Ultimatum EU Blueprint - The Final Solution

[Northern Munkee]

Candellara said:

I'm surprised that the major news sites haven't got this strewed across their front pages yet? BBC?

I think they'll have to shortly but right now they are still trying to win (steal) last Thursday's referendum. This isn't helpful with that endeavour.

[mattmurdock]

TeamD said:

It's the other one that is more worrying.

The other one that proposes that the Eurogroup and its President should be accountable to the European Parliament in the short term (an elected body) and then accountable to a Parliament made up of MEPs and national MPs in the long term?

Or, in other words, the democracy the leavers have always been wanting?

Another example of knee-jerk response rather than actual comprehension.

[mattmurdock]

General point to the leavers on this thread.

Given the both the documents linked here are:

a) strategy documents
b) bleeding obvious i.e. monetary union was always going to lead to more fiscal, legal, defense and political union
c) actually proposing that national sovereignty be maintained in the case of defense, and that the Eurogroup become more accountable to national governments, not less

Did any of you actually read them? Do any of you read anything other than the Mail and the Express?

[wc98]

mattmurdock said:

General point to the leavers on this thread.

Given the both the documents linked here are:

a) strategy documents
b) bleeding obvious i.e. monetary union was always going to lead to more fiscal, legal, defense and political union
c) actually proposing that national sovereignty be maintained in the case of defense, and that the Eurogroup become more accountable to national governments, not less

Did any of you actually read them? Do any of you read anything other than the Mail and the Express?

all very noble of you. the lisbon treaty unfortunately shows you have a short memory.

[wc98]

general point to the remainers on this thread. do you think this will enhance harmony in europe or hasten referendums in other countries ?

[RizzoTheRat]

Can you define "this" I've only managed a skim through one of the linked documents so far but not seen anything there that I'd expect to cause other countries to want to leave. What are the actual negative points here?

[mattmurdock]

wc98 said:

all very noble of you. the lisbon treaty unfortunately shows you have a short memory.

How, exactly?

The elected government of the time made a decision to sign the Lisbon treaty (democracy). An elected government of now has made a decision to hold a referendum to leave the EU (as they could do any time in the future if they liked - also democracy).

The UK has (or should that be had) a number of opt-outs on the main pieces of union described in the document, including the Eurozone and being able to veto being part of any EU defense union. These were (and are) unaffected by the Lisbon treaty.

The only way any of that changes is if the democratically elected government of the UK decides to sign a new treaty (which again, would be democracy).

[TeamD]

mattmurdock said:

b) bleeding obvious i.e. monetary union was always going to lead to more fiscal, legal, defense and political union

Which I don't and never have wanted. As soon as Maastricht...oops...Lisbon cropped up the writing was on the wall. You seem to think that those who voted to Leave have rather short memories.

[mattmurdock]

TeamD said:

Which I don't and never have wanted. As soon as Maastricht...oops...Lisbon cropped up the writing was on the wall. You seem to think that those who voted to Leave have rather short memories.

The UK was opted out of the vast majority of the fiscal, defense and political union anyway, and the only way that would have changed would have been due to a democratically elected UK government changing it.

Yes, the legal union is concerning, but it has pretty much nothing to do with the documents linked here (aside from criminal law concerns to help consistency with cross-border crime like terrorism).

[TeamD]

mattmurdock said:

The UK was opted out of the vast majority of the fiscal, defense and political union anyway, and the only way that would have changed would have been due to a democratically elected UK government changing it.

Rather like Gordon sneaking in to sign the Lisbon Treaty without any real mandate?

[mattmurdock]

TeamD said:

Rather like Gordon sneaking in to sign the Lisbon Treaty without any real mandate?

That is exactly how our democracy currently works, and exactly how it is going to work in the future.

I thought leavers voted to ensure sovereignty was with the democratically elected UK parliament?

P.S. If you really feel that way, surely the referendum was pointless?

[TeamD]

mattmurdock said:

TeamD said:

Rather like Gordon sneaking in to sign the Lisbon Treaty without any real mandate?

That is exactly how our democracy currently works, and exactly how it is going to work in the future.

I thought leavers voted to ensure sovereignty was with the democratically elected UK parliament?

I was cheating there being as many upset Remain voters have used the "only CMD can push the button" argument. Please forgive me

[skahigh]

mattmurdock said:

That is exactly how our democracy currently works, and exactly how it is going to work in the future.

I thought leavers voted to ensure sovereignty was with the democratically elected UK parliament?

P.S. If you really feel that way, surely the referendum was pointless?

Elected governments are generally not elected on a single issue though are they.

Given that by far the two largest parties in the country are primarily pro-EU that doesn't give the voters much of a chance to express their views on a single subject does it?

The referendum does exactly that, it demonstrates the way in which the elected representatives are out of touch with the constituents they are supposed to be representing.

[Northern Munkee]

The Sun, the Wail and Express are all reporting it, and the Visegrad group of countries (Poland, Slovakia, Czech, Hungary) are furious. The Sun reporting as "Foreign ministers from France and Germany presented the radical proposals to do away with individual member states’ armies, criminal law systems and central banks, it has been reported."

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1354489/eu-...

Personally I don't think this would've been rolled out now if we'd voted Remain, and we may have been able to avoid some or all it for a while, but the direction of travel is clear. More integration.

And you know what let's say an EU army is created and gets into to trouble in some adventure. We will still be pulled into it as we are all members of NATO and committed to come to their aid. But the EU Army is required to give EU Foreign Policy credibility.

[wc98]

mattmurdock said:

wc98 said:

all very noble of you. the lisbon treaty unfortunately shows you have a short memory.

How, exactly?

The elected government of the time made a decision to sign the Lisbon treaty (democracy). An elected government of now has made a decision to hold a referendum to leave the EU (as they could do any time in the future if they liked - also democracy).

The UK has (or should that be had) a number of opt-outs on the main pieces of union described in the document, including the Eurozone and being able to veto being part of any EU defense union. These were (and are) unaffected by the Lisbon treaty.

The only way any of that changes is if the democratically elected government of the UK decides to sign a new treaty (which again, would be democracy).

i give up, i am obviously just too thick to understand and should really let the clever people that know what is best for me and mine carry on unabated .

[mattmurdock]

skahigh said:

Elected governments are generally not elected on a single issue though are they.

Given that by far the two largest parties in the country are primarily pro-EU that doesn't give the voters much of a chance to express their views on a single subject does it?

The referendum does exactly that, it demonstrates the way in which the elected representatives are out of touch with the constituents they are supposed to be representing.

We live in a representative democracy though, and the referendum isn't going to change that.

[mattmurdock]

wc98 said:

i give up, i am obviously just too thick to understand and should really let the clever people that know what is best for me and mine carry on unabated .

Please, stop with the woe is me act.

If you don't actually have a counter to the points I've raised, be honest and admit it.

[wc98]

Northern Munkee said:

The Sun, the Wail and Express are all reporting it, and the Visegrad group of countries (Poland, Slovakia, Czech, Hungary) are furious. The Sun reporting as "Foreign ministers from France and Germany presented the radical proposals to do away with individual member states’ armies, criminal law systems and central banks, it has been reported."

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1354489/eu-...

Personally I don't think this would've been rolled out now if we'd voted Remain, and we may have been able to avoid some or all it for a while, but the direction of travel is clear. More integration.

And you know what let's say an EU army is created and gets into to trouble in some adventure. We will still be pulled into it as we are all members of NATO and committed to come to their aid. But the EU Army is required to give EU Foreign Policy credibility.

shows the state of the bbc when it takes a rag like the sun to report what they should be reporting. it has turned into a liberal elitist cabal of champagne socialists in an advocacy echo chamber, when it should be representative of the people that pay for it. probably the only organisation ,private or public, that has not one single leave voting full time employee. it really needs pulled apart properly and reassembled with people with a broader perspective on life and politics .

[mattmurdock]

Northern Munkee said:

And you know what let's say an EU army is created and gets into to trouble in some adventure. We will still be pulled into it as we are all members of NATO and committed to come to their aid. But the EU Army is required to give EU Foreign Policy credibility.

That will happen whether we are in the EU or not, surely?

And being in the EU, we would have had at least some influence to drive the direction, whilst also retaining an opt-out to not participate in the actual army if we didn't want to?

How does leaving improve the situation there?

[Mrr T]

wc98 said:

mattmurdock said:

General point to the leavers on this thread.

Given the both the documents linked here are:

a) strategy documents
b) bleeding obvious i.e. monetary union was always going to lead to more fiscal, legal, defense and political union
c) actually proposing that national sovereignty be maintained in the case of defense, and that the Eurogroup become more accountable to national governments, not less

Did any of you actually read them? Do any of you read anything other than the Mail and the Express?

all very noble of you. the lisbon treaty unfortunately shows you have a short memory.

While I would never defend what happened with the Lisbon treaty. The whole idea the EU can force through full integration shows a complete lack of any understanding of the EU or its member countries. To do this the EU would have to have a way of:
1. Changing the German constitutions - it doen't.
2. Convicting Germans to hand money to Greece etc - it doen't.