Why so much referendum decision remorse?
Discussion
jjlynn27 said:
It's weird that people are comparing UK to Greece. Surely much better comparison by any means would be to Germany, or Denmark?
where is the comparison with Greece? the point I made was when the people of Greece find their voice once more they will remember who it was who enforced so much hardship upon themjohnxjsc1985 said:
where is the comparison with Greece? the point I made was when the people of Greece find their voice once more they will remember who it was who enforced so much hardship upon them
Themselves for lying about their economy and not paying taxes, whilst borrowing more than they could afford?johnxjsc1985 said:
jjlynn27 said:
It's weird that people are comparing UK to Greece. Surely much better comparison by any means would be to Germany, or Denmark?
where is the comparison with Greece? the point I made was when the people of Greece find their voice once more they will remember who it was who enforced so much hardship upon themmarshalla said:
cymtriks said:
It could offer a freeze on article 50
There's nothing to freeze. The process hasn't started. We haven't even said that we're going to start the process. All that's clear is that someone might do something if they can sort out a new PM in a couple of months.jjlynn27 said:
Who exactly do you think enforced so much hardship on them? EU or their own democratically elected government? They were simply spending money that they didn't have.
I think we all spend money we don't have. they should never have gone into the Euro it was wrong and now they are paying the price and the price is enforced austerity not from their own Government but from Germany mainly.I doubt the ordinary people of Greece thought that they were spending money they didn't have and they are the ones who have suffered.from the Guardian
"Greece may yet escape the humiliation of defaulting on its debts and being forced out of the single currency. Yet the terrible suffering of its people over the past five years shows that the single currency is a fundamentally misconceived project. It is extraordinary that an economic catastrophe on the scale of the Great Depression has been visited on a country in 21st-century Europe, not because of the neglect of the policymaking elite but under their direct supervision – and indeed under the guise of a “bailout”.
So doctrinaire have Berlin and Brussels been in imposing neoliberal strictures on Greece – not just deep budget cuts in the midst of recession but the dismantling of collective bargaining and the privatisation of state assets – that the end result has been economic misery and social division; even the International Monetary Fund has sometimes seemed to balk at their hardline approach.
cymtriks said:
It's the idiots running the show, not the show itself, that is causing the remorse.
Earlier (I can't remember which thread) I saw a post about a government department that has no plan at all. Apparently they were told not to have a backup plan for an "out" vote because it would send the wrong message.
Is the EU doing anything to solve its crisis? No. It could offer a freeze on article 50, come up with a sensible plan to solve its many problems and then present us, probably in 5 years time, with a proper vision of EU mark 2. They could invite Norway and Greenland back in while they are at it. Sensible? Yes. Will it happen? No.
I think you are a bit confused here. 'Present us'? They are, very clear that they want to start the clock and get it over asap. From what I'm reading there is a feeling that they already bent over backwards to make exceptions for UK and they got Brexit in return. To me, from their perspective at some point you say, ok, enough, off you go. Earlier (I can't remember which thread) I saw a post about a government department that has no plan at all. Apparently they were told not to have a backup plan for an "out" vote because it would send the wrong message.
Is the EU doing anything to solve its crisis? No. It could offer a freeze on article 50, come up with a sensible plan to solve its many problems and then present us, probably in 5 years time, with a proper vision of EU mark 2. They could invite Norway and Greenland back in while they are at it. Sensible? Yes. Will it happen? No.
And it seems that they have no intention of presenting us with anything really.
cymtriks said:
Look at the government. The house of cards is falling down. The clue is in their name, the are, wait for it, the government but right now we are leaderless on one side of house, almost leaderless on the other, no idea where we are going and, by deliberate instruction, without any plan at all.
And this is the problem. But think about it. People are voting to get more decision by that same government that you portray as totally incompetent? I don't understand that logic. johnxjsc1985 said:
jjlynn27 said:
Who exactly do you think enforced so much hardship on them? EU or their own democratically elected government? They were simply spending money that they didn't have.
I think we all spend money we don't have. they should never have gone into the Euro it was wrong and now they are paying the price and the price is enforced austerity not from their own Government but from Germany mainly.I doubt the ordinary people of Greece thought that they were spending money they didn't have and they are the ones who have suffered.from the Guardian
"Greece may yet escape the humiliation of defaulting on its debts and being forced out of the single currency. Yet the terrible suffering of its people over the past five years shows that the single currency is a fundamentally misconceived project. It is extraordinary that an economic catastrophe on the scale of the Great Depression has been visited on a country in 21st-century Europe, not because of the neglect of the policymaking elite but under their direct supervision – and indeed under the guise of a “bailout”.
So doctrinaire have Berlin and Brussels been in imposing neoliberal strictures on Greece – not just deep budget cuts in the midst of recession but the dismantling of collective bargaining and the privatisation of state assets – that the end result has been economic misery and social division; even the International Monetary Fund has sometimes seemed to balk at their hardline approach.
No sorry. Don't agree at all. It was mistake to invite them into EZ but saying that the precarious position that they find themselves in is mostly of their won making.
No time for remorse, I'm really hoping that boys/girls in whitehall are cracking on and preparing for what's going to be unwinding 40 years over 2 years once the gong goes off.
marshalla said:
cymtriks said:
It could offer a freeze on article 50
There's nothing to freeze. The process hasn't started. We haven't even said that we're going to start the process. All that's clear is that someone might do something if they can sort out a new PM in a couple of months.If the British government and the EU choose to ignore that then it is quite clear that we are no longer living under a democratic government.
In all honesty I see points for both sides. I'm not a fan of the Brussels red tape and bulls
t, the EZ seems to be a daft thing to do and now its in strife daft to continue with to some illogical conclusion somewhere in the future..
On the other hand I think we've done medium/long term damage with regards to trade. Yes, new trade deals can be arranged or we get the Norwegian thing or we can rely on WTO (once we sign up in our own right, as I understand it we are signed up via the EU currently). But non of this as far as trading in Europe will be as good as being a member, the member countries will always deal internally first I think.
Ultimately I think very few will really going to get what they wanted out of this whole thing and that will lead to more regret and remorse in the future.
The far left remainers won't get their "big society" thing, because we'll be out of Europe. And they aren't ever going to shut up about it.
The far right won't get restricted immigration, because we'll allow freedom of movement in return for trade deals.
In industry there will still be a lot of work to ensure that we comply with various EU directives/laws/standards etc to enable us to trade in Europe.
Those somewhere in the middle who wanted us to "look after our own" with all the money saved from the EU payments won't get that, because the money will go in to trade deals and more civil servants to perform the bureaucracy that Brussels was doing. There will be a whole new gravy train there.
Those that wanted us to re-capture our sovereignty ? Well, maybe they'll be satisfied with being pushed around by our own bureaucrats instead of those in Brussels, not too sure exactly how that makes much difference though.
I think its a rather typical English cock-up. How exactly we could get to the point of a referendum with no plan of what to do next I don't understand.. but thats where we appear to be. I just hope that it doesn't damage us too badly.
t, the EZ seems to be a daft thing to do and now its in strife daft to continue with to some illogical conclusion somewhere in the future..On the other hand I think we've done medium/long term damage with regards to trade. Yes, new trade deals can be arranged or we get the Norwegian thing or we can rely on WTO (once we sign up in our own right, as I understand it we are signed up via the EU currently). But non of this as far as trading in Europe will be as good as being a member, the member countries will always deal internally first I think.
Ultimately I think very few will really going to get what they wanted out of this whole thing and that will lead to more regret and remorse in the future.
The far left remainers won't get their "big society" thing, because we'll be out of Europe. And they aren't ever going to shut up about it.
The far right won't get restricted immigration, because we'll allow freedom of movement in return for trade deals.
In industry there will still be a lot of work to ensure that we comply with various EU directives/laws/standards etc to enable us to trade in Europe.
Those somewhere in the middle who wanted us to "look after our own" with all the money saved from the EU payments won't get that, because the money will go in to trade deals and more civil servants to perform the bureaucracy that Brussels was doing. There will be a whole new gravy train there.
Those that wanted us to re-capture our sovereignty ? Well, maybe they'll be satisfied with being pushed around by our own bureaucrats instead of those in Brussels, not too sure exactly how that makes much difference though.
I think its a rather typical English cock-up. How exactly we could get to the point of a referendum with no plan of what to do next I don't understand.. but thats where we appear to be. I just hope that it doesn't damage us too badly.
jjlynn27 said:
johnxjsc1985 said:
jjlynn27 said:
Who exactly do you think enforced so much hardship on them? EU or their own democratically elected government? They were simply spending money that they didn't have.
I think we all spend money we don't have. they should never have gone into the Euro it was wrong and now they are paying the price and the price is enforced austerity not from their own Government but from Germany mainly.I doubt the ordinary people of Greece thought that they were spending money they didn't have and they are the ones who have suffered.from the Guardian
"Greece may yet escape the humiliation of defaulting on its debts and being forced out of the single currency. Yet the terrible suffering of its people over the past five years shows that the single currency is a fundamentally misconceived project. It is extraordinary that an economic catastrophe on the scale of the Great Depression has been visited on a country in 21st-century Europe, not because of the neglect of the policymaking elite but under their direct supervision – and indeed under the guise of a “bailout”.
So doctrinaire have Berlin and Brussels been in imposing neoliberal strictures on Greece – not just deep budget cuts in the midst of recession but the dismantling of collective bargaining and the privatisation of state assets – that the end result has been economic misery and social division; even the International Monetary Fund has sometimes seemed to balk at their hardline approach.
No sorry. Don't agree at all. It was mistake to invite them into EZ but saying that the precarious position that they find themselves in is mostly of their won making.
No time for remorse, I'm really hoping that boys/girls in whitehall are cracking on and preparing for what's going to be unwinding 40 years over 2 years once the gong goes off.
They got in (the EU )in 1981. Greece didn't alter much, it was still a great place and tourist destination. That is until 2001 when the adopted the dreaded f. Euro! As I walked the streets one thing was very evident during the period you mention above - every f
king thing under the sun from a coffee to clothing and shopping had escalated in price.We go on about the dreadful state of Greece. Imagine we had listened to the dicks who were falling over themselves for us to adopt the Euro, where we would be now? Totally f
ked! LOVE EUROPE
f
k the EU.Good Riddance!
dandarez said:
every fking thing under the sun from a coffee to clothing and shopping had escalated in price.
When the Euro came in initially didn't many in France, Italy etc find the same thing ? effectively the new currency devalued their wealth and there wasn't much they could do about it ?king thing under the sun from a coffee to clothing and shopping had escalated in price.Crafty_ said:
When the Euro came in initially didn't many in France, Italy etc find the same thing ? effectively the new currency devalued their wealth and there wasn't much they could do about it ?
Yes, that is when Brits started going to Egypt or Turkey because they weren't in the Euro so were affordable (like Greece and Spain were before that)!Getting out of the ERM was supposed to trigger financial melt-down, but actually I think it did us a favour - especially now we have voted out!
Brexit was reputedly going to trigger financial melt-down, but in less than a week the FTSE is back to where it was before the vote - maybe the Remain campaign knew they were on a loser but made a few quid on shares to lessen their pain!?
I voted out and am still relieved with the result - what remorse are we talking about?
Only Remainers seem to have any remorse, but that is now their problem - I don't want to hear any more of their bleating or doom-laden prophecies (still as speculative as they always were). You didn't win - get over it!!!!
Crafty_ said:
dandarez said:
every fking thing under the sun from a coffee to clothing and shopping had escalated in price.
When the Euro came in initially didn't many in France, Italy etc find the same thing ? effectively the new currency devalued their wealth and there wasn't much they could do about it ?king thing under the sun from a coffee to clothing and shopping had escalated in price.Yes, everything got more expensive in Spain after the Euro came in, but the perception of wealth rocketed as well. People went from crappy old Seats to shiny new Audis and BMWs, so didn't mind if the price of a coffee went from 25p to £1.50, because that was progress.
France, on the other hand, was already much more developed, so the effects on both sides of the coin were more muted. People were hacked off about 10% price rises here or there as inevitably retailers rounded up from Francs to Euros, and they weren't getting the shiny new toys the Spaniards got to compensate.
Personally, I still think we were absolutely mad to vote leave, but had I been French, I would've been manning the barricades, lobbing Molotov cocktails at Hollande until he agreed to a Leave referendum, as most French citizens bar a few farmers have been largely f
ked by membership of the Eurozone.Spain, on the other hand, is a rather different matter, and I'm not surprised that they remain largely supportive of the EU, despite seemingly having been much more heavily f
ked over by it. It's the only country that I know well which has had a Civil War in (just about) living memory, and it does very much still colour the national psyche. There are places in Madrid where you can still see the bullet holes, and there are still plenty of wounds in society as well, where one family doesn't talk to another (and sometimes, family members don't even talk to each other) because of which side their Grandfather was on back then. Yes, the fighting ended before WW2 even started, but the divisions remained raw right the way through the Franco dictatorship. If I was Spanish, I think I'd be voting to remain in the EU, Eurozone and all, because despite the current financial issues and youth unemployment, the average Spaniard's life is overwhelmingly better than it ever was before they joined.
dandarez said:
jjlynn27 said:
johnxjsc1985 said:
jjlynn27 said:
Who exactly do you think enforced so much hardship on them? EU or their own democratically elected government? They were simply spending money that they didn't have.
I think we all spend money we don't have. they should never have gone into the Euro it was wrong and now they are paying the price and the price is enforced austerity not from their own Government but from Germany mainly.I doubt the ordinary people of Greece thought that they were spending money they didn't have and they are the ones who have suffered.from the Guardian
"Greece may yet escape the humiliation of defaulting on its debts and being forced out of the single currency. Yet the terrible suffering of its people over the past five years shows that the single currency is a fundamentally misconceived project. It is extraordinary that an economic catastrophe on the scale of the Great Depression has been visited on a country in 21st-century Europe, not because of the neglect of the policymaking elite but under their direct supervision – and indeed under the guise of a “bailout”.
So doctrinaire have Berlin and Brussels been in imposing neoliberal strictures on Greece – not just deep budget cuts in the midst of recession but the dismantling of collective bargaining and the privatisation of state assets – that the end result has been economic misery and social division; even the International Monetary Fund has sometimes seemed to balk at their hardline approach.
No sorry. Don't agree at all. It was mistake to invite them into EZ but saying that the precarious position that they find themselves in is mostly of their won making.
No time for remorse, I'm really hoping that boys/girls in whitehall are cracking on and preparing for what's going to be unwinding 40 years over 2 years once the gong goes off.
They got in (the EU )in 1981. Greece didn't alter much, it was still a great place and tourist destination. That is until 2001 when the adopted the dreaded f. Euro! As I walked the streets one thing was very evident during the period you mention above - every f
king thing under the sun from a coffee to clothing and shopping had escalated in price.We go on about the dreadful state of Greece. Imagine we had listened to the dicks who were falling over themselves for us to adopt the Euro, where we would be now? Totally f
ked! LOVE EUROPE
f
k the EU.Good Riddance!
johnxjsc1985 said:
grumbledoak said:
We avoid ever closer political union and their doomed currency. Both of which were coming, by hook or by crook, whether we want them or not.
ten years down the line who knows what would happened but a remain vote would have left us completely at the will of the EU.I fear it would have been a "put up and shut up" relationship. Do people really think that the population of Greece are going to forget these last few years ? .Greece had two choices. Take the bail out and reform, or get out. Option one, forced austerity. Option two, very little income and probably worse than now. They knew they had to keep in the EU to stand any chance, and take the bitter pill. Its painful but why should Europe (including us), just keep pouring money into Greece without demanding reform? The problem was the EU wasn't demanding or questioning enough of them in the first place and let their corruption go on so long.
The UK fortunately is in a much better position than this as we do have a strong economy, a strong work ethic and good public administration to collect taxes.
I must admit for the first couple of days after I was thinking 'whoo have I done the right thing it's scary and no-one knows what to do'.
But after a week I've gone back the other way, and I'd vote leave again if asked again.
Unless the EU was drastically reformed, I've always seen it as a gravy train for failed politicians. I don't mind immigration, I don't mind EN standards, there are lots of good things it does, but it doesn't need tens of thousands of beurocrats to do it.
One word sums up the EU for me, Kinnock, coin it in at the taxpayers expense and not a damn thing anyone can do about it.
So, yeah, petty jealousy, that's why I want out.
But after a week I've gone back the other way, and I'd vote leave again if asked again.
Unless the EU was drastically reformed, I've always seen it as a gravy train for failed politicians. I don't mind immigration, I don't mind EN standards, there are lots of good things it does, but it doesn't need tens of thousands of beurocrats to do it.
One word sums up the EU for me, Kinnock, coin it in at the taxpayers expense and not a damn thing anyone can do about it.
So, yeah, petty jealousy, that's why I want out.
SickAsAParrot said:
But after a week I've gone back the other way, and I'd vote leave again if asked again.
Is that maybe because, sitting here right now, nothing (beyond some political machinations) has actually changed? Had A50 been initiated right away and the roller-coaster released from the station, might you perhaps feel differently? don4l said:
nadger said:
don4l said:
Matt UK said:
Maybe it's just the news coverage, but I'm staggered there so many people saying they voted leave "but are now not sure if they made the right decision" or are "surprised it actually happened and now feel nervous".
Seriously, did the people of this country not understand what they were voting for?
This is an orchestrated campaign to destabilise the referendum result.Seriously, did the people of this country not understand what they were voting for?
Votes can be traced. I bet that if we do a little investigation, we will discover that they are lying through their teeth.
The whole Remain campaign has been built on lies.
If you disagree that the Remain campaign was built on lies, then all you need to do is give us an example of a truth that they told.
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