Ultimatum EU Blueprint - The Final Solution
Discussion
mattmurdock said:
Under the Lisbon treaty, if an EU citizen can get a petition of a million signatures, they can request legislation from the EU Commission. The EU Council and the EU Parliament, made up of elected representatives of EU citizens, can also request legislation from the EU Commission.
The Commission itself is made up of individuals nominated by the elected national leader of each member state, and they have to be approved by vote of the EU Parliament, also elected representatives. The Parliament can also dissolve the Commission if they are not happy with what they are doing, via a vote of no-confidence.
Yes, it is 'less' democratic because the EU Commission can refuse to initiate legislation if they don't want to (so they hold effectively the ultimate veto on EU law making). However, if they kept blocking a popular piece of legislation, the MEPs could vote them out.
I'm certain that a lot of the nonsense spread on these threads is due to populist soundbites, rather than anyone actually bothering to understand how it works.
i am certain that a lot of nonsense on these threads is spread by people that have a perception of how the eu should notionally operate that is far removed by how it actually works in practice .The Commission itself is made up of individuals nominated by the elected national leader of each member state, and they have to be approved by vote of the EU Parliament, also elected representatives. The Parliament can also dissolve the Commission if they are not happy with what they are doing, via a vote of no-confidence.
Yes, it is 'less' democratic because the EU Commission can refuse to initiate legislation if they don't want to (so they hold effectively the ultimate veto on EU law making). However, if they kept blocking a popular piece of legislation, the MEPs could vote them out.
I'm certain that a lot of the nonsense spread on these threads is due to populist soundbites, rather than anyone actually bothering to understand how it works.
mattmurdock said:
They had a mandate to stop austerity, not a mandate to leave the EU. Opinion polls at the time suggested a 70% 'remain' vote to stay in the EU. So they were between a rock and a hard place - they had to renegotiate the austerity, but they couldn't threaten to leave the EU as they would have had a hard time politically at home.
So it wasn't EU threats that kept them in, it was democracy
.
And it as democracy that took us out. So it wasn't EU threats that kept them in, it was democracy
.mattmurdock said:
They had a mandate to stop austerity, not a mandate to leave the EU. Opinion polls at the time suggested a 70% 'remain' vote to stay in the EU. So they were between a rock and a hard place - they had to renegotiate the austerity, but they couldn't threaten to leave the EU as they would have had a hard time politically at home.
So it wasn't EU threats that kept them in, it was democracy.
I'd say it was more necessity than anything.So it wasn't EU threats that kept them in, it was democracy
.wc98 said:
i am certain that a lot of nonsense on these threads is spread by people that have a perception of how the eu should notionally operate that is far removed by how it actually works in practice .
So I guess you are a member of either the Parliament, the Commission or the Council and can therefore speak with authority on the way it all actually works in practice 
?Edited by mattmurdock on Wednesday 29th June 16:17
Piersman2 said:
mattmurdock said:
They had a mandate to stop austerity, not a mandate to leave the EU. Opinion polls at the time suggested a 70% 'remain' vote to stay in the EU. So they were between a rock and a hard place - they had to renegotiate the austerity, but they couldn't threaten to leave the EU as they would have had a hard time politically at home.
So it wasn't EU threats that kept them in, it was democracy.
And it as democracy that took us out. So it wasn't EU threats that kept them in, it was democracy
.mattmurdock said:
'Usually get what they want'
'I'm not sure'
These seem to be concrete reasons for voting leave, no?
Yes, the EU may have tried to make it very difficult for the UK to maintain its status, but surely if it came down to an ultimatum between us and them, then we would simply trigger Article 50 and leave.
Given their desire for Federal Europe, surely their ambitions will extend to taking us over in the future anyway?
All people seem to be able to offer is vague assertions that the EU will eventually rule the world, and that somehow voting to leave is going to make us immune from that because 'we have got our sovereignty back'.
Can we keep it civil please ?'I'm not sure'
These seem to be concrete reasons for voting leave, no?
Yes, the EU may have tried to make it very difficult for the UK to maintain its status, but surely if it came down to an ultimatum between us and them, then we would simply trigger Article 50 and leave.
Given their desire for Federal Europe, surely their ambitions will extend to taking us over in the future anyway?
All people seem to be able to offer is vague assertions that the EU will eventually rule the world, and that somehow voting to leave is going to make us immune from that because 'we have got our sovereignty back'.
If you prefer - the EU federalists always get what they want. I am "sure" that the federalists will try their best to incorporate the UK in Federalist Europe. I'm "not sure" whether they'll succeed.
There is no doubt that the EU elite have always had a Federalist agenda going back to the 1950's when they were sponsored by the USA, and that their ultimate goal is to integrate all of the member states into a United States of Europe governed by Brussels. Do you have any doubts on that ?
These are not vague assertions.
mattmurdock said:
They had a mandate to stop austerity, not a mandate to leave the EU. Opinion polls at the time suggested a 70% 'remain' vote to stay in the EU. So they were between a rock and a hard place - they had to renegotiate the austerity, but they couldn't threaten to leave the EU as they would have had a hard time politically at home.
So it wasn't EU threats that kept them in, it was democracy.
The Greek referendum was very specifically a rejection of the EU bailout deal. Unfortunately it didn't achieve anything. The Greeks were still forced to accept a deal which put the interests of international speculators above those of the Greek people. So it wasn't EU threats that kept them in, it was democracy
.Actually it was EU threats that kept them in, or more accurately the ECB which threatened to close down the Greek banks if Greece didn't accept a flawed EU deal.
mattmurdock said:
wc98 said:
i am certain that a lot of nonsense on these threads is spread by people that have a perception of how the eu should notionally operate that is far removed by how it actually works in practice .
So I guess you are a member of either the Parliament, the Commission or the Council and can therefore speak with authority on the way it all actually works in practice ?Edited by mattmurdock on Wednesday 29th June 16:17
no . there are too many instances of rules being subverted by particular nations that appear to either go unpunished , or punished to a lesser degree than others. fisheries rules infringements , spanish solar power generators supplying "solar power" 24 hours a day to the grid. olive farm subsidies being paid for land areas greater than the country they are being paid to and many more instances of certain nations not playing by the rules.for me the entire eu machine seems less concerned with achieving anything tangible than furthering their own bureaucratic machine. in effect ever expanding bureaucracy appears to be the raison d'etre. the total number appears to be around 55,000 people that all require paying by the european tax payer. cut it down to sub 5k to promote global free trade ,manage co operative projects in science, technology and other fields and we have a purposeful organisation that can be measured on its achievements . most would be happy with that. what we have is an idealistic behemoth sucking the life out of europe and more and more people are seeing it for exactly this.
a question. do you think the uk will be the last nation to leave the eu ? the only way i can see anything changing is if one or two more decide to start the referendum process whilst we are negotiating our exit.then it finally dawns on them das projekt is kaput, even then the likes of juncker would plough on regardless imo.
wc98 said:
no . there are too many instances of rules being subverted by particular nations that appear to either go unpunished , or punished to a lesser degree than others. fisheries rules infringements , spanish solar power generators supplying "solar power" 24 hours a day to the grid. olive farm subsidies being paid for land areas greater than the country they are being paid to and many more instances of certain nations not playing by the rules.http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic...
fblm said:
You missed the big one, the one that had consequences far, far beyond a few billion lost to fraud; the stability and growth pact.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic...
wow ! thanks for that, very interesting read . one question. where did pimco get the huge amount of money required to buy that amount of government bonds . the numbers involved are astounding . the wider issue to me is when it all does go pop, i doubt being out of the political union will count for much unless it happens far enough in the future that all but a small part of our economy is disentangled from europe.http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic...
fblm said:
wc98 said:
no . there are too many instances of rules being subverted by particular nations that appear to either go unpunished , or punished to a lesser degree than others. fisheries rules infringements , spanish solar power generators supplying "solar power" 24 hours a day to the grid. olive farm subsidies being paid for land areas greater than the country they are being paid to and many more instances of certain nations not playing by the rules.http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic...
It just sounds like your issue is with Germany, France, Spain and Italy, not with the EU - they are playing the game, and we picked up our ball and went home.
mattmurdock said:
fblm said:
wc98 said:
no . there are too many instances of rules being subverted by particular nations that appear to either go unpunished , or punished to a lesser degree than others. fisheries rules infringements , spanish solar power generators supplying "solar power" 24 hours a day to the grid. olive farm subsidies being paid for land areas greater than the country they are being paid to and many more instances of certain nations not playing by the rules.http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic...
It just sounds like your issue is with Germany, France, Spain and Italy, not with the EU - they are playing the game, and we picked up our ball and went home.
All as per stated aims and methods by those at the helm of the EU ship, from Monnet to Mitterand to Juncker.
mattmurdock said:
fblm said:
wc98 said:
no . there are too many instances of rules being subverted by particular nations that appear to either go unpunished , or punished to a lesser degree than others. fisheries rules infringements , spanish solar power generators supplying "solar power" 24 hours a day to the grid. olive farm subsidies being paid for land areas greater than the country they are being paid to and many more instances of certain nations not playing by the rules.http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic...
It just sounds like your issue is with Germany, France, Spain and Italy, not with the EU - they are playing the game, and we picked up our ball and went home.
Greece was able to borrow huge sums at low interest rates because she was perceived to be tied to Germany.
don4l said:
mattmurdock said:
fblm said:
wc98 said:
no . there are too many instances of rules being subverted by particular nations that appear to either go unpunished , or punished to a lesser degree than others. fisheries rules infringements , spanish solar power generators supplying "solar power" 24 hours a day to the grid. olive farm subsidies being paid for land areas greater than the country they are being paid to and many more instances of certain nations not playing by the rules.http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-tic...
It just sounds like your issue is with Germany, France, Spain and Italy, not with the EU - they are playing the game, and we picked up our ball and went home.
Greece was able to borrow huge sums at low interest rates because she was perceived to be tied to Germany.
Sway said:
There is no contradiction. Just as with banned fiscal transfers, breaches of the stability pact help the integrationist cause - enabling crises to occur, for which the only proposed solution is more EU. The ECB is steadily gaining control through the debt it owns to the point where fiscal Union is not far from occurring fully.
All as per stated aims and methods by those at the helm of the EU ship, from Monnet to Mitterand to Juncker.
So adding more rules, breaking the rules, they all achieve the same thing?All as per stated aims and methods by those at the helm of the EU ship, from Monnet to Mitterand to Juncker.
You sound like the climate changers, temp goes up, temp goes down, all achieves the same thing apparently.
If you can't see that as a contradiction, then there is clear bias affecting your critical thinking.
Yes, the purpose of the EU is fiscal and political union.
Yes, we had already negotiated our way out of it before we voted to leave.
No, the EU Commission have no powers whatsoever to 'compel' us into greater fiscal or political union if we had stayed.
Yes, it appears your issue is more with the German and French governments than it is with the EU.
don4l said:
I think that you need to read the article again... but a bit more slowly.
Greece was able to borrow huge sums at low interest rates because she was perceived to be tied to Germany.
What on earth does that have to do with the statements wc98 was making, or the points I was making? Of course part of the point of the EU is to enable the countries to leverage their union, otherwise what is the point of fiscal union?Greece was able to borrow huge sums at low interest rates because she was perceived to be tied to Germany.
My point is there is a fundamental logical disconnect between saying on one hand that the EU is an autocratic, un-elected, all powerful entity which will soon override all national sovereignty, and then holding up examples of issues with the EU where the member states are freely exercising their national sovereignty to completely ignore the EU rules.
It's like the old argument against God - if they are omnipotent, they should be able to enforce their rules on the member states at all times. If they can't (and they clearly can't) then they cannot be omnipotent.
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