Lib Dems: Making a great comeback?

[crankedup]

JagLover said:

crankedup said:

A second referendum is not the will of the people, OK sure some remainders have voiced an opinion but that is all. It is not amounting to anything of significance.
I was not impressed.with my local election results, can we have a re-run please. At what point do we discard democracy?

When it goes against the views of the establishment.

Indeed.

[Derek Smith]

JagLover said:

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither and will lose both"

All I am hearing is that self-governance is wrong if it involves economic uncertainty and a small economic hit.

The thing about aphorisms is that they give all the appearance of wisdom without the need to think for yourself.

There's one for every point of view.

As for self-governance, are you under the misapprehension that we will not have to comply with the EU directives now that we are 'self governing'? The only difference is that we will not have a say, so in effect the opposite of democratic.

[Derek Smith]

footnote said:

I think what encourages me about the Lib Dems is that they came straight out and said they would campaign in a general election on a Remain/Return platform.

They didn't wait around to see which way the wind was blowing - they took the initiative - risked ridicule and stood up for what every other party was also supposed to believe in - Remaining - credit to David Lammy for that too.

Their strength is that they do have the party/campaigning infrastructure.

True, they probably won't win over ex-Ukippers - but they are a natural choice for disillusioned Labour voters.

Of course, if the Govt go so as far as triggering Article 50 - it will be highly unlikely we will ever re-join.

But, at this stage, as I understand it, we don't have to do anything, do we? The Referendum can be ignored. It could be superseded by a winning election commitment - which seems possible or another referendum as per Jeremy Hunt's proposal.

My feeling is that now, post-referendum, the flawed logic of an 'amicable deal' from the EU of 'we pay less & get more' is now becoming apparent and people are realising just how impossible it always was.

After all, they say in the best negotiations, both sides should come away feeling as though they've got something of what they wanted and there was never anything for the EU in that bargaining stance.

The only thing I hope is that the EU don't decide that in fact the best result for the EU is to be permanently rid of the ball-ache that Britain has become and refuse to countenance any about-turn in whatever form.

I'm no big fan of Farron, but then there's the comparison: Corbyn or Cameron - May - or god help us Johnson. From that point of view he's not so bad.

I've voted LibDem in the past, as well as labour and tory. I go for what I think will be best for this country. We've got a libdem group in my area. The sitting tenant is a great fat, lazy oaf who has little concern for the area. I've got no idea which way I'll vote next time but it won't be for our tory.

However, there's no way we'll be taken back into the EU without some fundamental change in the organisation, and probably not even then. We've burned our bridges. If I was in another EU country I'd follow the example of Bismark and Napoleon and go for isolating the UK. Let's face it, most of their work is done.

[Timmy40]

Derek Smith said:

However, there's no way we'll be taken back into the EU without some fundamental change in the organisation, and probably not even then. We've burned our bridges. If I was in another EU country I'd follow the example of Bismark and Napoleon and go for isolating the UK. Let's face it, most of their work is done.

True, I actually think after the initial shock they're now thinking it's a good job we've gone, they will survive. As will we. Smaller and less influential than before. Perhaps more the vision Major had of Britain as opposed to Blairs idea that we were still global military players.

It may well be in the best interests of Europe that financial services and tech are more spread out. And in a way it may be good for us, because immigration levels might fall once the economic disparity between us and the EU even out. Alot of Polish builders are going to be out of work, as will alot of restaurent and hotel staff.

[Jinx]

Derek Smith said:

As for self-governance, are you under the misapprehension that we will not have to comply with the EU directives now that we are 'self governing'? The only difference is that we will not have a say, so in effect the opposite of democratic.

Only on trade goods sold within the EU. Working time directives, H&S directives, competition directives all can be challenged and changed at the UK level. What directives are you under the illusion we will have to comply with?

[Derek Smith]

Jinx said:

Only on trade goods sold within the EU. Working time directives, H&S directives, competition directives all can be challenged and changed at the UK level. What directives are you under the illusion we will have to comply with?

Those that will be imposed if we opt for the Norwegian Option. You know, the one favoured by Johnson and probably the majority of parliament.

I thought we already ignored the working time directives.

[Zigster]

Derek Smith said:

I've voted LibDem in the past, as well as labour and tory. I go for what I think will be best for this country. We've got a libdem group in my area. The sitting tenant is a great fat, lazy oaf who has little concern for the area. I've got no idea which way I'll vote next time but it won't be for our tory.

From posts you've made in the past, I think you and I might have the same Tory MP ...

But, on the other hand, you probably haven't narrowed it down that much.

[Jinx]

Derek Smith said:

Those that will be imposed if we opt for the Norwegian Option. You know, the one favoured by Johnson and probably the majority of parliament.

I thought we already ignored the working time directives.

The UK option will not be the Norwegian option. But again what "directives" that are not trade goods related have Norway chosen to adopt?
Our truck industry could certainly get a boost if we reduce the stringent working time rules (might even be able to compete again) .

[CrutyRammers]

crankedup said:

CrutyRammers said:

crankedup said:

As a long standing Lib -- Dem I find it embarrassing that the Party should resort to an affront of democracy in the interests of political advantage. How low can politicians stoop?

He appears to now be arguing against the fixed term parliament act, which he was largely responsible for. But now he's not got his own way, he wants a GE called this year.
The man is nothing if not consistent in his hypocrisy.

Please correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is that a G.E. May be called within a fixed term Parliament under special circumstances.!

Yes, if there's a vote of no confidence in the government, or (from memory) a 2/3 majority of mps vote for it. But a vote of NC should be a reason for a new GE, not seen as a technical mechanism to achieve one for partisan aims.

[Kiwi LS2]

It would seem they could make a double-header to win votes here; campaign on the promise to keep the UK in the EU and legalise cannabis to sort out our wee problem with debt....

Though the later the later would probably see them fall foul of a coalition with the Tories subject to who is leading the party.

I've never voted Lib Dem before but given a mandate on the above I think I could be persuaded.

[Mark Benson]

JagLover said:

crankedup said:

A second referendum is not the will of the people, OK sure some remainders have voiced an opinion but that is all. It is not amounting to anything of significance.
I was not impressed.with my local election results, can we have a re-run please. At what point do we discard democracy?

When it goes against the views of the establishment entitled whiners on social media, opportunistic politicians seeing a way of recovering from their worst election in a generation and politicians who've proven themselves wholly unprepared and are now bricking it in case they get screwed over and we all blame them.

FTFY

[footnote]

crankedup said:

JagLover said:

crankedup said:

A second referendum is not the will of the people, OK sure some remainders have voiced an opinion but that is all. It is not amounting to anything of significance.
I was not impressed.with my local election results, can we have a re-run please. At what point do we discard democracy?

When it goes against the views of the establishment.

Indeed.

On what do you base an assertion that a second referendum is not the 'will of the people'?

For that matter, when did the holding of the first referendum become the 'will of the people'?

None of the main political parties wanted it. All campaigned to remain.

It's accepted that a 52:48 result for Remain would have resulted in demands for a second referendum - which would probably happen - that's what happens with close results in referendums.

I wouldn't accept a comamparison between the referendum and the local election results - people generally can predict the consequences of any result in an election but the consequences of the referendum were unknown and obscured by bias and vitriol on all sides.

We'd probably never agree on this. Fair enough. If it had come out the other way I wouldn't expect the Leavers to give up either.

I watched Tim Farron on the news at lunchtime. I've never voted LibDem before but he seems sensible enough and he's sharp enough to seize the moment.

I've voted labour previously but there's too much militant tendency going on there at the moment - they've yet to hit bottom.

I couldn't in all conscience vote Tory and anyway, they'll genuinely never be united behind Leave or Remain - the cracks in belief are whacking great chasms now - and visible for all to see. Any unity is more pretence than ever. I think they've yet to hit bottom too.

LibDems have been in coalition recently. They've got the infrastructure and experience.
Sure, they fked up - but so have Labour and Tory and they're still doing it now.

I'll give the Lib Dems a go because they're not confused about what they want and what they stand for.

[Mark Benson]

footnote said:

On what do you base an assertion that a second referendum is not the 'will of the people'?

For that matter, when the holding of the first referendum become the 'will of the people'?

None of the main political parties wanted it. All campaigned to remain.

It's accepted that a 52:48 result for Remain would have resulted in demands for a second referendum - which would probably happen - that's what happens with close results in referendums.

What? Are you on something?

footnote said:

I'll give the Lib Dems a go because they're not confused about what they want and what they stand for.

Oh, you are.

[handpaper]

Jinx said:

Derek Smith said:

Those that will be imposed if we opt for the Norwegian Option. You know, the one favoured by Johnson and probably the majority of parliament.

I thought we already ignored the working time directives.

The UK option will not be the Norwegian option. But again what "directives" that are not trade goods related have Norway chosen to adopt?
Our truck industry could certainly get a boost if we reduce the stringent working time rules (might even be able to compete again) .

Truckers (like me) already ignore or have a get-out from most of the Working Time Directive. Theoretically, I must have 11 hours rest in any 24-hour period. However this can be reduced to 9 hours on three days of any working week. So for the majority of a 5-day week, I can do a 15-hour day (and usually do).
The other 'headline' restriction of a maximum 48-hour working week can be opted out of. Frankly, if I hadn't opted out, I would be better off stacking shelves in Tesco. My average working week is 70 hours; on that I can afford to live.

[footnote]

Mark Benson said:

footnote said:

On what do you base an assertion that a second referendum is not the 'will of the people'?

For that matter, when the holding of the first referendum become the 'will of the people'?

None of the main political parties wanted it. All campaigned to remain.

It's accepted that a 52:48 result for Remain would have resulted in demands for a second referendum - which would probably happen - that's what happens with close results in referendums.

What? Are you on something?

footnote said:

I'll give the Lib Dems a go because they're not confused about what they want and what they stand for.

Oh, you are.

You'll like this.


"I've been dreaming of a time when
to be English is not to be baneful
to be standing by the flag, not feeling shameful
racist or partial

I've been dreaming of a time when
the English are sick to death
of Labour, and Tories
and spit upon the name Oliver Cromwell
and denounce this royal line that still salute him
and will salute him
Forever... "


Go on... you're chuckling now!

Thanks to Morrisey's Irish Blood English Heart -

[Mark Benson]

footnote said:

Mark Benson said:

footnote said:

On what do you base an assertion that a second referendum is not the 'will of the people'?

For that matter, when the holding of the first referendum become the 'will of the people'?

None of the main political parties wanted it. All campaigned to remain.

It's accepted that a 52:48 result for Remain would have resulted in demands for a second referendum - which would probably happen - that's what happens with close results in referendums.

What? Are you on something?

footnote said:

I'll give the Lib Dems a go because they're not confused about what they want and what they stand for.

Oh, you are.

You'll like this.


"I've been dreaming of a time when
to be English is not to be baneful
to be standing by the flag, not feeling shameful
racist or partial

I've been dreaming of a time when
the English are sick to death
of Labour, and Tories
and spit upon the name Oliver Cromwell
and denounce this royal line that still salute him
and will salute him
Forever... "


Go on... you're chuckling now!

Thanks to Morrisey's Irish Blood English Heart -

You're quoting Morrisey now? Seek help. Substance abuse is a serious problem, there are people that can help you.

[Derek Smith]

Jinx said:

The UK option will not be the Norwegian option.

You disagree with Johnson then. You disagree with the majority of MPs who want to be in the EU.

The referendum was a vote to leave the EU. The farcical decision by Cameron means just that: a vote to leave. There is nothing to stop the Norwegian option being taken up. The exiters mentioned it enough times in their campaign, and now those who didn't want to leave anyway will vote on it.

More of the same, except probably more costly.

[footnote]

Mark Benson said:

You're quoting Morrisey now? Seek help. Substance abuse is a serious problem, there are people that can help you.

Ha ha...

It's probably impossible to change people's minds most of the time, certainly pretty difficult, but I don't think walking away from the EU is the solution to most of the issues that seem to come up in tv interviews as the things that are really bugging the Leavers.

Fair enough, the Leavers do think it's the solution.

The two main issues, as expressed on tv, seem to be immigration and being told what to do.

Immigration is not going to be solved by leaving - now admitted by all sides involved.

Being told what to do - this is such a nebulous concept - I've not seen a substantive explanation of what it means to ordinary people yet.

I don't think the people on tv/the ordinary people are taking about EU regulations on working time but I could be wrong.

It could be the shape of bananas.

To me, it comes across as some sort of resentment at not being special anymore but I'm open to having my mind changed on what this means to ordinary people.

[Derek Smith]

The libdems have just got a boost, I think. Corbyn has suffered a vote of no confidence, 176 to 44 (numbers vary), but has stated that he will not resign. He has no cabinet.

This means that there will be many disillusioned voters. I've voted labour in the past but can't see me doing so in the future with Corbyn in charge.

The libdems could become the main opposition. If the tories move to the right - very possible - the middle left will be a catholic place to be.

The main question is what will the MPs who voted against him do? They could just leave it of course, the GE is a long time coming. There is a lot of news around at the moment and this is a technical matter to most.

We need a strong opposition. We need an opposition that reflects alternative views. I'd prefer it to be the libdems.

[don4l]

Derek Smith said:

The thing about aphorisms is that they give all the appearance of wisdom without the need to think for yourself.

There's one for every point of view.

As for self-governance, are you under the misapprehension that we will not have to comply with the EU directives now that we are 'self governing'? The only difference is that we will not have a say, so in effect the opposite of democratic.

Now you are just making stuff up.

Many countries that have not implemented the EU Water Management directive are perfectly able to trade with the EU.

If we want to sell products into Europe, those products will have to comply with local standards - just as we do at present.