Would you change your Ref vote if you could go back time?

[otolith]

MarshPhantom said:

otolith said:

Eric Mc said:

Or maybe the time in the lead up to the referendum should have been spent educating people rather than engaging in facile and downright imbecilic argument.

This, in spades. Both sides indulged in Blair style dodgy-dossier politics - acting like greasy lawyers in a cheap courtroom drama with the intent to win by any means.

True, but it turned out Remain were telling the truth and Leave lied about everything.

Strange that.

I think it's too early to say anything about the medium to long term outcomes. Have we deported all of the EU NHS staff yet?

[Otispunkmeyer]

Mario149 said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

bloomen said:

Voted remain. Still would. Not because I love the EU but because the status quo is adequate enough and considerably more adequate than how the nearish future will end up.

As the reality, or total lack thereof from both sides, roll in it's not getting prettier any time soon.

And I'm enjoying the wailing from the young folks. The little sts should've actually voted. There's a hard lesson for them.

Why are people so convinced of the future? Do they have a crystal ball? Can you tell me next week's lottery result?

Whilst leave = Doom and stay = good are valid predictions, they're just that. Predictions. Whether we stay or leave the banks could fk it for us all just as easily IMO. And what if, after staying, in 5 years time we've fully signed up and ditched the pound for the euro? What then? Is that still good?

No one can know the future, it's by definition uncertain. Stop being afraid of it.

No one can predict the far future which is when we may or may not benefit from staying in or out of the EU. We can try and model it and show potential outcomes but of course no one knows. If they can say theyre lying. But what we do know is that now, and for the next few years, we're going to pay a price for leaving, or even just saying we're going to leave - that has started to happen now and will continue. We, and pretty much the rest of the world as it happens, are right now paying a price for a "gamble", when we could just take the "gamble" without the initial price. All the extra cost is giving us is *possibly* some limitation of movement, but it's looking unlikely, and some notion of having more sovereignty which the average person in the street is never going to notice. I can't help but get the impression that some brexisters accuse remainers of having a crystal ball, but are then happy to claim that we are of course going to be better off out in the future. It's like some group level cognitive dissonance. Or maybe some brexiteers have the crystal ball monopoly, I don't know.

I'm not saying we are going to be better or worse off. I don't know. Initial turns are just ripples from the shock, not paying any attention to markets till it dies down and things carry on and people stop running around like headless chickens. Equally I am not going to say we'd be better or worse off if we stayed in. Of course we wouldn't be having these ripples (and we've survived worse by the way and you don't have to go too far back to see it), but who knows what lies in wait if we stay.

Remain would appear to have been the better short term choice, perhaps even medium term. But long term? Anyone's guess. I have tried to make an educated guess and my logic lead me down on leave. Besides I have always been a proponent of having less short term-ism and more long term-ism. Its the former that has gotten us in a pickle time and time again. Thats part of my leave vote, but of course I am sure many other leavers saw a quick fix to immigration and the NHS or whatever they're bleating on about. For me neither of those were an issue.

We just need less of the sky is falling rhetoric and more of the thinking about how best we deal with the hand dealt.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 28th June 09:39

[ZX10R NIN]

That's the problem no one was telling the truth, the Politicians didn't take this seriously (& I mean all of them from all countries) that's why the result went the way it went.

Is it a surprise the pound & the stock market have taken a hit? To me no I knew this would be the case with an exit vote what has been a big surprise is how much the Euro & it's stock market has tanked which says a lot about Europe's financial situation than Britain's.

Haven't we had Two massive meltdowns of the Market whilst being in Europe.

However people voted it's time to get on with it & stop whinging about it.

In the words of Frozen "LET IT GO"

I voted remain but I saw a lot of valid reasons for leaving I was just swayed into the stay vote because I knew that the short term would be painful, also because Cameron & Osborne were doing an okay job with the economy but in the back of my mind there was the niggling thought that a remain vote would see us end up with the Euro at some point down the line.

What I'm really unhappy about is the aftermath Cameron should have stayed & got on with the job the People elected him to do which is to represent his country's wishes, he could see what was happening & decided to make it worse that in my opinion is an act of selfishness in my book.

Short term pain for long term gain? Only time will tell on that one & Time is exactly what's now needed in a year's time let's look back & see if things are any worse than they were before the result!

I mean let's be honest it wasn't exactly a bed of roses being controlled by Brussels.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Tuesday 28th June 09:59

[InfiniteVoltage]

Mario149 said:

Question just popped into my head: which is the worse democratic betrayal?

1) Ignoring the result of the referendum and staying because it can be seen that a majority no longer support the result

2) Following through on the referendum and leaving, but not delivering any of the promises used to secure that victory.

Exactly this.

As I said in a very embarrassing thread I started a day or so ago, I am one of the foolish that got sucked in to the leave campaign and voted leave. Having seen the repercussions and seen many of the lies quickly exposed, and now also seeing the longer term impacts, I would not hesitate to vote remain given the chance to exercise 'democracy' again.

My current view, which has obviously changed dramatically in such a short time, is that I can see the UK being damaged for years, whilst the EU become closer and a more unified entity. This will make them stronger and they will win the majority of the best trading deals with the rest of the world. The UK could fall behind and our current generations will be paying the price for a long time.

All for what?
For the satisfaction to say that "great, we're British, our public are in control of our lives" ?
But what if our great british public are a bit $hit at controlling our great british lives when it comes to the specific point of rapidly changing global prosperity and stability?
Because at the end of the day everything pins on that specific point.

It allows us to reduce deficit and then reduce the national debt. Once that is being tackled we can then increase funding for public services and also put the UK government and the UK as a whole in a much better position to do trade anywhere in the world.

[MDMetal]

InfiniteVoltage said:

Exactly this.

As I said in a very embarrassing thread I started a day or so ago, I am one of the foolish that got sucked in to the leave campaign and voted leave. Having seen the repercussions and seen many of the lies quickly exposed, and now also seeing the longer term impacts, I would not hesitate to vote remain given the chance to exercise 'democracy' again.

My current view, which has obviously changed dramatically in such a short time, is that I can see the UK being damaged for years, whilst the EU become closer and a more unified entity. This will make them stronger and they will win the majority of the best trading deals with the rest of the world. The UK could fall behind and our current generations will be paying the price for a long time.

All for what?
For the satisfaction to say that "great, we're British, our public are in control of our lives" ?
But what if our great british public are a bit $hit at controlling our great british lives when it comes to the specific point of rapidly changing global prosperity and stability?
Because at the end of the day everything pins on that specific point.

It allows us to reduce deficit and then reduce the national debt. Once that is being tackled we can then increase funding for public services and also put the UK government and the UK as a whole in a much better position to do trade anywhere in the world.

I still think we should be out and some of our EU friends will join us rather than the superstate, members should have free will etc. Its too early to say how this outcome will end up, the markets are already stabilising so we have to see what happens in a few months. It does look scarily like nobody thought they'd win though, that at the very least should be what's annoying people!

[Mario149]

Otispunkmeyer said:

I'm not saying we are going to be better or worse off. I don't know. Initial turns are just ripples from the shock, not paying any attention to markets till it dies down and things carry on and people stop running around like headless chickens. Equally I am not going to say we'd be better or worse off if we stayed in. Of course we wouldn't be having these ripples (and we've survived worse by the way and you don't have to go too far back to see it), but who knows what lies in wait if we stay.

Remain would appear to have been the better short term choice, perhaps even medium term. But long term? Anyone's guess. I have tried to make an educated guess and my logic lead me down on leave. Besides I have always been a proponent of having less short term-ism and more long term-ism. Its the former that has gotten us in a pickle time and time again. Thats part of my leave vote, but of course I am sure many other leavers saw a quick fix to immigration and the NHS or whatever they're bleating on about. For me neither of those were an issue.

We just need less of the sky is falling rhetoric and more of the thinking about how best we deal with the hand dealt.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 28th June 09:39

Interesting answer thanks. I kinda did similar, I just decided that 5+ years or so I was seeing until everything settled (not going fantastically mind, just settled) according to the best (and pretty much only) pro-Brexit plan I saw was too long, so much could happen in that time. I mean we average a recession every 10-15 years for a start, so we're about due one soon anyway. Then the other day (and I admit I should have done this before voting) I modeled a few scenarios with varying Brexit/Remain GDP growth rates and tried to keep the numbers realistic. Turns out the best sensible case I could come up with for breaking even in terms of recovering to the GDP we would have likely had if we Stayed was ~8 years. Worst case was over 15 years

[Camoradi]

If I had perfected time travel, a polling booth in Cam cricket pavilion (how little England is that!) last Thursday would not be my first destination.

I'd travel back to the newsagent on the first week of the National Lottery, then look forward to watching this Brexit nonsense from New Zealand

[Pan Pan Pan]

MarshPhantom said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

PorkInsider said:

MarshPhantom said:

JoeMarano said:

The media is clearly on the government's side here that's what I think anyway. It's been all negative since it happened.

It's all been negative because it's all been negative since it happened. Can you list any positives?

Absolutely this ^

What is it that people think should be reported as positive?

Hard to find anything positive to say about the EU either, perhaps we just live in negative times, and people are trying to out negative eachother?

You may not like the EU, can you not even admit the damage that has been caused by leaving?

Only if you tell me what will happen when the basket case economies of the EU come looking for their next bailout which will be in a few months time, and they find that the EU`s second greatest contributor of funds INTO EU coffers has left, leaving only Germany as a significant contributor INTO EU coffers/ How long do you think Germany, and the German people are going to be willing to bear the financial brunt of keeping the failed and failing EU alive?
Why do you think hundreds of thousands of EU nationals want to get INTO the UK every year. Simple answer, because there are virtually no jobs in the EU, with colossal levels of unemployment in many EU countries (Even France FFS)
It will be a matter of when, not if, the rotten, corrupt sinking SS EU slides deservedly beneath the waves, and fortunately, the UK has launched itself off in a lifeboat, rather than handcuffing itself to the railings of the EU`s SS Titanic.

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Tuesday 28th June 10:10

[Mark Benson]

Mario149 said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

I'm not saying we are going to be better or worse off. I don't know. Initial turns are just ripples from the shock, not paying any attention to markets till it dies down and things carry on and people stop running around like headless chickens. Equally I am not going to say we'd be better or worse off if we stayed in. Of course we wouldn't be having these ripples (and we've survived worse by the way and you don't have to go too far back to see it), but who knows what lies in wait if we stay.

Remain would appear to have been the better short term choice, perhaps even medium term. But long term? Anyone's guess. I have tried to make an educated guess and my logic lead me down on leave. Besides I have always been a proponent of having less short term-ism and more long term-ism. Its the former that has gotten us in a pickle time and time again. Thats part of my leave vote, but of course I am sure many other leavers saw a quick fix to immigration and the NHS or whatever they're bleating on about. For me neither of those were an issue.

We just need less of the sky is falling rhetoric and more of the thinking about how best we deal with the hand dealt.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 28th June 09:39

Interesting answer thanks. I kinda did similar, I just decided that 5+ years or so I was seeing until everything settled (not going fantastically mind, just settled) according to the best (and pretty much only) pro-Brexit plan I saw was too long, so much could happen in that time. I mean we average a recession every 10-15 years for a start, so we're about due one soon anyway. Then the other day (and I admit I should have done this before voting) I modeled a few scenarios with varying Brexit/Remain GDP growth rates and tried to keep the numbers realistic. Turns out the best sensible case I could come up with for breaking even in terms of recovering to the GDP we would have likely had if we Stayed was ~8 years. Worst case was over 15 years

Same here (in terms of looking longer term) but I factored in at least one more Eurozone country getting into difficulty. I really do think the EU (Germany) can and will kick the Greek can down the road for a long time to come, but things get a bit stickier for them if one of the larger economies like Italy get into trouble or Germany's GDP started to falter.
I'd rather not have had the referendum in the first place, but we did and if we remained I feared we'd be dragged into the difficulties of Eurozone states (as we have been already with Greece, indirectly) and tied more closely to a trading bloc that was, frankly withering away as it's influence and output declines.

In short, I felt long term that we were better placed to trade with the world at large than the EU will be 10 years hence.

[ATG]

Jonesy23 said:

Zippee said:

It's for reasons such as this that I think we should never have had a referendum, way too important a subject to leave to people who haven't a clue to decide.

And yet the same method is used to choose MPs!

No we don't. Parliamentary elections are completely different than referenda.

You elect an MP on the understanding that the MP will use their own judgement when voting on legislation in Parliament. You are putting your trust in their judgement.

In a referendum Joe Public are making a specific decision. But what actually happens is that it becomes a popularity contest. It becomes an opportunity for a protest vote and a vote of no confidence. That's why referenda are such an astonishingly bad idea if the specific question is really important, because the specific question usually doesn't determine how people vote.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Mario149 said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

I'm not saying we are going to be better or worse off. I don't know. Initial turns are just ripples from the shock, not paying any attention to markets till it dies down and things carry on and people stop running around like headless chickens. Equally I am not going to say we'd be better or worse off if we stayed in. Of course we wouldn't be having these ripples (and we've survived worse by the way and you don't have to go too far back to see it), but who knows what lies in wait if we stay.

Remain would appear to have been the better short term choice, perhaps even medium term. But long term? Anyone's guess. I have tried to make an educated guess and my logic lead me down on leave. Besides I have always been a proponent of having less short term-ism and more long term-ism. Its the former that has gotten us in a pickle time and time again. Thats part of my leave vote, but of course I am sure many other leavers saw a quick fix to immigration and the NHS or whatever they're bleating on about. For me neither of those were an issue.

We just need less of the sky is falling rhetoric and more of the thinking about how best we deal with the hand dealt.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 28th June 09:39

Interesting answer thanks. I kinda did similar, I just decided that 5+ years or so I was seeing until everything settled (not going fantastically mind, just settled) according to the best (and pretty much only) pro-Brexit plan I saw was too long, so much could happen in that time. I mean we average a recession every 10-15 years for a start, so we're about due one soon anyway. Then the other day (and I admit I should have done this before voting) I modeled a few scenarios with varying Brexit/Remain GDP growth rates and tried to keep the numbers realistic. Turns out the best sensible case I could come up with for breaking even in terms of recovering to the GDP we would have likely had if we Stayed was ~8 years. Worst case was over 15 years

I didn't listen to any of the campaigning because I treat that with the disdain it deserved. It was all hand waving fear mongering and bullst on both sides and I could see right through it. I looked for what I didn't like about the EU and what worried me about it. A major reason for me wanting out is the way this lot carry on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/05/prime-m...

When voting I hadn't actually decied which way to go even walking to the station. I stood in front of the booth for 10 minutes trying to go through the logic again in my head. It was quite a stressful decision, but I just couldn't come down on remain because these guys disgust me so much.

I mean if they kicked him and some of his cronies out and they were replaced by people with a less binary vision (Juncker seems very much to be a my way or no way person) then I'd be inclined to change my mind. As long as they are pulling the strings I don't feel the EU has a good future ahead of it in the long term. My vote really is against the EU as a bureaucratic monster headed by undemocratic power vultures. It was not a vote against Europe.

I like being in Europe. I like Europe. I like the people. But the EU? No. It is death by a 1000 cuts creeping bureaucracy that is underhandedly trying to force some kind of unified utopia onto all members like a one sizes fits all glove. With the best will in the world I'd say that is unrealistic.

I do realist of course that the British Government, has in the past, been equally mad with its stifling bureaucracy and power hungry cretins. I am not old enough to have lived through that time, but I am not daft enough to think our ways have been or are much better. But at least we have a more immediate say about who runs the show here and we can do something about them. I get the feeling you'd have crow-bar Jean Claude Juncker's cold dead body off the EU throne before he'd give it up!

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 28th June 10:15

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 28th June 10:15

[Pan Pan Pan]

Mario149 said:

Question just popped into my head: which is the worse democratic betrayal?

1) Ignoring the result of the referendum and staying because it can be seen that a majority no longer support the result

2) Following through on the referendum and leaving, but not delivering any of the promises used to secure that victory.

Don't worry When all of the headless chickens have finally stopped charging around screaming doom and gloom, and calmed down, and the EU sinks beneath the waves of basket case bail outs, and the mass unemployment that exists NOW in the EU, people will see that getting off the sinking ship was the right thing to do after all.

[Mario149]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Only if you tell me what will happen when the basket case economies of the EU come looking for their next bailout which will be in a few months time, and they find that the EU`s second greatest contributor of funds INTO EU coffers has left, leaving only Germany as a significant contributor INTO EU coffers/ How long do you think Germany, and the German people are going to be willing to bear the financial brunt of keeping the failed and failing EU alive?
Why do you think hundreds of thousands of EU nationals want to get INTO the UK every year. Simple answer, because there are virtually no jobs in the EU, with colossal levels of unemployment in many EU countries (Even France FFS)
It will be a matter of when, not if, the rotten, corrupt sinking SS EU slides deservedly beneath the waves, and fortunately, the UK has launched itself off in a lifeboat, rather than handcuffing itself to the railings of the EU`s SS Titanic.

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Tuesday 28th June 10:10

The problem is, as far as I'm concerned and anyone who realizes that whatever happens we'll still have to trade with the EU in the future, is that while we would hypothetically be in a life boat, that lifeboat would still be tied to the ship's railing. If the EU goes down, we will too. So if leaving precipitates it's sinking, we'll have brought havoc on ourselves.

And of course, that all relies on your initial assumption that the EU is sinking to start with, which most people in the know don't agree with.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Mario149 said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Only if you tell me what will happen when the basket case economies of the EU come looking for their next bailout which will be in a few months time, and they find that the EU`s second greatest contributor of funds INTO EU coffers has left, leaving only Germany as a significant contributor INTO EU coffers/ How long do you think Germany, and the German people are going to be willing to bear the financial brunt of keeping the failed and failing EU alive?
Why do you think hundreds of thousands of EU nationals want to get INTO the UK every year. Simple answer, because there are virtually no jobs in the EU, with colossal levels of unemployment in many EU countries (Even France FFS)
It will be a matter of when, not if, the rotten, corrupt sinking SS EU slides deservedly beneath the waves, and fortunately, the UK has launched itself off in a lifeboat, rather than handcuffing itself to the railings of the EU`s SS Titanic.

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Tuesday 28th June 10:10

The problem is, as far as I'm concerned and anyone who realizes that whatever happens we'll still have to trade with the EU in the future, is that while we would hypothetically be in a life boat, that lifeboat would still be tied to the ship's railing. If the EU goes down, we will too. So if leaving precipitates it's sinking, we'll have brought havoc on ourselves.

And of course, that all relies on your initial assumption that the EU is sinking to start with, which most people in the know don't agree with.

Like the banks, I do think the EU is too big to sink. But I wouldn't work at a bank...

[Mario149]

Otispunkmeyer said:

A major reason for me wanting out is the way this lot carry on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/05/prime-m...

When voting I hadn't actually decied which way to go even walking to the station. I stood in front of the booth for 10 minutes trying to go through the logic again in my head. But I just couldn't come down on remain because these guys disgust me so much.

I mean if they kicked him and some of his cronies out and they were replaced by people with a less binary vision (Juncker seems very much to be a my way or no way person) then I'd be inclined to change my mind. As long as they are pulling the strings I don't feel the EU has a good future ahead of it in the long term. My vote really is against the EU as a bureaucratic monster headed by undemocratic power vultures. It was not a vote against Europe.

I like being in Europe. I like Europe. I like the people. But the EU? No. It is death by a 1000 cuts creeping bureaucracy that is underhandedly trying to force some kind of unified utopia onto all members like a one sizes fits all glove. With the best will in the world I'd say that is unrealistic.

I do realist of course that the British Government, has in the past, been equally mad with its stifling bureaucracy and power hungry cretins. I am not old enough to have lived through that time, but I am not daft enough to think our ways have been or are much better. But at least we have a more immediate say about who runs the show here and we can do something about them. I get the feeling you'd have crow-bar Jean Claude Juncker's cold dead body off the EU throne before he'd give it up!

Yeah, I can def see that EU officials don't make it easy to like them! But for me, I was just thinking that none of these people are forever. Juncker will be gone in 3 years time etc

[Mario149]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Don't worry When all of the headless chickens have finally stopped charging around screaming doom and gloom, and calmed down, and the EU sinks beneath the waves of basket case bail outs, and the mass unemployment that exists NOW in the EU, people will see that getting off the sinking ship was the right thing to do after all.

I'd like to order one of your finest crystal balls please, express delivery.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Mario149 said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Only if you tell me what will happen when the basket case economies of the EU come looking for their next bailout which will be in a few months time, and they find that the EU`s second greatest contributor of funds INTO EU coffers has left, leaving only Germany as a significant contributor INTO EU coffers/ How long do you think Germany, and the German people are going to be willing to bear the financial brunt of keeping the failed and failing EU alive?
Why do you think hundreds of thousands of EU nationals want to get INTO the UK every year. Simple answer, because there are virtually no jobs in the EU, with colossal levels of unemployment in many EU countries (Even France FFS)
It will be a matter of when, not if, the rotten, corrupt sinking SS EU slides deservedly beneath the waves, and fortunately, the UK has launched itself off in a lifeboat, rather than handcuffing itself to the railings of the EU`s SS Titanic.

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Tuesday 28th June 10:10

The problem is, as far as I'm concerned and anyone who realizes that whatever happens we'll still have to trade with the EU in the future, is that while we would hypothetically be in a life boat, that lifeboat would still be tied to the ship's railing. If the EU goes down, we will too. So if leaving precipitates it's sinking, we'll have brought havoc on ourselves.

And of course, that all relies on your initial assumption that the EU is sinking to start with, which most people in the know don't agree with.

It is not an assumption it is fact, the EU is in deep trouble already, only being kept afloat by Germany and the UK manning the pumps. Now that the UK has said F8ck this for a waste of time, it will only be a matter of time before Germany and the German people say they have enough of flogging themselves to keep the basket cases in its midst afloat.
Ask Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, even France and some of the newly admitted Eastern European states all with colossal levels of unemployment if they think they are `doing well'

[Mark Benson]

Mario149 said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

A major reason for me wanting out is the way this lot carry on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/05/prime-m...

When voting I hadn't actually decied which way to go even walking to the station. I stood in front of the booth for 10 minutes trying to go through the logic again in my head. But I just couldn't come down on remain because these guys disgust me so much.

I mean if they kicked him and some of his cronies out and they were replaced by people with a less binary vision (Juncker seems very much to be a my way or no way person) then I'd be inclined to change my mind. As long as they are pulling the strings I don't feel the EU has a good future ahead of it in the long term. My vote really is against the EU as a bureaucratic monster headed by undemocratic power vultures. It was not a vote against Europe.

I like being in Europe. I like Europe. I like the people. But the EU? No. It is death by a 1000 cuts creeping bureaucracy that is underhandedly trying to force some kind of unified utopia onto all members like a one sizes fits all glove. With the best will in the world I'd say that is unrealistic.

I do realist of course that the British Government, has in the past, been equally mad with its stifling bureaucracy and power hungry cretins. I am not old enough to have lived through that time, but I am not daft enough to think our ways have been or are much better. But at least we have a more immediate say about who runs the show here and we can do something about them. I get the feeling you'd have crow-bar Jean Claude Juncker's cold dead body off the EU throne before he'd give it up!

Yeah, I can def see that EU officials don't make it easy to like them! But for me, I was just thinking that none of these people are forever. Juncker will be gone in 3 years time etc

And replaced by?

It's not as if they produce a manifesto and allow us to vote for them based on it.

The direction is clear, ever closer union and the means and methods are by pooling sovereignty and removing national institutions in favour of pan-European ones.

All the changes is the face at the top, the direction remain the same.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Mario149 said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Don't worry When all of the headless chickens have finally stopped charging around screaming doom and gloom, and calmed down, and the EU sinks beneath the waves of basket case bail outs, and the mass unemployment that exists NOW in the EU, people will see that getting off the sinking ship was the right thing to do after all.

I'd like to order one of your finest crystal balls please, express delivery.

Fine, if you send me one of yours, the one that says the EU is doing wonderfully at the moment, I promise not to notice the huge cracks in it.

[Mario149]

Pan Pan Pan said:

It is not an assumption it is fact, the EU is in deep trouble already, only being kept afloat by Germany and the UK manning the pumps. Now that the UK has said F8ck this for a waste of time, it will only be a matter of time before Germany and the German people say they have enough of flogging themselves to keep the basket cases in its midst afloat.
Ask Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, even France and some of the newly admitted Eastern European states all with colossal levels of unemployment if they think they are `doing well'

That the EU will sink is not a fact. And an awful lot of people who understand this way better than we do seem to agree. And I say again, if the EU goes down so will we.