The economic consequences of Brexit

[hedgefinder]

RYH64E said:

There's nothing in the rules of PH membership that obliges you to participate...

I will have to check to see if there is something in there regarding multiple threads on various subjects having one track course changes made by anti brexit perpetual moaners with their own agendas........... its really, really boring... and as I originally said - self perpetuating......... generally the only ones that cant see that are the ones perpetuating it lol..

[MG CHRIS]

Some good news today Nissan is set to announce its to build the new suv model at the sunderland car plant didn't the remainers say sunderland would lose out on jobs if we left because Nissan would leave. Not another lie by the remainers by any chance is it?

[don'tbesilly]

davepoth said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

I am pointing out that a trade agreement with the EU is not the same as access to the single market. That is fact not speculation.

The EU could of course agree a unique deal with the UK which is somewhere between the two. Personally I don't see that happening.

Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Sunday 23 October 08:48

Can you define for us your understanding of

1)access to the Single Market

and

2)membership of the Single Market

Please? I've just looked at the argument over the last three pages and it looks to come down to semantics.

Favoured technique of PM, word play is something he excels at.

[andymadmak]

don'tbesilly said:

Favoured technique of PM, word play is something he excels at.

Last I saw he had picked up his ball and stomped off cos we were all horrid people.. is he back already?

[RYH64E]

hedgefinder said:

RYH64E said:

There's nothing in the rules of PH membership that obliges you to participate...

I will have to check to see if there is something in there regarding multiple threads on various subjects having one track course changes made by anti brexit perpetual moaners with their own agendas........... its really, really boring... and as I originally said - self perpetuating......... generally the only ones that cant see that are the ones perpetuating it lol..

If you don't enjoy it don't join in, if others do (for whatever reason) that's their choice. I'm sure you can find plenty of less boring things to do on a Sunday morning.

[anonymous-user]

don'tbesilly said:

davepoth said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

I am pointing out that a trade agreement with the EU is not the same as access to the single market. That is fact not speculation.

The EU could of course agree a unique deal with the UK which is somewhere between the two. Personally I don't see that happening.

Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Sunday 23 October 08:48

Can you define for us your understanding of

1)access to the Single Market

and

2)membership of the Single Market

Please? I've just looked at the argument over the last three pages and it looks to come down to semantics.

Favoured technique of PM, word play is something he excels at.

How would that work if you used the words, Full access and Restricted access ?

[don'tbesilly]

MG CHRIS said:

Some good news today Nissan is set to announce its to build the new suv model at the sunderland car plant didn't the remainers say sunderland would lose out on jobs if we left because Nissan would leave. Not another lie by the remainers by any chance is it?

////ajd' s raison d'etre, he'll be most amused............not.

[PurpleMoonlight]

davepoth said:

Can you define for us your understanding of

1)access to the Single Market

and

2)membership of the Single Market

Please? I've just looked at the argument over the last three pages and it looks to come down to semantics.

There is no such thing as access to the single market.

You are either in the single market with the four freedoms or you have a trade agreement with the EU (or not and default to WTO tariffs).

Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Sunday 23 October 11:14

[don'tbesilly]

Ghibli said:

don'tbesilly said:

davepoth said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

I am pointing out that a trade agreement with the EU is not the same as access to the single market. That is fact not speculation.

The EU could of course agree a unique deal with the UK which is somewhere between the two. Personally I don't see that happening.

Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Sunday 23 October 08:48

Can you define for us your understanding of

1)access to the Single Market

and

2)membership of the Single Market

Please? I've just looked at the argument over the last three pages and it looks to come down to semantics.

Favoured technique of PM, word play is something he excels at.

How would that work if you used the words, Full access and Restricted access ?

Ask PM, we have asked him to clarify,or did you miss what was quoted?

[B'stard Child]

don'tbesilly said:

MG CHRIS said:

Some good news today Nissan is set to announce its to build the new suv model at the sunderland car plant didn't the remainers say sunderland would lose out on jobs if we left because Nissan would leave. Not another lie by the remainers by any chance is it?

////ajd' s raison d'etre, he'll be most amused............not.

It will be down to the huge "Bung" that TM gave them at a recent meeting

[PurpleMoonlight]

don'tbesilly said:

Favoured technique of PM, word play is something he excels at.

Or you could look at the links I posted earlier and then you might understand the difference.

[Garvin]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Garvin said:

OK, you like to point things out as fact.

There appears to be different interpretations on 'access' to the single market where some equate this as being a member. It is not meant that way.

The clip in your link defines the EU rules for being a member of the single market and alludes to there being absolutely no 'free trade' of any services without FMOL. Whereas that may be 'fact' for all services without restriction are there any trade agreements which include some services without FMOL?

Besides which, any current 'EU rules' can be changed if the EU sees benefits in them can they not?

Therefore, is it not possible that the UK could agree a FTA with the EU that contained some services? Indeed, what if some financial contribution was included in a trade agreement to cover services? Are these all beyond the realms of possibility?

Are all your assertions water tight?

I am pointing out that a trade agreement with the EU is not the same as access to the single market. That is fact not speculation.

The EU could of course agree a unique deal with the UK which is somewhere between the two. Personally I don't see that happening.

Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Sunday 23 October 08:48

I have no doubt that according to your interpretation of the word 'access' in this context you believe it to be fact. As explained earlier, some posters are not equating access with membership and believe that a unique trade deal with access to some if not all the services that exist within the single market, even if that means paying a contribution to escape the FMOL 'requirement', is a possibility.

I do not believe that most people who voted for Brexit believed they could retain full membership of the single market. I also do not believe that most people who voted for Brexit wanted a 'hard' Brexit, although there are probably more 'hard' brexiteers than those believing full membership of the single market could be retained.

In other words I believe (but obviously can't prove so never term it as fact) that most Brexiteers believed that sense would prevail and that a sensible 'deal' would be concluded in the best economic interests of both UK and EU - a negotiated mutually acceptable compromise, just like all trade deals.

You have an obvious opinion that there will be no 'access' to services within the single market. You are entitled to that opinion, but that is all it is, it is not fact as you keep asserting.

Edited by Garvin on Sunday 23 October 11:13

[nosmallfiat]

Why can't we have a simple trade agreement without freedom of movement? If the EU in its current guise is so great then why would us leaving with a simple trade agreement make anybody else want to leave?

Could it be that most don't want all of the conditions of membership but accept if for the money? In which case is it a small but powerful minority with the European dream that almost bribe the rest in and then make it incredibly difficult to get out?

We're effectively being blackmailed. We want what we originally voted for.

If we do end up significantly weaker post Brexit the blame should lie with those who gave away more and more of our freedom to the EU without a further public vote rather than Theresa May who is in an impossible position.

[davepoth]

PurpleMoonlight said:

There is no such thing as access to the single market.

Your are either in the single market with the four freedoms or you have a trade agreement with the EU (or not and default to WTO tariffs).

The IFS disagree:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8411

As does Daniel Hannan:

http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2016...

And Plaid Cymru:

http://www.plaid2016.wales/fm_singlemarket

And the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sheila-lawlor/brex...

And the Lib Dems:

http://www.libdems.org.uk/corbyn-single-market

And by extension Jeremy Corbyn:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/09/wh...

I could go on. The point is that the debate has been framed in terms of Membership (where we are now) and Access (something less than we have now). Arguing with people because you want to use the wrong words to describe something is not helpful.

[PurpleMoonlight]

nosmallfiat said:

Why can't we have a simple trade agreement without freedom of movement?

We can, and very likely will eventually.

[davepoth]

PurpleMoonlight said:

nosmallfiat said:

Why can't we have a simple trade agreement without freedom of movement?

We can, and very likely will eventually.

So that's access to the Single Market then?

[PurpleMoonlight]

davepoth said:

The IFS disagree:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8411



I could go on. The point is that the debate has been framed in terms of Membership (where we are now) and Access (something less than we have now). Arguing with people because you want to use the wrong words to describe something is not helpful.

I disagree, using the incorrect terms encourages confusion and misunderstanding.

I quote from the link you posted (sorry I didn't read all the others).

"Membership versus access

Full ‘membership’ of the EU Single Market substantially reduces the costs of trade within the EU. Whilst some costs such as transport costs and cultural barriers such as language remain, the Single Market eliminates tariffs (border taxes) and customs checks and, importantly, reduces non-tariff barriers, which are particularly important for services trade. Whilst any country has ‘access’ to the EU as an export destination, membership of the Single Market reduces ‘non-tariff’ barriers in a way that no existing trade deal, customs union or free trade area does."

Does this not support my understanding?

Note they state 'access' to the EU not 'access' to the Single Market which is what I am saying.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Garvin said:

You have an obvious opinion that there will be no 'access' to services within the single market. You are entitled to that opinion, but that is all it is, it is not fact as you keep asserting.

It is currently fact as the EU have stated several times there will be no special deal and we are either in the single market or out.

[sidicks]

mike9009 said:

I thought the whole premise of the referendum was to leave the EU? Which by definition meant Brexiters were voting to

1. Remove freedom of movement
2. Leave the freedom of trade within the EU
3. Leave the EU regulations

Are some Brexiters suggesting they would like to keep the freedom of trade, that they voted against some four months ago?


Mike

It would appear that you don't understand what 'freedom of trade' means.

[davepoth]

PurpleMoonlight said:

I quote from the link you posted (sorry I didn't read all the others).

Oh well.