Will JC Juncker get the chop?

[jjlynn27]

Puggit said:

I said arguably

We, the people of Europe, voted for the EU parliament. It is the EU parliament that proposed Juncker. It is not dissimilar to the way the Tories select their leader.

Precisely. To go on a tangent and discuss how it's not 'actually' democratically elected is really clutching straws.

On the other hand, I doubt that anyone will miss him when he finally fks off in 3yrs.

[Rovinghawk]

jjlynn27 said:

Precisely. To go on a tangent and discuss how it's not 'actually' democratically elected is really clutching straws.

I've asked for a statement to be proven- rather than clutching at straws this is the sine qua non of debate.

Just dismissing other's points of view is how children argue.

[Otispunkmeyer]

king arthur said:

el stovey said:

The Dutch woman on earlier seemed much more thoughtful and wanted to leave the door open.

She seemed to speak a lot without really saying anything new though.

This is how they all go on. SOP. Lots of talking but not actually saying anything. Collect your wonga for showing up and go home for some beers in the garden. Job jobbed.

As for J C Juncker... I suspect you'd have to pry his cold dead body out of the throne before he gives it up.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/05/prime-m...

I mean what? prime ministers listen to their countrymen too much? What are they supposed to be doing? Oh yeah following your instructions to the letter Mr Juncker. Not. Reading that as well it is clear to me that he and others really see the EU project as their big mark on history and that is what its all about. Getting their names in the history books. Pure vanity. Not the kind of people we need.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 29th June 17:11

[mattmurdock]

Rovinghawk said:

I've asked for a statement to be proven- rather than clutching at straws this is the sine qua non of debate.

Just dismissing other's points of view is how children argue.

Again, a party of potential MEPs put him forward as their candidate during the election campaign (based on their internal 'leadership' election). They were then democratically elected as MEPs and had the plurality of seats in the European Parliament, and he was therefore put forward for the EU Commissioner job.

The elected national heads of government then voted on our behalf 26 to 2 for him to be nominated to the Parliament, where elected MEPs then voted 422 to 250 in favour of him.

So, he campaigned for election, his party was elected by the populations of their respective countries, and in turn he was then voted in by representatives of the populations of these countries.

Where exactly in that process did you get disenfranchised?

[garagewidow]

Pan Pan Pan said:

JC Juncker the Sepp Blatter of the EU.

fanny blatter more like....

[John145]

mattmurdock said:

John145 said:

What powers does the PM have that any other MP does not have?

Is that a serious question? I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand how someone can be so vocal about the EU and yet not seem to understand how their own government works.

Only a question as people are getting all excited about having a new PM that has relatively little actual power.

Yes the direction of the government will change but so long as it's within the manifesto of election, it has the mandate of the people.

No one votes for a President or head of state, only MPs. If CMD did not win his constituency he would not be PM.

[Otispunkmeyer]

EddieSteadyGo said:

Puggit said:

Jockman said:

On EU monetary policy
"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

And yet these dark debates are off the table for Brexit. The UK cannot pull the trigger on Article 50 until it knows the skeleton of an exit deal.

He has very cleverly turned the loaded gun back at us.

They can stamp their feet as much as they want. There is plenty of time to run yet before we should feel under pressure to trigger article 50.

I was personally surprised that Juncker stated he had banned all Commisioners from discussing Brexit with the UK. That tells you a lot about how he is feeling at the moment... this kind of attitude is self defeating, unrealistic and will unravel... mark my words.

Yes it is a very emotional and not very mature reaction...he is not getting his own way. Ergo toys, pram, out of.

[Otispunkmeyer]

johnxjsc1985 said:

just watching the EU Parliament and I can see why nothing ever gets done in a hurry. They must put something in the Coffee to keep them awake. Juncker threatening people in the Country was a factor in the leave Vote .
Farage must be made of Steel sitting there with eyes burning into him

I have to say Nigel is a bit of a goon and I have no time for UKIP (and we probably have no need for them now). But I do like him when he is present in is roll as supreme troll at EP meetings. Damn he's worth the money just to send him over there and wind them all up. What a gas!

[mattmurdock]

John145 said:

Only a question as people are getting all excited about having a new PM that has relatively little actual power.

Yes the direction of the government will change but so long as it's within the manifesto of election, it has the mandate of the people.

No one votes for a President or head of state, only MPs. If CMD did not win his constituency he would not be PM.

Given the PM has sole authority over appointing the Cabinet and senior civil servants, and can enforce 'collective responsibility', they effectively can shape policy for the whole government. Why do you think so many people blame Blair for the Iraq War?

Yes, you are correct that if they step outside the manifesto too much, or annoy their back-benchers too much, there could be a move to change the PM, but that would be unlikely.

Technically the PM does not have to be an MP, although it would be frowned upon these days.

[Otispunkmeyer]

alfie2244 said:

Sam All said:

Puggit said:

Juncker strikes again:

“If someone from the ‘Remain’ camp will become British PM, this has to be done in two weeks after his appointment,” he said. If they are from the Brexit camp, then it should be “the day after”.

Mate - you're not in charge of this and have no power to enforce it.

Reincarnation of some dictator.

Don't know about that but have you seen a photo of Guy Verhofstat?

God, when you look like Gollum with hair no wonder you turn into a power hungry tt.

[Rovinghawk]

mattmurdock said:

Where exactly in that process did you get disenfranchised?

If you think he's in place by democratic process then we should (politely) agree to differ.

[alfie2244]

Otispunkmeyer said:

alfie2244 said:

Sam All said:

Puggit said:

Juncker strikes again:

“If someone from the ‘Remain’ camp will become British PM, this has to be done in two weeks after his appointment,” he said. If they are from the Brexit camp, then it should be “the day after”.

Mate - you're not in charge of this and have no power to enforce it.

Reincarnation of some dictator.

Don't know about that but have you seen a photo of Guy Verhofstat?

God, when you look like Gollum with hair no wonder you turn into a power hungry tt.

Thank heavens only a childish, immature person would draw him with a moustache on MS Paint or similar.

[mattmurdock]

Rovinghawk said:

If you think he's in place by democratic process then we should (politely) agree to differ.

Given you said:

Rovinghawk said:

I've asked for a statement to be proven

Seems a bit rum just to say we should agree to differ when you offer no counter position other than 'it just isn't'.

Were you expecting to be able to vote for him directly?

How is his appointment any less democratic for you personally than a person being elected MP in a safe seat which you have no say in, and then voted in as Prime Minister by the rest of his or her party?

[wc98]

jjlynn27 said:

wc98 said:

what department in brussels did you say you worked in ?

Why do you post things like that? Everyone was having normal discussion, really no need for snide comments. Plenty of other threads for bickering ans scoring imaginary 'win/lose' points.

in this case you are correct, apologies to matt and all, this is one of the threads that has remained relatively sensible.

[mattmurdock]

wc98 said:

in this case you are correct, apologies to matt and all, this is one of the threads that has remained relatively sensible.

Appreciate that wc98, happy to try and keep this one sensible.

[Rovinghawk]

mattmurdock said:

Seems a bit rum just to say we should agree to differ when you offer no counter position other than 'it just isn't'.

A statement was made without proof. I can dismiss it with the same lack of proof.

mattmurdock said:

Were you expecting to be able to vote for him directly?

Why not? It's no different to voting for a president.

mattmurdock said:

How is his appointment any less democratic for you personally than a person being elected MP in a safe seat which you have no say in, and then voted in as Prime Minister by the rest of his or her party?

The MP was voted in by the electorate (at least in part). Who in this country voted for Juncker?

[wc98]

mattmurdock said:

Appreciate that wc98, happy to try and keep this one sensible.

thanks for accepting the apology. we can argue around the level of democracy surrounding the election process of eu officials all day and i suspect we would still disagree. there is however a very real problem regarding how the "one size fits all" legislation and enforcement of it works, or rather doesn't. may well be a topic for another thread though.

[Jockman]

Otispunkmeyer said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

Puggit said:

Jockman said:

On EU monetary policy
"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

And yet these dark debates are off the table for Brexit. The UK cannot pull the trigger on Article 50 until it knows the skeleton of an exit deal.

He has very cleverly turned the loaded gun back at us.

They can stamp their feet as much as they want. There is plenty of time to run yet before we should feel under pressure to trigger article 50.

I was personally surprised that Juncker stated he had banned all Commisioners from discussing Brexit with the UK. That tells you a lot about how he is feeling at the moment... this kind of attitude is self defeating, unrealistic and will unravel... mark my words.

Yes it is a very emotional and not very mature reaction...he is not getting his own way. Ergo toys, pram, out of.

Philip Hammond - a Remainer - clearly stated that the UK talks to its European colleagues on a daily basis. Juncker cannot control this.

[Jockman]

whoami said:

jjlynn27 said:

Puggit said:

Jockman said:

On EU monetary policy
"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

And yet these dark debates are off the table for Brexit. The UK cannot pull the trigger on Article 50 until it knows the skeleton of an exit deal.

He has very cleverly turned the loaded gun back at us.

I don't think that anyone disagrees on Junker. I do think that once Art50 is invoked UK will be in weak negotiating position, as the clock starts ticking. I did expect them to say no formal negotiation before Art.50, but did expect backroom 'negotiations' to start straight away.

By the time Article 50 is invoked, the main deals will already have been done.

Correct. Talks have been happening since last Friday according to Osborn's statement on Monday am.

[Jockman]

jjlynn27 said:

whoami said:

jjlynn27 said:

Puggit said:

Jockman said:

On EU monetary policy
"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

And yet these dark debates are off the table for Brexit. The UK cannot pull the trigger on Article 50 until it knows the skeleton of an exit deal.

He has very cleverly turned the loaded gun back at us.

I don't think that anyone disagrees on Junker. I do think that once Art50 is invoked UK will be in weak negotiating position, as the clock starts ticking. I did expect them to say no formal negotiation before Art.50, but did expect backroom 'negotiations' to start straight away.

By the time Article 50 is invoked, the main deals will already have been done.

I really doubt that (I wish it was true). As before, think about it, the EU is in much stronger position once Art.50 clock starts ticking. And the have no desire to even hint at anything. Why would they put themselves in anything but strongest negotiating position possible.

Because they crave certainty.