Battle of the Somme
Discussion
An horrific waste of life on all sides. I've never visited the Somme but did visit Verdun and the breadth and magnitude of shelling - all sorts of sizes of ordinance craters - is literally terrifying.
A year or so back I did some research for my dad to trace the location where his dad was wounded. It was as the allies breached thenHindenburgbline an advance for three days straight, upon which time their reconnaissance failed them somewhat and his section were isolated and pinned down by enemy machine gun fire on either flank. The accounts of the battle fit exactly with my grandfather's own. He was hit twice by machine gun fire and very lucky to survive and even luckier to recover.
Post centenary, it's worth acknowledging the loss to all sides.
A year or so back I did some research for my dad to trace the location where his dad was wounded. It was as the allies breached thenHindenburgbline an advance for three days straight, upon which time their reconnaissance failed them somewhat and his section were isolated and pinned down by enemy machine gun fire on either flank. The accounts of the battle fit exactly with my grandfather's own. He was hit twice by machine gun fire and very lucky to survive and even luckier to recover.
Post centenary, it's worth acknowledging the loss to all sides.
30 years ago on July 1st, I was sitting on the platform at Virgina Water train station with a bit of a hangover. I was 20 years old and typically young, dumb and full of my own self-importance. It was a lovely sunny (late) morning and, as I sat there, this old chap shuffled along the platform and sat down next to me on the bench. I didn’t pay him much heed; after all he was just some old guy, right?
After about 5 mins he said to me “It’s July 1st today isn’t it?” I can’t remember my reply but I do remember his next words…”It’s the 70th anniversary of the start of the Somme…I was there you know?” I’d heard of the Somme but didn’t know much about it.
The following conversation lasted about 15-20 minutes, until his train arrived but has stuck with me ever since. It was the best history lesson I ever had. He was just a regular Tommy but talked about how he had signed up, the carnage of the first day and life in the trenches with his mates - nothing about the actual fighting. I’ve no idea of the odds of surviving all the way through the Somme and the subsequent battles but the chap must have been in he late 80s when I met him so there cannot have been many survivors left.
I never asked his name but I still feel very privileged to have met that gentleman.
After about 5 mins he said to me “It’s July 1st today isn’t it?” I can’t remember my reply but I do remember his next words…”It’s the 70th anniversary of the start of the Somme…I was there you know?” I’d heard of the Somme but didn’t know much about it.
The following conversation lasted about 15-20 minutes, until his train arrived but has stuck with me ever since. It was the best history lesson I ever had. He was just a regular Tommy but talked about how he had signed up, the carnage of the first day and life in the trenches with his mates - nothing about the actual fighting. I’ve no idea of the odds of surviving all the way through the Somme and the subsequent battles but the chap must have been in he late 80s when I met him so there cannot have been many survivors left.
I never asked his name but I still feel very privileged to have met that gentleman.
As it seemed to have been with many, my great grandfather was also a serving man in WWI. Still have his medals and they're something that will be passed down through the family. I would also recommend anyone go and visit The Somme and the surrounding area. I visited in Late September, along with Vimy Ridge and some other areas. I can't comprehend what really went on that day, but it really puts a lot into perspective and how so many young men were prepared to die for their country, and 19,000 did. Inspiring stuff, and hopefully something that should never happen again.
Just watched Tony Robinsion's the first 24 hours which focuses on some lads from Sheffield.
It doesn't matter how many accounts I have read or seen on TV I always seem to be left open mouthed at the sheer guts and dignity of their generation. We never here much of the Generals do we but they f
ked up big time and it cost the ordinary soldier his life.
It doesn't matter how many accounts I have read or seen on TV I always seem to be left open mouthed at the sheer guts and dignity of their generation. We never here much of the Generals do we but they f
ked up big time and it cost the ordinary soldier his life.albatross said:
30 years ago on July 1st, I was sitting on the platform at Virgina Water train station with a bit of a hangover. I was 20 years old and typically young, dumb and full of my own self-importance. It was a lovely sunny (late) morning and, as I sat there, this old chap shuffled along the platform and sat down next to me on the bench. I didn’t pay him much heed; after all he was just some old guy, right?
After about 5 mins he said to me “It’s July 1st today isn’t it?” I can’t remember my reply but I do remember his next words…”It’s the 70th anniversary of the start of the Somme…I was there you know?” I’d heard of the Somme but didn’t know much about it.
The following conversation lasted about 15-20 minutes, until his train arrived but has stuck with me ever since. It was the best history lesson I ever had. He was just a regular Tommy but talked about how he had signed up, the carnage of the first day and life in the trenches with his mates - nothing about the actual fighting. I’ve no idea of the odds of surviving all the way through the Somme and the subsequent battles but the chap must have been in he late 80s when I met him so there cannot have been many survivors left.
I never asked his name but I still feel very privileged to have met that gentleman.
A close friend of an uncle of mine was at the Somme. It was his last battle in the trenches, being promoted out of the dirt. He said nothing about it until he found I was reading Harris' book A Covenant With Death. He told me he had been interviewed for the book, although not by Harris, and that his story was included verbatim. But he didn't tell me what bit. He died leaving a widow who was seriously ill. My uncle moved in as a carer and she died and a little while later my uncle was taken to hospital terminally ill. After about 5 mins he said to me “It’s July 1st today isn’t it?” I can’t remember my reply but I do remember his next words…”It’s the 70th anniversary of the start of the Somme…I was there you know?” I’d heard of the Somme but didn’t know much about it.
The following conversation lasted about 15-20 minutes, until his train arrived but has stuck with me ever since. It was the best history lesson I ever had. He was just a regular Tommy but talked about how he had signed up, the carnage of the first day and life in the trenches with his mates - nothing about the actual fighting. I’ve no idea of the odds of surviving all the way through the Somme and the subsequent battles but the chap must have been in he late 80s when I met him so there cannot have been many survivors left.
I never asked his name but I still feel very privileged to have met that gentleman.
He died and I, as executor, cleaned out the house. In one room there was a cupboard with the chap's uniforms, all but destroyed through damp, and in a cupboard there were his medals and commendations. Also some German hand guns, a couple of 'live' German hand grenades, and a few British ones. There were a few knives and about half a dozen bayonets as well.
He was, in anyone's definition, a hero. Yet he kept all of it a secret, except one story to an author's assistant. All the memorabilia was sent to the chap's niece, the only relative I knew of. The Met bomb squad turned out for the explosives. They closed the nearby railway line, the main one out of Lewisham, for some hours and i was sort of pleased by that.
He used to go to a remembrance service every year, but not with medals. There were so many questions I wanted to ask but he didn't even tell his closest friends. He was an irregular at a pub and when I told his friends there they were shocked.
Lovely, kind and gentle is the way I'd describe him. And a hero.
Derek Smith said:
A close friend of an uncle of mine was at the Somme. It was his last battle in the trenches, being promoted out of the dirt. He said nothing about it until he found I was reading Harris' book A Covenant With Death. He told me he had been interviewed for the book, although not by Harris, and that his story was included verbatim. But he didn't tell me what bit. He died leaving a widow who was seriously ill. My uncle moved in as a carer and she died and a little while later my uncle was taken to hospital terminally ill.
He died and I, as executor, cleaned out the house. In one room there was a cupboard with the chap's uniforms, all but destroyed through damp, and in a cupboard there were his medals and commendations. Also some German hand guns, a couple of 'live' German hand grenades, and a few British ones. There were a few knives and about half a dozen bayonets as well.
He was, in anyone's definition, a hero. Yet he kept all of it a secret, except one story to an author's assistant. All the memorabilia was sent to the chap's niece, the only relative I knew of. The Met bomb squad turned out for the explosives. They closed the nearby railway line, the main one out of Lewisham, for some hours and i was sort of pleased by that.
He used to go to a remembrance service every year, but not with medals. There were so many questions I wanted to ask but he didn't even tell his closest friends. He was an irregular at a pub and when I told his friends there they were shocked.
Lovely, kind and gentle is the way I'd describe him. And a hero.
Have you met Tonii Holt?He died and I, as executor, cleaned out the house. In one room there was a cupboard with the chap's uniforms, all but destroyed through damp, and in a cupboard there were his medals and commendations. Also some German hand guns, a couple of 'live' German hand grenades, and a few British ones. There were a few knives and about half a dozen bayonets as well.
He was, in anyone's definition, a hero. Yet he kept all of it a secret, except one story to an author's assistant. All the memorabilia was sent to the chap's niece, the only relative I knew of. The Met bomb squad turned out for the explosives. They closed the nearby railway line, the main one out of Lewisham, for some hours and i was sort of pleased by that.
He used to go to a remembrance service every year, but not with medals. There were so many questions I wanted to ask but he didn't even tell his closest friends. He was an irregular at a pub and when I told his friends there they were shocked.
Lovely, kind and gentle is the way I'd describe him. And a hero.
Derek Smith said:
don4l said:
Have you met Tonii Holt?
I don't remember the name and it returns nothing on Google so I can't say whether it slipped my mind. Who is she/she?Having read your post again, I don't know what triggered the question. Perhaps it was something in one of your earlier posts.
CrutyRammers said:
Chokes me up, this. Poor brave sods.
God bless them all and may we try to live lives worthy of the sacrafices they laid down for us.Edited by Jimbeaux on Wednesday 6th July 18:22
Chicken Chaser said:
Nearly 4 weeks on, the second phase would now be well underway. 4 weeks of shelling, death and mud. Little did they know that there was another 20+ weeks of misery ahead.
and if you did survive no counselling just demobbed and get on with it, I don't think anyone can really appreciate what these young men went through. All we can really do is say thankyou.There is an excellent series currently showing on BBC that I can highly recommend if you havnt seen it so far. Ep 1 and 2 are on I-Player, 3 is on next week. BBC Program
My Grandfather was one of eight children; four girls and four boys born between 1895 and 1911.
Of the four boys, three, including my Grandfather, fought in the First World War. The two elder brothers were killed in the first days of the Somme.
My Great Grandmother, an invalid in any case, never recovered from the shock and died in 1918. My Grandfather who had, by all accounts, been a lively, vivacious, fun-loving youth returned from the war and lived the rest of his life as a dour and rather severe character, very prone to depression.
He had hoped to be an architect and although his father insisted that he trained and qualified, soon enough he had to return to Norfolk to run the family businesses. He rarely talked of the war to my brothers and I when we were children, except to talk wistfully of all the people he grew up with and went to school with who lost their lives.
In the fifties, when my father was serving in Korea and then Suez, my Grandfather was, by all accounts, filled with a foreboding that, like the Western Front, these wars would become a bloodbath that my father would not survive.
By all accounts, on the evening that he died, he told my Grandmother that he wasn't afraid to die and was "looking forward to seeing Rob and William again"
His sisters also had their childhoods affected by the war. Being of the generation that lost so many potential husbands to war, one never married, two married much older men from reserved occupations (farmer and surgeon) whilst one married a much younger man who, in a cruelly ironic twist, was brain damaged in North Africa when the tank he was commanding was blown up during WW2.
The last of the siblings, Aunt Edith, died in 2002 and with it a remarkable direct link to that time
Of the four boys, three, including my Grandfather, fought in the First World War. The two elder brothers were killed in the first days of the Somme.
My Great Grandmother, an invalid in any case, never recovered from the shock and died in 1918. My Grandfather who had, by all accounts, been a lively, vivacious, fun-loving youth returned from the war and lived the rest of his life as a dour and rather severe character, very prone to depression.
He had hoped to be an architect and although his father insisted that he trained and qualified, soon enough he had to return to Norfolk to run the family businesses. He rarely talked of the war to my brothers and I when we were children, except to talk wistfully of all the people he grew up with and went to school with who lost their lives.
In the fifties, when my father was serving in Korea and then Suez, my Grandfather was, by all accounts, filled with a foreboding that, like the Western Front, these wars would become a bloodbath that my father would not survive.
By all accounts, on the evening that he died, he told my Grandmother that he wasn't afraid to die and was "looking forward to seeing Rob and William again"
His sisters also had their childhoods affected by the war. Being of the generation that lost so many potential husbands to war, one never married, two married much older men from reserved occupations (farmer and surgeon) whilst one married a much younger man who, in a cruelly ironic twist, was brain damaged in North Africa when the tank he was commanding was blown up during WW2.
The last of the siblings, Aunt Edith, died in 2002 and with it a remarkable direct link to that time
jsf said:
There is an excellent series currently showing on BBC that I can highly recommend if you havnt seen it so far. Ep 1 and 2 are on I-Player, 3 is on next week. BBC Program
I have watched this as well. It has been very interesting to hear about the battle from both a British and German perspective. The letter written by the chap dying in a shell hole and how the letter managed to find its way to its intended recipient, but the poor chap was never found and his name is on the Thiepval Memorial was incredibly moving.ClaphamGT3 said:
My Grandfather was one of eight children; four girls and four boys born between 1895 and 1911.
Of the four boys, three, including my Grandfather, fought in the First World War. The two elder brothers were killed in the first days of the Somme.
My Great Grandmother, an invalid in any case, never recovered from the shock and died in 1918. My Grandfather who had, by all accounts, been a lively, vivacious, fun-loving youth returned from the war and lived the rest of his life as a dour and rather severe character, very prone to depression.
He had hoped to be an architect and although his father insisted that he trained and qualified, soon enough he had to return to Norfolk to run the family businesses. He rarely talked of the war to my brothers and I when we were children, except to talk wistfully of all the people he grew up with and went to school with who lost their lives.
In the fifties, when my father was serving in Korea and then Suez, my Grandfather was, by all accounts, filled with a foreboding that, like the Western Front, these wars would become a bloodbath that my father would not survive.
By all accounts, on the evening that he died, he told my Grandmother that he wasn't afraid to die and was "looking forward to seeing Rob and William again"
His sisters also had their childhoods affected by the war. Being of the generation that lost so many potential husbands to war, one never married, two married much older men from reserved occupations (farmer and surgeon) whilst one married a much younger man who, in a cruelly ironic twist, was brain damaged in North Africa when the tank he was commanding was blown up during WW2.
The last of the siblings, Aunt Edith, died in 2002 and with it a remarkable direct link to that time
This leaves me speechless apart from to say. Thank you to all of them, their suffering was not in vain!Of the four boys, three, including my Grandfather, fought in the First World War. The two elder brothers were killed in the first days of the Somme.
My Great Grandmother, an invalid in any case, never recovered from the shock and died in 1918. My Grandfather who had, by all accounts, been a lively, vivacious, fun-loving youth returned from the war and lived the rest of his life as a dour and rather severe character, very prone to depression.
He had hoped to be an architect and although his father insisted that he trained and qualified, soon enough he had to return to Norfolk to run the family businesses. He rarely talked of the war to my brothers and I when we were children, except to talk wistfully of all the people he grew up with and went to school with who lost their lives.
In the fifties, when my father was serving in Korea and then Suez, my Grandfather was, by all accounts, filled with a foreboding that, like the Western Front, these wars would become a bloodbath that my father would not survive.
By all accounts, on the evening that he died, he told my Grandmother that he wasn't afraid to die and was "looking forward to seeing Rob and William again"
His sisters also had their childhoods affected by the war. Being of the generation that lost so many potential husbands to war, one never married, two married much older men from reserved occupations (farmer and surgeon) whilst one married a much younger man who, in a cruelly ironic twist, was brain damaged in North Africa when the tank he was commanding was blown up during WW2.
The last of the siblings, Aunt Edith, died in 2002 and with it a remarkable direct link to that time
ClaphamGT3 said:
My Grandfather was one of eight children; four girls and four boys born between 1895 and 1911.
Of the four boys, three, including my Grandfather, fought in the First World War. The two elder brothers were killed in the first days of the Somme.
My Great Grandmother, an invalid in any case, never recovered from the shock and died in 1918. My Grandfather who had, by all accounts, been a lively, vivacious, fun-loving youth returned from the war and lived the rest of his life as a dour and rather severe character, very prone to depression.
He had hoped to be an architect and although his father insisted that he trained and qualified, soon enough he had to return to Norfolk to run the family businesses. He rarely talked of the war to my brothers and I when we were children, except to talk wistfully of all the people he grew up with and went to school with who lost their lives.
In the fifties, when my father was serving in Korea and then Suez, my Grandfather was, by all accounts, filled with a foreboding that, like the Western Front, these wars would become a bloodbath that my father would not survive.
By all accounts, on the evening that he died, he told my Grandmother that he wasn't afraid to die and was "looking forward to seeing Rob and William again"
His sisters also had their childhoods affected by the war. Being of the generation that lost so many potential husbands to war, one never married, two married much older men from reserved occupations (farmer and surgeon) whilst one married a much younger man who, in a cruelly ironic twist, was brain damaged in North Africa when the tank he was commanding was blown up during WW2.
The last of the siblings, Aunt Edith, died in 2002 and with it a remarkable direct link to that time
Thanks for all that. Just read it on a crowded bus on the way to work. Must have turned off the AC as it suddenly got quite dusty in thereOf the four boys, three, including my Grandfather, fought in the First World War. The two elder brothers were killed in the first days of the Somme.
My Great Grandmother, an invalid in any case, never recovered from the shock and died in 1918. My Grandfather who had, by all accounts, been a lively, vivacious, fun-loving youth returned from the war and lived the rest of his life as a dour and rather severe character, very prone to depression.
He had hoped to be an architect and although his father insisted that he trained and qualified, soon enough he had to return to Norfolk to run the family businesses. He rarely talked of the war to my brothers and I when we were children, except to talk wistfully of all the people he grew up with and went to school with who lost their lives.
In the fifties, when my father was serving in Korea and then Suez, my Grandfather was, by all accounts, filled with a foreboding that, like the Western Front, these wars would become a bloodbath that my father would not survive.
By all accounts, on the evening that he died, he told my Grandmother that he wasn't afraid to die and was "looking forward to seeing Rob and William again"
His sisters also had their childhoods affected by the war. Being of the generation that lost so many potential husbands to war, one never married, two married much older men from reserved occupations (farmer and surgeon) whilst one married a much younger man who, in a cruelly ironic twist, was brain damaged in North Africa when the tank he was commanding was blown up during WW2.
The last of the siblings, Aunt Edith, died in 2002 and with it a remarkable direct link to that time
My Grandfathers were mercifully only young boys during WW1, but several of their brothers fought and survived, although wounded. I know one was in the artillery. Not as safe as it sounds with fearsome counter-battery the way it was.
Actually a year or two before the war started, like many farm workers in East Anglia, they'd often join the fishing fleet over the winter season. One of the brother's boats went missing and the crew were presumed lost at sea. It turned out that they'd actually been shipwrecked on the North German coast. With Anglo-German suspicions as they were at the time, they'd been detained for a few weeks before finally being released and sent home.
Sounds a little like Erskine Childer's novel The Riddle of the Sands, but apparently it was true.
I remember seeing a war memorial in a German village and the sheer number of war dead made a lasting impression. I know it's easy to say "well they started it", but the ones who did the fighting and dying on that list were mostly just farm lads like ours were. So tragic.
Actually a year or two before the war started, like many farm workers in East Anglia, they'd often join the fishing fleet over the winter season. One of the brother's boats went missing and the crew were presumed lost at sea. It turned out that they'd actually been shipwrecked on the North German coast. With Anglo-German suspicions as they were at the time, they'd been detained for a few weeks before finally being released and sent home.
Sounds a little like Erskine Childer's novel The Riddle of the Sands, but apparently it was true.
jsf said:
There is an excellent series currently showing on BBC that I can highly recommend if you havnt seen it so far. Ep 1 and 2 are on I-Player, 3 is on next week. BBC Program
I watched episode 2 last night. Very interesting and informative. The Germans certainly were a tenacious lot.I remember seeing a war memorial in a German village and the sheer number of war dead made a lasting impression. I know it's easy to say "well they started it", but the ones who did the fighting and dying on that list were mostly just farm lads like ours were. So tragic.
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