. Own lots of gold.

There's 3 reasons potentially.

vsonix

3,858 posts

162 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Didn't vote before, actually leaning towards Leave now. Although I find it quite hard agreeing with the loony racists, the pure antidemocracy of upset Remainers sharing inphographics about how it's OK to annul a euro referendum because there is plenty of precedent of them being quashed in the past simply proves to me just how so many supposed 'liberals' would rather trade pure democracy for empty proises and forcing outers round to their way of thinking. I'm actually pretty disgusted by the behaviour of many remainers. Considering I leaned towards 'Remain' to begin with, even I am quite surprised just how effectively they've discouraged me from agreeing with them!

NRS

22,080 posts

200 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Mario149 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Dictators never like it when their minions show some courage, and refuse to do what they are told, so we have to expect some hard times imposed artificially by the dictators.
A Brussels EU official angry with the result, said that the UK will be made to pay for having the temerity to vote leave. The great thing was that his attitude, and comments demonstrated EXACTLY why the UK voted to leave the EU.
I don't have a problem with the EU trying to shaft us. It's natural, they need to look after themselves. To think otherwise is unwise. If Scotland had decided to leave the UK the other year, we would have done our best to take them to the cleaners as well. It's how it all works, even if it's not very "nice". And it's also and obvious reason why it's better to stay together, you don't have to compete, you pool resources and kick ass together.
That would be all well and good if it had no effect on the EU countries. However it clearly does, as shown by the (larger) effects on EU country markets. Thus it appears they may be going down the road of screwing us to teach us a lesson, even to the detriment of their own people. That is what I have an issue with.

The problem is the EU has lost touch with so many people it represents. By living in a big village together that takes the people who like the EU (those are the ones that will apply for jobs there) it creates a massive "we're doing the right thing" culture since everyone thinks similarly. The problem is that is not the way a large percentage of normal people who live in the EU think, and hence the shock at the Brexit decision. When you're always being reminded what a good job you are doing then it is a shock when you find out the majority/ a lot of people don't agree. Hence the risk of extremism across Europe as people look to other options since they feel they are not represented or being looked after by those in power.

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
vsonix said:
Didn't vote before, actually leaning towards Leave now. Although I find it quite hard agreeing with the loony racists, the pure antidemocracy of upset Remainers sharing inphographics about how it's OK to annul a euro referendum because there is plenty of precedent of them being quashed in the past simply proves to me just how so many supposed 'liberals' would rather trade pure democracy for empty proises and forcing outers round to their way of thinking. I'm actually pretty disgusted by the behaviour of many remainers. Considering I leaned towards 'Remain' to begin with, even I am quite surprised just how effectively they've discouraged me from agreeing with them!
Presumably the anti democracy sorn by Farage before the result also disgusted you then?

On that point bother sides are as bad as each other.

ATG

20,485 posts

271 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
dandarez said:
ATG said:
Jonesy23 said:
Zippee said:
It's for reasons such as this that I think we should never have had a referendum, way too important a subject to leave to people who haven't a clue to decide.
And yet the same method is used to choose MPs!
No we don't. Parliamentary elections are completely different than referenda.

You elect an MP on the understanding that the MP will use their own judgement when voting on legislation in Parliament. You are putting your trust in their judgement.

In a referendum Joe Public are making a specific decision. But what actually happens is that it becomes a popularity contest. It becomes an opportunity for a protest vote and a vote of no confidence. That's why referenda are such an astonishingly bad idea if the specific question is really important, because the specific question usually doesn't determine how people vote.
But if we'd voted Remain, you would not be saying any of this would you?

What's really important is why you were not jumping up and down 'prior' to the referendum shouting it's an astonishingly bad idea, 'STOP THE REFERENDUM!' 'IT MUST BE HALTED FORTHWITH!'

But you didn't, did you?

Accept it.
I sort of wish Remain had won now. I'd have accepted it and got on with my life. The same as I have always done.

You have to accept in life that obstacles appear, things don't always go the way you want them.
Move on.
I have always thought this referendum was a dangerously stupid idea. How on earth do you think you're in a position to say that I didn't?

If we'd voted Remain, would you expect the Leave camp to have said "OK, we're reconciled to remaining in the EU?". I wouldn't. And why should they? Democracy doesn't mean we can only discuss and vote on issues once.

afrochicken

1,166 posts

208 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
andy_s said:
afrochicken said:
andy_s said:
Turnout
18-24: 36%
25-34: 58%
35-44: 72%
45-54: 75%
55-64: 81%
65+: 83%
That turnout stat is being posted in nearly every referendum thread, but it's leaving out the following;

"Sky isn't claiming this is collected data - it's projected, and a subsequent tweet said it was based on "9+/10 certainty to vote, usually/always votes, voted/ineligible at GE2015". I've asked for more information on what this means, but for now it's enough to say it's nothing more than a guess."

The Yougov poll gives the following



That suggests 88% turnout among 18-24. However, it's a sample of 1652 people. Both are just guesses, but at least the Yougov isn't a guess based on projected data. I think it's wrong to keep repeating the 36& turnout stat when we have no idea what the true figure is.

Not that anyone will stop saying it, of course.
Fair one, I was looking around for another source and although there are graphs in FT, Graunad et al showing vote by wealth, education, location, job and any combination of the above, I couldn't find anything definitive on age vs turnout. Interesting.
That's the trouble isn't it- we have no good sources of data for the things we'd be interested in knowing.

I deleted my post (you must have been like a ninja in quoting it!!) as I realised that I posted the wrong poll- that was from before the referendum so must have intentions and not reality. I saw something similar for turnout, but I can't find it. I must have dreamed it! Apologies for the incorrect data

Crumpet

3,877 posts

179 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
There was a while on Friday where I thought the country had made a terrible decision (with me also voting for it). In the days since then the more I've read and researched the more I'm convinced we've made the right decision. I would definitely vote leave again. But for me the economy took second place to my feelings about the direction the EU is heading and the way it is run. Immigration didn't even come into the decision for me.

I do wonder as well whether JC Junkers simply doesn't understand how people can be so patriotic of their country and so keen to maintain sovereignty. He's from a tiny country with very little of its own identity, very little clout on the world stage and no history to speak of as a major global power. It's a lot easier for him to identify as European over his own nationality than it is for the British, French and Germans. He's still a though!

motco

15,919 posts

245 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Crumpet said:
There was a while on Friday where I thought the country had made a terrible decision (with me also voting for it). In the days since then the more I've read and researched the more I'm convinced we've made the right decision. I would definitely vote leave again. But for me the economy took second place to my feelings about the direction the EU is heading and the way it is run. Immigration didn't even come into the decision for me.
Pretty well my view.

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Mark Benson said:
Mario149 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Ask Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and France how well the EU is doing for them, Ask the hundreds of thousands of EU nationals who come here every year, why they want to leave Europe, and get INTO the UK. You might get some more relevant answers.
That just means the EU is going through a rough time at the moment. Doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed
I think most commentator would agree though, that the concept of the Euro is fundamentally flawed. By entering into monetary union without tying together the members' fiscal regimes, it was always clear that economies like Greece would struggle without the ability to devalue and Germany would dominate.

the Euro should have been delayed until fiscal harmony had been achieved and the conditions for entry should have been stricter (and enforce more strongly).

The Euro is not the EU, that's clear but it's one of the instruments they are using to impose ever closer union, ergo if the Euro is fundamentally flawed then it augers badly for the rest of the integration measures.
Agree with a lot of what you're saying. But we always hear the "impose ever closer union" - could the Euro be a mechanism to do this? Yes. But it's a matter of fact that significant change in the EU cannot be imposed on anyone against their will. The whole Turkey hysteria should have put that to bed IMO.

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Zippee said:
romeogolf said:
My partner's brother in law voted leave and later said he'd vote remain if he had the chance. He didn't understand what he was really voting for and thought it was just to 'get rid of immigrants'. Only afterwards when we had the news on did he realise what was actually happening.
It's for reasons such as this that I think we should never have had a referendum, way too important a subject to leave to people who haven't a clue to decide.
+1

I saw a news reporter asking people for their opinion as they exited from polling stations and one middle aged chap stated he voted Leave to 'get rid of the Muslims' as he had 'had enough of them':

A guy from Bradford on the radio this morning said he wanted to leave because he blamed the EU for 'the bedroom tax'.

Another interviewee I saw was voting leave to 'send all the immigrants home'... Which of course isn't going to happen.

It's things like that which make me genuinely believe the British public should never have been asked for their opinion on such an important and complex matter.


Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
Mario149 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Ask Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and France how well the EU is doing for them, Ask the hundreds of thousands of EU nationals who come here every year, why they want to leave Europe, and get INTO the UK. You might get some more relevant answers.
That just means the EU is going through a rough time at the moment. Doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed
If you believe that the EU is not fundamentally flawed, then there is no hope for you. Strange how you believe that the UK is in trouble owing to its decision to leave the EU, and many doom and gloom remainers keep on saying this could last for years (when the UK has one of the strongest economies in the EU) but seem optimistic that the EU which really IS in deep financial and employment trouble, is just `going through a rough time' Just wait until the economic basket cases in the EU start asking for more bail outs, If you think this is a `rough time' for the EU, as the saying goes, you ain`t seen nothing yet. and just when its second greatest net contributor of funds INTO EU coffers (You know the difference between putting things in, and taking them out. right?) has decided to leave. Oh Dear.
All your opinion. You think the UK is strong largely in spite of the EU, I say the UK is strong largely because of the EU. Look, with respect it's impossible to argue the economics with Brexit people on PH (and other places) and it's not because you're arguments are so good (although many clearly have merit), it's because it's not really an economic argument you're putting forward at its core. Let me explain what I mean....

I acknowledge that my knowledge is not as in depth as it needs to be to make a watertight argument, so when push comes to shove I defer to people who know more about it, the professionals, the people that look and work with this at a national and international level every day. And the vast majority of them say that leaving the EU is a bad idea in terms of economics. Now, that's not to say that there aren't a few people in that group who disagree, or that there aren't people here who run businesses etc who can pretty much categorically say that they will benefit from Brexit, or indeed vice versa. So them voting either way specifically for their niche circumstances is completely understandable. But for the rest of us it's far more difficult and far more nuanced, which is exactly what the situation is at national and international level.

The problem is the Brexit side does not have the same level of "economic expert" support so then has to claim that these people are biased/have bad data/whatever, cherry pick their own, and/or claim that people are "sick of experts" (that one is going to haunt Gove until the end of time) and the "elite" telling them what will happen. So at the end of the day, it's not an economic argument that's been put forward, but an "anti-establishment", pseudo-ideological one masquerading as an economic one. The argument is not that the economics will be better, but just the belief that the knowledgeable people telling you an answer you don't want to hear are wrong. Everything else is just window dressing and clouding the issue.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only cast iron reason to vote Brexit is the sovereignty argument. If you absolutely believe that the UK should have the final say over UK laws etc, the EU is fundamentally incompatible with that and there is nothing anyone on the Remain side can counter that with.

Jinx

11,345 posts

259 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
NinjaPower said:
+1

I saw a news reporter asking people for their opinion as they exited from polling stations and one middle aged chap stated he voted Leave to 'get rid of the Muslims' as he had 'had enough of them':

A guy from Bradford on the radio this morning said he wanted to leave because he blamed the EU for 'the bedroom tax'.

Another interviewee I saw was voting leave to 'send all the immigrants home'... Which of course isn't going to happen.

It's things like that which make me genuinely believe the British public should never have been asked for their opinion on such an important and complex matter.
So you don't think you were being shown a carefully chosen selection of comments/sound bites that reinforce a particular narrative?

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
NRS said:
That would be all well and good if it had no effect on the EU countries. However it clearly does, as shown by the (larger) effects on EU country markets. Thus it appears they may be going down the road of screwing us to teach us a lesson, even to the detriment of their own people. That is what I have an issue with.
It is daft, but then it looks like Scotland want to leave the UK and that'd clearly be bad for them, at least in the short term. At a certain point, logic doesn't come into it. Everyone is hoping that it will all be approached rationally, but then we've just had good ol' Nige stand up in the Euro Parliament and essentially tell everyone there they are a workshy idiot and to f*ck off. And then immediately ask for a good trade deal. And there have been people here and on telly who think he should lead negotiations. F*ck me, you couldn't make it up.

Mario149

Original Poster:

7,750 posts

177 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Jinx said:
NinjaPower said:
+1

I saw a news reporter asking people for their opinion as they exited from polling stations and one middle aged chap stated he voted Leave to 'get rid of the Muslims' as he had 'had enough of them':

A guy from Bradford on the radio this morning said he wanted to leave because he blamed the EU for 'the bedroom tax'.

Another interviewee I saw was voting leave to 'send all the immigrants home'... Which of course isn't going to happen.

It's things like that which make me genuinely believe the British public should never have been asked for their opinion on such an important and complex matter.
So you don't think you were being shown a carefully chosen selection of comments/sound bites that reinforce a particular narrative?
I dunno about NP, but I'm more than happy to admit there are idiots on both sides. Which just add to the reasoning that the question shouldn't have been asked of us to start with.

Jinx

11,345 posts

259 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Mario149 said:
It is daft, but then it looks like Scotland want to leave the UK and that'd clearly be bad for them, at least in the short term. At a certain point, logic doesn't come into it. Everyone is hoping that it will all be approached rationally, but then we've just had good ol' Nige stand up in the Euro Parliament and essentially tell everyone there they are a workshy idiot and to f*ck off. And then immediately ask for a good trade deal. And there have been people here and on telly who think he should lead negotiations. F*ck me, you couldn't make it up.
The negotiations for a trade deal will not be with the MEPs in the EU. He knows this.

lostkiwi

4,584 posts

123 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Jinx said:
Mario149 said:
It is daft, but then it looks like Scotland want to leave the UK and that'd clearly be bad for them, at least in the short term. At a certain point, logic doesn't come into it. Everyone is hoping that it will all be approached rationally, but then we've just had good ol' Nige stand up in the Euro Parliament and essentially tell everyone there they are a workshy idiot and to f*ck off. And then immediately ask for a good trade deal. And there have been people here and on telly who think he should lead negotiations. F*ck me, you couldn't make it up.
The negotiations for a trade deal will not be with the MEPs in the EU. He knows this.
Maybe not, but they still have to ratify it.

Jinx

11,345 posts

259 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Mario149 said:
I dunno about NP, but I'm more than happy to admit there are idiots on both sides. Which just add to the reasoning that the question shouldn't have been asked of us to start with.
Politicians ask us to put our lives on the line to defend the sovereignty of a country when under external threat - surely asking our opinion when they've given it away isn't too much to want. There are idiots in every profession (including the HoC) so even a parliamentary vote isn't safe for idiocy (for example the un-costed CCA) wink

Mark Benson

7,498 posts

268 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Mario149 said:
Mark Benson said:
Mario149 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Ask Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and France how well the EU is doing for them, Ask the hundreds of thousands of EU nationals who come here every year, why they want to leave Europe, and get INTO the UK. You might get some more relevant answers.
That just means the EU is going through a rough time at the moment. Doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed
I think most commentator would agree though, that the concept of the Euro is fundamentally flawed. By entering into monetary union without tying together the members' fiscal regimes, it was always clear that economies like Greece would struggle without the ability to devalue and Germany would dominate.

the Euro should have been delayed until fiscal harmony had been achieved and the conditions for entry should have been stricter (and enforce more strongly).

The Euro is not the EU, that's clear but it's one of the instruments they are using to impose ever closer union, ergo if the Euro is fundamentally flawed then it augers badly for the rest of the integration measures.
Agree with a lot of what you're saying. But we always hear the "impose ever closer union" - could the Euro be a mechanism to do this? Yes. But it's a matter of fact that significant change in the EU cannot be imposed on anyone against their will. The whole Turkey hysteria should have put that to bed IMO.
The veto is available, but if you're put in an impossible position (as Greece are currently) then a veto is useless.
It's only a power worth having if you can use it without putting yourself in a worse position either politically or financially.

That's why, I believe the Commission is now keen to have us sign article 50 and get on with the process of leaving. We have less to lose from using our veto than other countries. We're also less committed to the EU project and it irks many (including a lot of Germans I've spoken to this week) that we have 'special status' outside the Euro and exempted from some of the rules the rest of the EU is expected to follow.
They want us fully in or fully out and, now we've shown the level of discontent with the EU they see it as the more pragmatic course of action to give up trying to persuade the British people of the benefits and have us wavering on the sidelines and clear the way for a more closely integrated EU.

At least that's how I see it, and how David Cameron saw in in 2014 when he wrote in the Times

"And dealing properly with the concept of 'ever closer union', enshrined in the treaty, to which every EU country now has to sign up. It may appeal to some countries. But it is not right for Britain, and we must ensure we are no longer subject to it."

He then spoke in the Commons as recently as June 2015 of the June European Council and the UK’s reform proposals, saying

"We will put the Common Market back at the heart of our membership, get off the treadmill to ever-closer union, address the issue of migration to Britain from the rest of the EU and protect Britain’s place in the single market for the long term."

lostkiwi

4,584 posts

123 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Mark Benson said:
The veto is available, but if you're put in an impossible position (as Greece are currently) then a veto is useless.
It's only a power worth having if you can use it without putting yourself in a worse position either politically or financially.

That's why, I believe the Commission is now keen to have us sign article 50 and get on with the process of leaving. We have less to lose from using our veto than other countries. We're also less committed to the EU project and it irks many (including a lot of Germans I've spoken to this week) that we have 'special status' outside the Euro and exempted from some of the rules the rest of the EU is expected to follow.
They want us fully in or fully out and, now we've shown the level of discontent with the EU they see it as the more pragmatic course of action to give up trying to persuade the British people of the benefits and have us wavering on the sidelines and clear the way for a more closely integrated EU.

At least that's how I see it, and how David Cameron saw in in 2014 when he wrote in the Times

"And dealing properly with the concept of 'ever closer union', enshrined in the treaty, to which every EU country now has to sign up. It may appeal to some countries. But it is not right for Britain, and we must ensure we are no longer subject to it."

He then spoke in the Commons as recently as June 2015 of the June European Council and the UK’s reform proposals, saying

"We will put the Common Market back at the heart of our membership, get off the treadmill to ever-closer union, address the issue of migration to Britain from the rest of the EU and protect Britain’s place in the single market for the long term."
And of course if we opt to leave and take on a Norway style membership (the most closely integrated non member) we lose that veto as well.

Mark Benson

7,498 posts

268 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
quotequote all
Jinx said:
Mario149 said:
It is daft, but then it looks like Scotland want to leave the UK and that'd clearly be bad for them, at least in the short term. At a certain point, logic doesn't come into it. Everyone is hoping that it will all be approached rationally, but then we've just had good ol' Nige stand up in the Euro Parliament and essentially tell everyone there they are a workshy idiot and to f*ck off. And then immediately ask for a good trade deal. And there have been people here and on telly who think he should lead negotiations. F*ck me, you couldn't make it up.
The negotiations for a trade deal will not be with the MEPs in the EU. He knows this.
He's not helping though, is he.......

As I said previously, Farage was the useful idiot for the Eurosceptic MPs of both sides, he's no longer so useful, but he's still an idiot.