Will JC Juncker get the chop?

[Dr Jekyll]

mattmurdock said:

How is his appointment any less democratic for you personally than a person being elected MP in a safe seat which you have no say in, and then voted in as Prime Minister by the rest of his or her party?

That's just it, John Major was 'elected' party leader (by the party) then became PM. But he couldn't be described as a democratically elected PM until his second term when his party with him as leader was elected by the population at large.

By your line of argument King Alfred was democratically elected.

[mattmurdock]

Rovinghawk said:

The MP was voted in by the electorate (at least in part). Who in this country voted for Juncker?

I have to give that one to you, as the European Parliament party he leads has no UK MEPs in its membership, and Cameron voted against him. So no-one in this country voted for him.

But the point put forward was not whether the UK electorate voted for him, it was whether he was democratically elected. As per my earlier example, there are lots of people in this country who did not vote for Cameron to be an MP or PM, but it does not mean that Cameron was not democratically elected.

[mattmurdock]

Dr Jekyll said:

That's just it, John Major was 'elected' party leader (by the party) then became PM. But he couldn't be described as a democratically elected PM until his second term when his party with him as leader was elected by the population at large.

By your line of argument King Alfred was democratically elected.

So you are suggesting that the next PM will not have been democratically elected? We gave sovereignty to the MPs and they will choose a leader to be PM, how is that not democracy?

[Dr Jekyll]

mattmurdock said:

Dr Jekyll said:

That's just it, John Major was 'elected' party leader (by the party) then became PM. But he couldn't be described as a democratically elected PM until his second term when his party with him as leader was elected by the population at large.

By your line of argument King Alfred was democratically elected.

So you are suggesting that the next PM will not have been democratically elected? We gave sovereignty to the MPs and they will choose a leader to be PM, how is that not democracy?

No. No more than Gordon Brown or King Alfred.

[mattmurdock]

Dr Jekyll said:

No. No more than Gordon Brown or King Alfred.

Based on that definition we aren't really living in a democracy then, I must say I find that a bit of a strange view.

[jjlynn27]

Jockman said:

Because they crave certainty.

Again doubt that. Nothing to gain. That kind of certainty will not calm markets. It will do nothing for the economy , and our side is still assembling the team. Unless our team was already assembled and ready to work on Friday. Just not seeing that.

[Jockman]

jjlynn27 said:

Jockman said:

Because they crave certainty.

Again doubt that. Nothing to gain. That kind of certainty will not calm markets. It will do nothing for the economy , and our side is still assembling the team. Unless our team was already assembled and ready to work on Friday. Just not seeing that.

At the moment the UK has a veto. The EU has every reason to see a quick resolution to this matter. It has everything to gain.

[jjlynn27]

Jockman said:

jjlynn27 said:

Jockman said:

Because they crave certainty.

Again doubt that. Nothing to gain. That kind of certainty will not calm markets. It will do nothing for the economy , and our side is still assembling the team. Unless our team was already assembled and ready to work on Friday. Just not seeing that.

At the moment the UK has a veto. The EU has every reason to see a quick resolution to this matter. It has everything to gain.

Uk is not even invited for the next meeting. I'd say that both sides need to see quick resolution to the this in order to have any semblance of certainty. UK, as far as I can see has one bargaining chip, and that is to decide when to start Art50. At the gongs, EUs position becomes much stronger. Saying all that, dont see that UK is gaining anything with the delays past getting new PM and negotiating team.

[Rovinghawk]

mattmurdock said:

Based on that definition we aren't really living in a democracy then

Hopefully the situation is about to improve in that respect.

[loafer123]

Jockman said:

jjlynn27 said:

Jockman said:

Because they crave certainty.

Again doubt that. Nothing to gain. That kind of certainty will not calm markets. It will do nothing for the economy , and our side is still assembling the team. Unless our team was already assembled and ready to work on Friday. Just not seeing that.

At the moment the UK has a veto. The EU has every reason to see a quick resolution to this matter. It has everything to gain.

Does our veto fall away as soon as we invoke A50, or when we leave?

[Jockman]

loafer123 said:

Jockman said:

jjlynn27 said:

Jockman said:

Because they crave certainty.

Again doubt that. Nothing to gain. That kind of certainty will not calm markets. It will do nothing for the economy , and our side is still assembling the team. Unless our team was already assembled and ready to work on Friday. Just not seeing that.

At the moment the UK has a veto. The EU has every reason to see a quick resolution to this matter. It has everything to gain.

Does our veto fall away as soon as we invoke A50, or when we leave?

Good question. I would assume at A50 stage.....otherwise we would just veto anything they offered we didn't like????

Happy to be corrected

[Puggit]

Jockman said:

Good question. I would assume at A50 stage.....otherwise we would just veto anything they offered we didn't like????

Happy to be corrected

Guido was indicating it would remain in place

[loafer123]

Certainly would strengthen our negotiating power.

Quick sensible deal or 2 years of stasis by which time the EU is dead.

[Jockman]

Puggit said:

Jockman said:

Good question. I would assume at A50 stage.....otherwise we would just veto anything they offered we didn't like????

Happy to be corrected

Guido was indicating it would remain in place

Jeez that would be a strong bargaining chip.

[anonymous-user]

Until such time as we have formally left at the end of the Art 50 process, we have full membership privileges and responsibilities. So we have to keep sending the money and applying the laws, but we also get the benefits and all the options the treaties provide.

[jjlynn27]

Jockman said:

Jeez that would be a strong bargaining chip.

I don't understand that logic. As soon as you start the clock regardless of veto UK is in a lot weaker negotiating position. And at the end of it they have all their agreements in place and UK defaults to WTO. If I'm not missing anything that Art50. is overwhelmingly biased towards EU rather than any country invoking it. Regardless of vote.

[loafer123]

jjlynn27 said:

Jockman said:

Jeez that would be a strong bargaining chip.

I don't understand that logic. As soon as you start the clock regardless of veto UK is in a lot weaker negotiating position. And at the end of it they have all their agreements in place and UK defaults to WTO. If I'm not missing anything that Art50. is overwhelmingly biased towards EU rather than any country invoking it. Regardless of vote.

Two years of no change would be horrific for the EU. They have more to lose than us.

[Jockman]

jjlynn27 said:

Jockman said:

Jeez that would be a strong bargaining chip.

I don't understand that logic. As soon as you start the clock regardless of veto UK is in a lot weaker negotiating position. And at the end of it they have all their agreements in place and UK defaults to WTO. If I'm not missing anything that Art50. is overwhelmingly biased towards EU rather than any country invoking it. Regardless of vote.

So long as A50 isnt invoked, UK is in the driving seat. Once Art 50 is invoked my belief was that UK was in the hands of the EU, hence my viewpoint that the main points will be sealed before this happens.

The continued availability of a UK veto adds a layer of protection.

[jjlynn27]

loafer123 said:

jjlynn27 said:

Jockman said:

Jeez that would be a strong bargaining chip.

I don't understand that logic. As soon as you start the clock regardless of veto UK is in a lot weaker negotiating position. And at the end of it they have all their agreements in place and UK defaults to WTO. If I'm not missing anything that Art50. is overwhelmingly biased towards EU rather than any country invoking it. Regardless of vote.

Two years of no change would be horrific for the EU. They have more to lose than us.

I didn't hear any companies looking to relocate to london because of Brexit. What's done is done, and as much as I disagree with it, now it's the time to get whitehall machine in gear, pick the best people, make a plan and go for it, while doing that, arrange free cruise for Junker and Farage, possible in a double booked room. With no working telephones or other means of communication.

[jjlynn27]

Jockman said:

jjlynn27 said:

Jockman said:

Jeez that would be a strong bargaining chip.

I don't understand that logic. As soon as you start the clock regardless of veto UK is in a lot weaker negotiating position. And at the end of it they have all their agreements in place and UK defaults to WTO. If I'm not missing anything that Art50. is overwhelmingly biased towards EU rather than any country invoking it. Regardless of vote.

So long as A50 isnt invoked, UK is in the driving seat. Once Art 50 is invoked my belief was that UK was in the hands of the EU, hence my viewpoint that the main points will be sealed before this happens.

The continued availability of a UK veto adds a layer of protection.

Completely agree with the 'driving seat while a50 is not invoked'. 100%. But think about it. Why would EU weaken their hand by even hinting at possible outcomes. It gives even more reason to UK to delay invocation. I think pushing for early invocation is to be expected from EU. Totally logical. Bad Cop Junker-do it today, Not-so-Bad-Cop Merkel, ok fine, get new PM then invoke, but no delays. I don't think that veto is such powerful tool once a50 is invoked. It's a the same time nuclear, and meh option.

Saying that we are probably equally far from the exact scenario how it will all play out.

I still think that huge majority of people will be disappointed with the solution, whatever that might be.