Battle of the Somme
Discussion
405dogvan said:
They most likely wouldn't have known - at least not anything like immediately and not beyond gossip and guesswork around official propaganda
They did indeed know. Casualty lists were printed every day in the newspapers and anybody who was interested in such things could easily add up what was happening, simply by totalling those daily lists. There was no concerted effort to cover up these casualties. Whilst the news in the headlines was often gung-ho and optimistic, the lists told their own story.And, when so many men from close knit communities were being killed or injured, it was obvious that the casualty rates were high.
don4l said:
I'm booked on a tour in September.
I almost regret booking it. I booked it because I genuinely feel that we need to remember those who fought for our freedom. As a sailor, I have visited most of the Normandy beaches, as well as some of the places where the Americans landed.
After writing about "Journeys End" earlier, I began to regret booking the WWI tour.
We will be doing the following over 5 days. I've got a feeling that we will return utterly drained:-
Last Post Ceremony Menin Gate
Ypres Salient. Visit includes Hill 60 tunnelling and mining, Passchendael and Tyne Cot. Drive to Ypres.
Lens area. Battle of Loos (briefing en route.)
Loos 1915 Battlefield. Dud Corner Cemetary, St Mary’s Advance Dressing Station.
Hill 70.
Somme battlefield including Sheffeld Memorial Park, Hawthorne Ridge and Sunken Road, Beaumont Hamel, Newfoundland Memorial.
Thiepval Memorial, Ulster Tower La Boiselle and Lochnagar mine crater. Pass New Zealand Memorial, Mametz Wood and High Wood (first use of tanks).
Visit Vimy Ridge including preserved trenches, Canadian Memorial and tour of Grange Tunnel with Canadian student.
No Sanctuary Wood? Its arguably THE place to go on the western front. Regarding Hawthorn ridge , back in the early 90's when I was there , the mine crater was fairly heavily wooded, but I managed to get to the bottom, and was greeted by the sight of an unexploded British 9.2 inch howitzer shell. I've oft wondered if its still there. I almost regret booking it. I booked it because I genuinely feel that we need to remember those who fought for our freedom. As a sailor, I have visited most of the Normandy beaches, as well as some of the places where the Americans landed.
After writing about "Journeys End" earlier, I began to regret booking the WWI tour.
We will be doing the following over 5 days. I've got a feeling that we will return utterly drained:-
Last Post Ceremony Menin Gate
Ypres Salient. Visit includes Hill 60 tunnelling and mining, Passchendael and Tyne Cot. Drive to Ypres.
Lens area. Battle of Loos (briefing en route.)
Loos 1915 Battlefield. Dud Corner Cemetary, St Mary’s Advance Dressing Station.
Hill 70.
Somme battlefield including Sheffeld Memorial Park, Hawthorne Ridge and Sunken Road, Beaumont Hamel, Newfoundland Memorial.
Thiepval Memorial, Ulster Tower La Boiselle and Lochnagar mine crater. Pass New Zealand Memorial, Mametz Wood and High Wood (first use of tanks).
Visit Vimy Ridge including preserved trenches, Canadian Memorial and tour of Grange Tunnel with Canadian student.
========================================
Rob-hmk61 said:
I was very moved by the young actors in towns and cities across the UK in WW1 uniforms handing out card with names of the dead. To see them simply mixing with shoppers and commuters really did bring tears to my eyes. I'm not a lover of the Mail but they covered it very well here -
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3669617/Si...
Saw a line of these guys quietly walking through Glasgow city centre yesterday. Have to say as a memorial it was one of the most effective things I've ever seen. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3669617/Si...
Eric Mc said:
Each generation uses different cultural references to "understand" World War 1. For those in their late 30s or 40s today, it might well be the "Blackadder Goes Forth" TV series. For my generation, which is a bit older, it might be the stage musical and/or film "Oh! What a Lovely War". For earlier generations it would be plays like "Journey's End" or the War Poets.
The important thing to remember is these are NOT documenatries. They are interpretations using dramatic techniques - some by those who actually experienced what they are writing about but mostly by those who didn't.
I am wary of relying on drama (in whatever form) as a means of finding things out. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed or been moved by such drama (I actually took part in a production of "Oh! What a Lovely War") - but I am aware of the limitations of such devices and the biases that can creep in. "Oh! What a Lovely War" was written (if you can call it that) by Joan Littlewood, who was a Communist at one stage and firmly believed in class warfare and the class struggle.
I prefer to read personal anecdotes of those who were there or books written by respected historians.
Histories written by respected historians are utterly undependable as well. The books I read in my youth were rubbished by the next generation of historians, eager to prove their worth to their university. And then those histories were replaced again and so on. Read a modern history of the battle by all means but for gods' sake don't believe it. The important thing to remember is these are NOT documenatries. They are interpretations using dramatic techniques - some by those who actually experienced what they are writing about but mostly by those who didn't.
I am wary of relying on drama (in whatever form) as a means of finding things out. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed or been moved by such drama (I actually took part in a production of "Oh! What a Lovely War") - but I am aware of the limitations of such devices and the biases that can creep in. "Oh! What a Lovely War" was written (if you can call it that) by Joan Littlewood, who was a Communist at one stage and firmly believed in class warfare and the class struggle.
I prefer to read personal anecdotes of those who were there or books written by respected historians.
The thing about historians is that they have to sell books, so they are revisionary. They have to be. They need to give headlines to the reviewers.
The thing about the poetry and prose from the trenches is that it is exactly what it proposes to be: the thoughts, feelings and experiences of those who fought. These are the truths and it doesn't matter if it conflicts with later histories. These people were there.
Drama and novels can be every bit as truthful as histories written by academics. To turn you back on them because you feel they are biased but not do the same to respectable historians' books is being biased yourself.
We, our generation, will not know what really went on during WWI. We guess. All that you can depend on is the facts: the number of casualties, so many dead on one day. The lions led by donkeys is a catchphrase, and a good one at that. But it would not stand so long if there wasn't some truth in it.
People can explain away the errors of those in command by saying they were ignorant, and that everything was new, but that hardly releases them of blame. Not only that, it wasn't new, only to them.
That said, it really doesn't matter. Working out who was at fault is a nice parlour game, a self-indulgence. There were over 600,000 allied casualties, working out how to apportion blame leaves that figure intact. What is true is that no one learned from it and we were back to war just 20 years later.
But the one fact remains: all histories are wrong. If you trust one particular interpretation then ask yourself why. The normal reason - I can't say anything about yours personally - is that it fits the person's own prejudices. Histories are every bit interpretations and the authors will have to use dramatic effects if they want to sell. It goes with the territories.
I was given the poems of those in the trenches to study as a youth. All of a sudden I realised that prose has limitations, so I probably put too much emphasis on the individual experiences of those trapped in the trenches. But then, why shouldn't I? They were there. They'd probably laugh at the conclusions of respected historians. Or dry I suppose.
There was a professor of English on TV once who reckoned that the one bloke who'd fail every examination on Shakespeare is the Bard himself. To prove it he compared question papers that were 50 or so, I can't remember, years apart.
We none of us know. We just favour one interpretation over another.
I go with the poets. The one thing with them is that they choose their words with a care that is beyond most other types of historians.
I would still rather base my views on those who have either experienced something directly or by someone who has researched their subject seriously. Of course, some of the poets had direct experience - so that gives them some credence. Basing your views on playwrights or screen play writers - especially those born in the decades after the conflict,is less dependable in my opinion.
Of course you will get different interpretations by historians too - but if you read a variety of historians you can form your own views from more dependable sources than people who went to drama school or studied English in university.
I certainly wouldn't be too convinced by those who had not only no historical training but also extreme political views i.e. people like Joan Littlewood. Whilst it was interesting taking part in the show she had concocted, I was very much aware of the angle she was coming from and in many respects I found it rather distasteful and disrespectful.
Of course you will get different interpretations by historians too - but if you read a variety of historians you can form your own views from more dependable sources than people who went to drama school or studied English in university.
I certainly wouldn't be too convinced by those who had not only no historical training but also extreme political views i.e. people like Joan Littlewood. Whilst it was interesting taking part in the show she had concocted, I was very much aware of the angle she was coming from and in many respects I found it rather distasteful and disrespectful.
Eric Mc said:
I would still rather base my views on those who have either experienced something directly or by someone who has researched their subject seriously. Of course, some of the poets had direct experience - so that gives them some credence. Basing your views on playwrights or screen play writers - especially those born in the decades after the conflict,is less dependable in my opinion.
Of course you will get different interpretations by historians too - but if you read a variety of historians you can form your own views from more dependable sources than people who went to drama school or studied English in university.
I certainly wouldn't be too convinced by those who had not only no historical training but also extreme political views i.e. people like Joan Littlewood. Whilst it was interesting taking part in the show she had concocted, I was very much aware of the angle she was coming from and in many respects I found it rather distasteful and disrespectful.
The subject of how dependable histories are is a complex subject, and not for this thread I think. However, most historians have a political bias. And I think the idea that you come to an unbiased view by reading lots of histories is something of a conceit. What gives you the insight?Of course you will get different interpretations by historians too - but if you read a variety of historians you can form your own views from more dependable sources than people who went to drama school or studied English in university.
I certainly wouldn't be too convinced by those who had not only no historical training but also extreme political views i.e. people like Joan Littlewood. Whilst it was interesting taking part in the show she had concocted, I was very much aware of the angle she was coming from and in many respects I found it rather distasteful and disrespectful.
The truth of the matter is that our soldiers suffered under appalling conditions before the battles. Many were not professional soldiers. The plans, such as they were, seemed to give little consideration for their lives.
We lost the battle, or rather battles, along the Somme. Revisionists who say otherwise are wrong.623,000 casualties say otherwise.
The Germans lost as well, some 450,000 or so.
What a mess it all was.
You seem to have a degree of faith in professional historians. I don't. They are always wrong, at least according to other professional historians.
I think this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-3664437... - rather brings home the sheer number lost on the first day.
Derek Smith said:
The subject of how dependable histories are is a complex subject, and not for this thread I think. However, most historians have a political bias. And I think the idea that you come to an unbiased view by reading lots of histories is something of a conceit. What gives you the insight?
The truth of the matter is that our soldiers suffered under appalling conditions before the battles. Many were not professional soldiers. The plans, such as they were, seemed to give little consideration for their lives.
We lost the battle, or rather battles, along the Somme. Revisionists who say otherwise are wrong.623,000 casualties say otherwise.
The Germans lost as well, some 450,000 or so.
What a mess it all was.
You seem to have a degree of faith in professional historians. I don't. They are always wrong, at least according to other professional historians.
My faith comes in that they at least will have studied the topic in detail. Drama students don't tend to be big on fact checking.The truth of the matter is that our soldiers suffered under appalling conditions before the battles. Many were not professional soldiers. The plans, such as they were, seemed to give little consideration for their lives.
We lost the battle, or rather battles, along the Somme. Revisionists who say otherwise are wrong.623,000 casualties say otherwise.
The Germans lost as well, some 450,000 or so.
What a mess it all was.
You seem to have a degree of faith in professional historians. I don't. They are always wrong, at least according to other professional historians.
I do feel I'm smart enough to spot bias. I'm also smart enough to spot poor research.
If you were ill, who would you prefer to consult - a scriptwriter from "Casualty" or a qualified medical consultant?
Found that thread, a fellow PH'er trying to locate his great uncles WW1 history, a fascinating story of history unfolding before our eyes thanks to power of google etc
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=145...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=145...
So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
and builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
and builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
The hard and depressing fact about casualties on the Somme is that the allies could afford it when the germans couldn't.
The germans attacked verdun and turned it into a deliberate meat grinder to try and break the french army. Nearly succeeded to.
It's horrible to comprehend but those are wages of that war, especially the early part.
The germans attacked verdun and turned it into a deliberate meat grinder to try and break the french army. Nearly succeeded to.
It's horrible to comprehend but those are wages of that war, especially the early part.
Langweilig said:
Well, of all the things to stumble upon on You Tube!
Motorhead -1916.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYSnE9nlLO8
That is a spectacular and emotionally charged piece of work. Not what you'd expect from Lemmy - but just shows what a sensitive and thoughtful man he was.Motorhead -1916.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYSnE9nlLO8
The key change at the end gets me every time I hear it.
Matt Harper said:
Langweilig said:
Well, of all the things to stumble upon on You Tube!
Motorhead -1916.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYSnE9nlLO8
That is a spectacular and emotionally charged piece of work. Not what you'd expect from Lemmy - but just shows what a sensitive and thoughtful man he was.Motorhead -1916.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYSnE9nlLO8
The key change at the end gets me every time I hear it.
This just came up on my feeds, I wasnt aware of it. Really does make you think.....
"....rows of white shrouded, 12 inch figures, each one representing the 19,240 Allied servicemen who died that day."
http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/exeter-s-shr...
"....rows of white shrouded, 12 inch figures, each one representing the 19,240 Allied servicemen who died that day."
http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/exeter-s-shr...
I did a cycle tour of the Sommme, Ypres and St omer last year and I have just come back from Verdun. Both are very strange places to visit but I found the Somme to be quite extraordinary. A lot of the battle fields and cemetries are very quiet with no bird song to be heard. Being flat, you can quite easily visualise where the fronts moved.
In Verdun, everything is overgrown with lots of the old forts hidden in amongst the trees but the evidence of shelling is clearer to see. The new memorial which was open by Hollande and Merkel is quite breath taking.
A senseless loss of life though for all sides.
In Verdun, everything is overgrown with lots of the old forts hidden in amongst the trees but the evidence of shelling is clearer to see. The new memorial which was open by Hollande and Merkel is quite breath taking.
A senseless loss of life though for all sides.
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