Will JC Juncker get the chop?
Discussion
CrutyRammers said:
Indeed they are. That's before you get on to such crazyness as those who are "lucky" enough to have the speaker or deputy speakers as their MP don't get any parliamentary votes at all. There is much wrong with our system.
However, in the case of Juncker, the entire population of the UK was disenfranchised.
Now, your argument is of the form "X is a bit bad, so you may as well have Y, which is twice as bad". As I've said a number of times before, you don't make the imperfect better by adding an extra layer which is worse on top of it. First secure what we have, then make it better.
ETA - for clarity, I think that people should (at least) have direct representation in votes on policy. That means, at most one layer removed from power. Not voting for someone who votes for someone who votes for someone who then gets to decide.
How exactly is it 'twice as bad' though? The representative democracy we have is functionally equivalent to the representative democracy in the EU, it is just the EU has a bigger population. Effectively your argument is that we should devolve power down into smaller and smaller populations. Where do you draw the line?However, in the case of Juncker, the entire population of the UK was disenfranchised.
Now, your argument is of the form "X is a bit bad, so you may as well have Y, which is twice as bad". As I've said a number of times before, you don't make the imperfect better by adding an extra layer which is worse on top of it. First secure what we have, then make it better.
ETA - for clarity, I think that people should (at least) have direct representation in votes on policy. That means, at most one layer removed from power. Not voting for someone who votes for someone who votes for someone who then gets to decide.
Edited by CrutyRammers on Tuesday 5th July 14:50
I have a direct representation in votes on policy (my MEP). The issue you seem to have is that our MEPs have a more diluted voice in the EU compared to the voice our MPs have in Westminster, but that is just a consequence of trying to work together with a larger number of people.
Puggit said:
Looks like Juncker is having his commissioners (or employees of them) write emails to our MPs telling them to disregard the referendum:
https://twitter.com/HenrySmithMP/status/7498827849...
I suspect this will become big news soon...
Clearly, Junker has been reading some of the shttps://twitter.com/HenrySmithMP/status/7498827849...
I suspect this will become big news soon...
te on these threads.
Merkel! What are you waiting for?mattmurdock said:
CrutyRammers said:
Indeed they are. That's before you get on to such crazyness as those who are "lucky" enough to have the speaker or deputy speakers as their MP don't get any parliamentary votes at all. There is much wrong with our system.
However, in the case of Juncker, the entire population of the UK was disenfranchised.
Now, your argument is of the form "X is a bit bad, so you may as well have Y, which is twice as bad". As I've said a number of times before, you don't make the imperfect better by adding an extra layer which is worse on top of it. First secure what we have, then make it better.
ETA - for clarity, I think that people should (at least) have direct representation in votes on policy. That means, at most one layer removed from power. Not voting for someone who votes for someone who votes for someone who then gets to decide.
How exactly is it 'twice as bad' though? The representative democracy we have is functionally equivalent to the representative democracy in the EU, it is just the EU has a bigger population. Effectively your argument is that we should devolve power down into smaller and smaller populations. Where do you draw the line?However, in the case of Juncker, the entire population of the UK was disenfranchised.
Now, your argument is of the form "X is a bit bad, so you may as well have Y, which is twice as bad". As I've said a number of times before, you don't make the imperfect better by adding an extra layer which is worse on top of it. First secure what we have, then make it better.
ETA - for clarity, I think that people should (at least) have direct representation in votes on policy. That means, at most one layer removed from power. Not voting for someone who votes for someone who votes for someone who then gets to decide.
Edited by CrutyRammers on Tuesday 5th July 14:50
I have a direct representation in votes on policy (my MEP). The issue you seem to have is that our MEPs have a more diluted voice in the EU compared to the voice our MPs have in Westminster, but that is just a consequence of trying to work together with a larger number of people.
You don't have direct representation on the commission, which is where policy originates. You don't have direct representation on the council. You have direct representation in a reviewing body only. As said, for the commission, you vote for someone who votes for someone who votes for someone who then has the power. That's several layers too removed IMO. It's not "functionally equivalent" to our own, it's fundamentally different. The parliaments have different jobs, we have no commission.
As for the rest, yes of course it's a "where do you draw the line" issue. I chose to draw it at the level of a country, because they are convenient units of people with a similar culture, language, history, and political systems.
CrutyRammers said:
I said "of the form ... twice as bad", not "this is exactly twice as bad as that". It's an illustration. Substitute "worse" for "twice as bad" if you like.
You don't have direct representation on the commission, which is where policy originates. You don't have direct representation on the council. You have direct representation in a reviewing body only. As said, for the commission, you vote for someone who votes for someone who votes for someone who then has the power. That's several layers too removed IMO. It's not "functionally equivalent" to our own, it's fundamentally different. The parliaments have different jobs, we have no commission.
As for the rest, yes of course it's a "where do you draw the line" issue. I chose to draw it at the level of a country, because they are convenient units of people with a similar culture, language, history, and political systems.
The Commission suggests policy, but it is the Parliament that votes on it. The Parliament can also propose legislation to the Commission (although I take the point that the Commission does not have to put that legislation forwards).You don't have direct representation on the commission, which is where policy originates. You don't have direct representation on the council. You have direct representation in a reviewing body only. As said, for the commission, you vote for someone who votes for someone who votes for someone who then has the power. That's several layers too removed IMO. It's not "functionally equivalent" to our own, it's fundamentally different. The parliaments have different jobs, we have no commission.
As for the rest, yes of course it's a "where do you draw the line" issue. I chose to draw it at the level of a country, because they are convenient units of people with a similar culture, language, history, and political systems.
The Commission does not have any voting power, the voting power is in the hands of the Parliament (and the Council i.e. the elected heads of state). I'd call that more than a 'reviewing body'. If the Parliament votes something down, then it will not become law, regardless of what the Commission would like.
If you don't like the regulations coming from the EU, then hold your MEP responsible.
mattmurdock said:
If you don't like the regulations coming from the EU, then hold your MEP responsible.
Holding them responsible might work if they could actually influence things. When all British MEPs account for less than 10% of all MEPs, they are not going to hold a large amount of influence.
The thing is that the EU top brass never get the chop from a fk up. that leads MEPS to be same....
That's the whole point. They should.
Now it is the UK whole fault for Brexit when instead they might be better looking what they hav edone that this has happened.
Greece not leaving and being cowed down obviously pandered to their superiority.
Note I am only talking here EU politics and not whats best for DE, FR, UK,, ES, PT, IE etc etc
k up. that leads MEPS to be same....That's the whole point. They should.
Now it is the UK whole fault for Brexit when instead they might be better looking what they hav edone that this has happened.
Greece not leaving and being cowed down obviously pandered to their superiority.
Note I am only talking here EU politics and not whats best for DE, FR, UK,, ES, PT, IE etc etc
Edited by Gandahar on Tuesday 5th July 17:41
bp1 said:
mattmurdock said:
If you don't like the regulations coming from the EU, then hold your MEP responsible.
Holding them responsible might work if they could actually influence things. When all British MEPs account for less than 10% of all MEPs, they are not going to hold a large amount of influence.
Perhaps instead of sticking our fingers up to the EU and voting in MEPs who couldn't be bothered to try and get some influence with other countries/parties we should have voted in MEPs who could engage on the issues and build some cross-party support.
bp1 said:
Holding them responsible might work if they could actually influence things.
When all British MEPs account for less than 10% of all MEPs, they are not going to hold a large amount of influence.
Please check your facts. Voting of UK MEPs has been very much aligned with voting outcomes. IIRC UK was the second 'most aligned' country with the outcomes. When all British MEPs account for less than 10% of all MEPs, they are not going to hold a large amount of influence.
They also form groups with other MPs. It's not like you have 28 options to vote for.
Back on topic; don't know if he'll get the chop. I hope he does. He's an embarrassment.
Gandahar said:
How do I hold an MEP outside the UK responsible?
How do I hold an MP outside of my constituency responsible? I can't vote them out, can I?I can petition I guess, or try and convince their constituents that they need to be removed (exactly the same as I could for an MEP outside the UK).
mattmurdock said:
Gandahar said:
How do I hold an MEP outside the UK responsible?
How do I hold an MP outside of my constituency responsible? I can't vote them out, can I?I can petition I guess, or try and convince their constituents that they need to be removed (exactly the same as I could for an MEP outside the UK).
Hence why the Scots seem to be trying for both being local. Until recently.
Gandahar said:
I could say it is better to have someone not held accountable directly, but closer to home, than someone not accountable but 2000 miles away.
Hence why the Scots seem to be trying for both being local. Until recently.
So you were in favour of Scottish Independence Hence why the Scots seem to be trying for both being local. Until recently.
?I fail to see the difference if neither are accountable, doesn't matter (in today's global and technological age) whether they are next door or 6,000 miles away.
What matters is whether I had a vote to elect them, and in the case of both my MP and my MEP I did.
mattmurdock said:
The Commission suggests policy, but it is the Parliament that votes on it. The Parliament can also propose legislation to the Commission (although I take the point that the Commission does not have to put that legislation forwards).
The Commission does not have any voting power, the voting power is in the hands of the Parliament (and the Council i.e. the elected heads of state). I'd call that more than a 'reviewing body'. If the Parliament votes something down, then it will not become law, regardless of what the Commission would like.
Remind me how the parliamentary votes on the Greek bailouts and recent deal with Turkey went. Oh that's right, they don't bother with such things for the really big issues.The Commission does not have any voting power, the voting power is in the hands of the Parliament (and the Council i.e. the elected heads of state). I'd call that more than a 'reviewing body'. If the Parliament votes something down, then it will not become law, regardless of what the Commission would like.
mattmurdock said:
If you don't like the regulations coming from the EU, then hold your MEP responsible.
Even better, I held the whole lot responsible, and voted leave.mattmurdock said:
So you were in favour of Scottish Independence ?
I fail to see the difference if neither are accountable, doesn't matter (in today's global and technological age) whether they are next door or 6,000 miles away.
What matters is whether I had a vote to elect them, and in the case of both my MP and my MEP I did.
But not the commissioners.?I fail to see the difference if neither are accountable, doesn't matter (in today's global and technological age) whether they are next door or 6,000 miles away.
What matters is whether I had a vote to elect them, and in the case of both my MP and my MEP I did.
Ultimately, you are obviously happy with your voice becoming ever smaller and more ignored. Great, if that's what you want, but then you may as well have a king or emperor and have done with it. The idea of "holding MEPs accountable" is, in practical terms, pretty laughable. The barrier to actually campaigning against one is massive, not least of which because of general apathy about the whole thing. And even if you did manage to change one, any effect of that is going to be not noticable.
I want more of a say and more accountability amongst those who rule. I want more public engagement with how the country is run. The EU model proves to increase apathy, not engagement.
mattmurdock said:
If you don't like the regulations coming from the EU, then hold your MEP responsible.
The issue with the EU is not just with the individual regulations but the fact they are making them. It doesn't bother me particularly how powerful my vacuum cleaner is. What bothers me that the EU thinks that what cleaner I buy, with my money, to clean my house, with the electricity I pay for, is their business rather than mine. Dr Jekyll said:
mattmurdock said:
If you don't like the regulations coming from the EU, then hold your MEP responsible.
The issue with the EU is not just with the individual regulations but the fact they are making them. It doesn't bother me particularly how powerful my vacuum cleaner is. What bothers me that the EU thinks that what cleaner I buy, with my money, to clean my house, with the electricity I pay for, is their business rather than mine. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff