Why so much referendum decision remorse?

Why so much referendum decision remorse?

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Discussion

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
Elysium said:
Unfortunately we can't. Brexit isn't going to work. The people campaigning for it have already accepted that and are working out how best to polish the half baked compromise they are presently cobbling together so that leave voters are tricked into believing that the entire debacle was anything other than a monumental waste of time and money.
I'm sure you believe what you claim.

The fact is that, this was always going to be a negotiation of terms and the job now is to get the best terms available. Pretty much anything is better than the current situation with reduced exposure to the dead duck that is the EU / Euro project.

tarnished

13,602 posts

95 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
Elysium said:
Brexit isn't going to work.
Oh well, nevermind. It's still happening, they'll have to make something outside of the EU happen, even if that means free movement remaining.

Elysium

13,762 posts

186 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
sidicks said:
I'm sure you believe what you claim.

The fact is that, this was always going to be a negotiation of terms and the job now is to get the best terms available. Pretty much anything is better than the current situation with reduced exposure to the dead duck that is the EU / Euro project.
Unfortunately, I think there are an awful lot of outcomes that are quite a lot worse than EU membership. Any negotiation is going to be on the following lines:

1. Common Market - there is no world in which we would walk away from this. Boris and the leave campaign have already conceded that our membership is essential.

2. Immigration Control - we already had greater control than Schengen. Boris has said there will be free movement for Brits in Europe and I can't see how we could avoid a reciprocal arrangement. At best we will come up with a compromise that feels like we have won something.

3. European Law - This is the only area that Boris proposes to change. Unfortunately there is little chance of winning anything as the need for a level playing field in the common market is likely to trump any efforts to deregulate. Frankly we would be better of simply ignoring the laws we disagree, which is what the rest of Europe has done for years.

4. Finance - if we want to be in the common market, then we will have to pay. I can see no solution that is cheaper than the one we had.

My guess is that we will end up like Norway - paying to access the common market, bound my it's rules, but with no voting rights. I can't see how that is better than the current arrangement which at least provides for us to be part of the discussion.

Negative perhaps, but realistic. I understand the ideological drive to be free of the EU, but I don't see that we have any way of achieving it without significant financial pain. In that case the cure will be worse than the disease.

Edited by Elysium on Wednesday 29th June 15:49

jshell

11,006 posts

204 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
Elysium said:
sidicks said:
I'm sure you believe what you claim.

The fact is that, this was always going to be a negotiation of terms and the job now is to get the best terms available. Pretty much anything is better than the current situation with reduced exposure to the dead duck that is the EU / Euro project.
Unfortunately, I think there are an awful lot of outcomes that are quite a lot worse than EU membership. Any negotiation is going to be on the following lines:

1. Common Market - there is no world in which we would walk away from this. Boris and the leave campaign have already conceded that our membership is essential.

2. Immigration Control - we already had greater control than Schengen. Boris has said there will be free movement for Brits in Europe and I can't see how we could avoid a reciprocal arrangement. At best we will come up with a compromise that feels like we have won something.

3. European Law - This is the only area that Boris proposes to change. Unfortunately there is little chance of winning anything as the need for a level playing field in the common market is likely to trump any efforts to deregulate. Frankly we would be better of simply ignoring the laws we disagree, which is what the rest of Europe has done for years.

4. Finance - if we want to be in the common market, then we will have to pay. I can see no solution that is cheaper than the one we had.

My guess is that we will end up like Norway - paying to access the common market, bound my it's rules, but with no voting rights. I can't see how that is better than the current arrangement which at least provides for us to be part of the discussion.

Negative perhaps, but realistic. I understand the ideological drive to be free of the EU, but I don't see that we have any way of achieving it without significant financial pain. In that case the cure will be worse than the disease.

Edited by Elysium on Wednesday 29th June 15:49
IN Europe, OUT of the European Union. Sounds OK to me...

tarnished

13,602 posts

95 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
Elysium said:
My guess is that we will end up like Norway - paying to access the common market, bound my it's rules, but with no voting rights. I can't see how that is better than the current arrangement which at least provides for us to be part of the discussion.
It would be cheaper, with approximately the same amount of say and without being subservient to EU politics.

Elysium

13,762 posts

186 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
tarnished said:
It would be cheaper, with approximately the same amount of say and without being subservient to EU politics.
Sounds good. I can't see how though.



AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
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I met someone with remorse the other way today. He voted Remain as he thought it would be better for the economy. Seeing the reaction of various people to the result has convinced him that it was a good thing and that if they do petulantly push for another poll he will vote Leave on principle.

Gogoplata

1,266 posts

159 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
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eharding said:
Gogoplata said:
For what it's worth, nobody that I know who voted to leave regrets it, neither do I.
Did you and your acquaintances use a privately-supplied pen or the voting-station-supplied pencil to vote?
I'm not allowed sharp objects, so I used a crayon wobble

biggles330d

1,527 posts

149 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
Hands up, I'm a remainer and am pretty gutted at the mess we're currently in. But, the vote was clear and the chaos will settle. Whatever the reality is from here on, we voted for it.

It's dead easy for me to come up with doom-ladened things that we know we have now and we can be sure we'll loose and difficulties we might face. But could someone please tell me what we'll gain from being out? It's a serious question. I've heard lots about being able to control our borders, make our own laws, do more favourable trade deals with Europe and the rest of the world. Nobody is being specific on any of it though. For example:

What can we not sell, and to where, today because of EU regulations that we MAY be able to do better in future? I emphasis sell, because I can see may be able to import more cheap things from Africa and the like but importing things and remaining a consumption focused economy doesn't support UK manufacturing and in fact probably harms it as we'll now have to compete with even cheaper imports.

What EU laws prevent us trading with any other nation already? We import enough crap from Asia already I don't see where the constraints are. More cheap American, Chinese and Indian cars maybe? We'll lower the EU crash safety standards shall we to ensure it happens. Thats good for the workers at Nissan / Toyota / GM isn't it.

We are probably held to quite high European standards of food production, employment standards and other social policies. Freeing ourselves from Europe does what? Being happy to lower our quality standards to that elsewhere, with poorer employment rights and lower pay? That doesn't seem to be what people are asking for, quite the opposite.

We aren't in the Euro and our currency isn't pegged to it, so what change there. Maybe there are complex tax rules we apply that have their origins in EU directives, but with all the noise about international business working around tax differences, I thought people were in favour of harmonising this to remove the ability for big business to avoid tax. An argument I heard today is that we could apply our own rules to ensure companies pay tax here. Good luck with that.
We already have control over the majority of taxes (VAT, income, property, inheritance, business, rates, NI etc etc) in the UK, these aren't mandated by the EU, so what change?

Benefits, ok, we are obliged to recognise people from the EU, as the EU is obliged to recognise our Expats, wherever they are. We'll exchange working Polish for resentful retired returning Britain's I guess. Doesn't sound like the best deal to me.

Minimum wage. UK law. We can set at whatever level we like already, no EU role here.
Human rights. UK law, backed by Europe. Are we planning to undermine this then? The people want better, not worse, surely.

'Control'. We want to regain 'Control'. Control of what exactly? What is Europe telling us to do that our Government is being forced to apply?

School places, doctors appointments and housing. I wasn't aware the EU built schools, hospitals or housing, or trained teachers, nurses and doctors? Is it just we'll have more money to spend on them - the mythical £350m? Perhaps under Labour, but more likely it'll be given away in tax cuts or paying down the deficit.

We could reduce the amount we spend on foreign aid? Hang on, this isn't specified by the EU, its UK Government policy. Nope, not an EU issue either.

I had this conversation with my mother, who banged on ad-nausiem about 'Europe this', 'Europe that' and is a definite outer. This'll teach them for not listening to us she said.
Simple questions... give me 5 specific examples similar to above, and have you been to see your local elected MP at his regular surgery to tell him your frustrations / concerns / issues and found him uncaring / unwilling or uninterested? This is, after all, the way our parliamentary representation works and you have every right to do so.

Answers, there were none. No. Of course not. All I got was 'What do they know'. 'What's the point'. 'Oh, you know, they tell us everything we have to do'.
bks. Scratch the surface and it was nothing more than parroted headlines from the Daily Mail.

This is what worries me about referendums. You are asking people with the least amount of detailed understanding to make the most important decisions and in this instance they've chosen to ignore the advice of every single political party, and every recognised and respected economic and business body in the land.
Unintended consequences there will be many. I'm waiting for it.... 'Thats not what we meant, well, it's not our fault, they never told us this would happen'.

So please, a few clear and specific examples of what we will be able to do out of the EU that we cannot today?

grumbledoak

31,504 posts

232 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
biggles330d said:
So please, a few clear and specific examples of what we will be able to do out of the EU that we cannot today?
We avoid ever closer political union and their doomed currency. Both of which were coming, by hook or by crook, whether we want them or not.

grumbledoak

31,504 posts

232 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
We avoid any future £Bn shakedown payments when the EU bureaucrats decide we've done better outside the Euro than anyone did in it.

jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
grumbled if you expect free access to market and even Boris knows that he'll have to have that, you'll be very disappointed.

grumbledoak

31,504 posts

232 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
Don't care. WTO rules would be fine at a push.


ETA - Face it, most deals are better than being subject to an arbitrary power that doesn't like you much. And that is the situation really.

Edited by grumbledoak on Wednesday 29th June 19:09

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
I don't want to be in a EU that wants to bring in ever-more countries without us having any rights whatsoever over which/how many can then freely migrate to the UK.
I don't want our UK laws overruled by any jurisdiction outside the UK.
I like the idea of Britain having sufficient housing, schools and NHS facilities to cope better with even just the current population.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
Robertj21a said:
I don't want to be in a EU that wants to bring in ever-more countries without us having any rights whatsoever over which/how many can then freely migrate to the UK.
I don't want our UK laws overruled by any jurisdiction outside the UK.
I like the idea of Britain having sufficient housing, schools and NHS facilities to cope better with even just the current population.
1. you weren't
2. they aren't
3. nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the NIMBYs and their question to be paper millionares wrt Housing and the cost of everythign vale of nothing bunch with regardto some aspects of pulbic services amplified by the pointlessly combative attitude of the TUC/ Labour and /or other socialist party affiliated trades unions ...

johnxjsc1985

15,948 posts

163 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
grumbledoak said:
We avoid ever closer political union and their doomed currency. Both of which were coming, by hook or by crook, whether we want them or not.
ten years down the line who knows what would happened but a remain vote would have left us completely at the will of the EU.I fear it would have been a "put up and shut up" relationship. Do people really think that the population of Greece are going to forget these last few years ? .

jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
grumbledoak said:
Don't care. WTO rules would be fine at a push.


ETA - Face it, most deals are better than being subject to an arbitrary power that doesn't like you much. And that is the situation really.

Edited by grumbledoak on Wednesday 29th June 19:09
Think about why WTO rules not only would not be fine, but that nobody is even mentioning them. Not EU nor Boris. Ask yourself why.

I wouldn't agreed that most deals are better, not at all. This at the same time omnipotent and crumbling 'power' understands quite well what they are doing. My preferred route now is to get good team of negotiators decide what they are aiming for ask for more and sort this sorry mess out.
The part that I'm afraid off is that it will end up with the access to the common market, together with renamed version of free labour, working-name 'free-qualified-worker-movement' and same fee for accessing the market. And for all that well have higher taxes and lower spending at least for a while. My prognosis obviously.

vonuber

17,868 posts

164 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
Robertj21a said:
I don't want to be in a EU that wants to bring in ever-more countries without us having any rights whatsoever over which/how many can then freely migrate to the UK.
I don't want our UK laws overruled by any jurisdiction outside the UK.
I like the idea of Britain having sufficient housing, schools and NHS facilities to cope better with even just the current population.
1) We have (had?) a veto
2) They aren't
3) Then we need to raise taxes to pay for it. Nothing to do with the EU

jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
johnxjsc1985 said:
ten years down the line who knows what would happened but a remain vote would have left us completely at the will of the EU.I fear it would have been a "put up and shut up" relationship. Do people really think that the population of Greece are going to forget these last few years ? .
It's weird that people are comparing UK to Greece. Surely much better comparison by any means would be to Germany, or Denmark?

cymtriks

4,560 posts

244 months

Wednesday 29th June 2016
quotequote all
It's the idiots running the show, not the show itself, that is causing the remorse.

Earlier (I can't remember which thread) I saw a post about a government department that has no plan at all. Apparently they were told not to have a backup plan for an "out" vote because it would send the wrong message.

Is the EU doing anything to solve its crisis? No. It could offer a freeze on article 50, come up with a sensible plan to solve its many problems and then present us, probably in 5 years time, with a proper vision of EU mark 2. They could invite Norway and Greenland back in while they are at it. Sensible? Yes. Will it happen? No.

Look at the government. The house of cards is falling down. The clue is in their name, the are, wait for it, the government but right now we are leaderless on one side of house, almost leaderless on the other, no idea where we are going and, by deliberate instruction, without any plan at all.