something afoot in Turkey?

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Discussion

Guvernator

13,104 posts

164 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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Pesty said:
I keep reading that yet it was urban Turks who stood against the soldiers in the cities and stopped the coup.

It doesn't play out unless those guys dragging and torturing soldiers were bussed in just in time from the countryside.
There has been a massive influx over the last decade or so of rural Turks leaving their farms etc behind and moving into the city. Most of the major cities are now full of people who have come from a rural background. Parts of Istanbul are very modern and Western and yet you can walk through some parts and it feels like you've gone back in time 200 years in the way people talk, live and dress. I've seen cows walking about on the road in a major city. It really is a massive dichotomy and it's very telling that the well educated\well travelled are mostly anti-Erdogan and it's the less educated parts of the Turkish society that are his staunchest supporters.

Even the majority of those who live in the city aren't educated to a high degree. I think we are pretty isolated from this kind of stuff in the Western world but it is amazing to see just how high levels of ignorance can be in a city of this size. If you have a population make up of this nature, it's alarmingly easy, through control of the media, to manipulate them in any way you desire.

Do we have this kind of thing in the UK, of course we do, just go to any inner city centre to see examples of this, the rise of the "chav" culture in recent years is just one example, however we are minor league in terms of levels of ignorance in this country. The big difference between Western countries and less developed places is that as a society, we are a lot further along the social intelligence curve then they are.

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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Guvernator said:
The big difference between Western countries and less developed places is that as a society, we are a lot further along the social intelligence curve then they are.
This, essentially, is one of the major reasons why unfettered immigration to the EU is not entirely successful. For every man and woman arriving into the Western world and embracing its culture and opportunity, there are unkown numbers who have no real interest in doing anything other than more of the same, from wherever the started.

Education and freedom of information can help to bridge the gaps, but then Erdogan is not really wanting that.

E24man

6,654 posts

178 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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You can call it a Social Intelligence Curve or you can it Culture.

Many of the differences we see between Western Europe and the further reaches of Eastern Europe and beyond are deep rooted social, cultural and religious differences that the people's are not prepared to give up; what they wish to do is keep them, practice them here and in some cases spread them, quite often against the laws in Western Europe, more often against the culture in Western Europe.

Cobnapint

8,596 posts

150 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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3 more years of Erdogan before he has to start thinking about rigging the next GE.

And thereis nobody left to stop him - he's about arrested everybody hasn't he?

PoleDriver

28,614 posts

193 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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Cobnapint said:
he's about arrested everybody hasn't he?
Only those in Turkey!

avinalarf

6,438 posts

141 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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Sam All said:
Many German Turks came out to demonstrate for Erdogan.
I don't think that Gay German Turks will have much traction with Erdogan

Likes Fast Cars

2,769 posts

164 months

Tuesday 2nd August 2016
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From our friend Mr Bekdil:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/coup-lessons-.asp...

I'm pleased Burak has not given in to the current attempts at cowering and beating the (remaining) non-aligned media into submission / subservience to the president.

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Tuesday 2nd August 2016
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Likes Fast Cars said:
From our friend Mr Bekdil:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/coup-lessons-.asp...

I'm pleased Burak has not given in to the current attempts at cowering and beating the (remaining) non-aligned media into submission / subservience to the president.
Enlightening article; so why were the West costing up to this Islamist in the first place?

Likes Fast Cars

2,769 posts

164 months

Wednesday 3rd August 2016
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Well Digga it's a kinda long, long story. I would need the amount of time it takes to consume a case of Turkey's finest rakı to tell it!

So here's the half-pint length version:

Erdogan's party got elected in 2002 promising to work towards removing bureaucracy, attaining EU membership, and signing on to a whole bunch of reforms;

secular business people at the time supported the AKP's rise as they felt it was time for a "new Turkey" and to bring the country together (economic reforms, more money, etc...) which worked for a few years;

the stupid Europeans (and dare I say, Brits too!) also said Erdogan was a "moderate Muslim", etc. (overlooking the fact he had served a jail sentence (approx 9 to 12 months AFAIR) for breaching the Constitution by making a public speech which was Islamic in nature);

FDI was good for a number of years so nobody "rocked the boat" (here or elsewhere), giving "Reggie Doggers" Erdogan the breathing space he needed to make his move to: crush opponents, start introducing an Islamic agenda (started with the "reform" of the education system 5 years ago), and pursued the now self-confessed "phony" Ergenekon and Balyoz cases to crush the military's power (weaken the military, you remove the potential for a military coup which as we have seen before happens when a leader gets too religious or corrupt).

Our of beer now!

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Wednesday 3rd August 2016
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Likes Fast Cars said:
Well Digga it's a kinda long, long story. I would need the amount of time it takes to consume a case of Turkey's finest rak? to tell it!

So here's the half-pint length version:

Erdogan's party got elected in 2002 promising to work towards removing bureaucracy, attaining EU membership, and signing on to a whole bunch of reforms;

secular business people at the time supported the AKP's rise as they felt it was time for a "new Turkey" and to bring the country together (economic reforms, more money, etc...) which worked for a few years;

the stupid Europeans (and dare I say, Brits too!) also said Erdogan was a "moderate Muslim", etc. (overlooking the fact he had served a jail sentence (approx 9 to 12 months AFAIR) for breaching the Constitution by making a public speech which was Islamic in nature);

FDI was good for a number of years so nobody "rocked the boat" (here or elsewhere), giving "Reggie Doggers" Erdogan the breathing space he needed to make his move to: crush opponents, start introducing an Islamic agenda (started with the "reform" of the education system 5 years ago), and pursued the now self-confessed "phony" Ergenekon and Balyoz cases to crush the military's power (weaken the military, you remove the potential for a military coup which as we have seen before happens when a leader gets too religious or corrupt).

Our of beer now!
Thanks for the (pint) potted history of the rise of Erdogan! I guess, coming after the recent secular totalitarian regimes, someone who was Islamic and secular was seen as a good thing...

Likes Fast Cars

2,769 posts

164 months

Wednesday 3rd August 2016
quotequote all
Digga said:
Thanks for the (pint) potted history of the rise of Erdogan! I guess, coming after the recent secular totalitarian regimes, someone who was Islamic and secular was seen as a good thing...
No worries.
One day I may decide to quit work and write a book on the shenanigans of this fker, I may even get arrested! smile

Guvernator

13,104 posts

164 months

Wednesday 3rd August 2016
quotequote all
Digga said:
Thanks for the (pint) potted history of the rise of Erdogan! I guess, coming after the recent secular totalitarian regimes, someone who was Islamic and secular was seen as a good thing...
Exactly this, for years Islamic beliefs were suppressed a bit too zealously by the previous secular governments in a bid to move closer to Europe, the politicians seeming to forget that Turkey is a majority Muslim country. Be it through good timing or just pure luck, Erdogan's arrival on the political scene was right on time to ride the wave of the backlash by the more fundamentalist Turks who started to push back against what was seen as a departure from more traditional ways.

Unfortunately it has now gone too far the other way but tbh this is just a repeat of history. Most Western countries achieve an equilibrium at some point. We don't really have too many extremes in the UK for example that rock the boat, the two major parties are just slightly left or right of centre which makes for a relatively stable country. Unfortunately Turkey aren't there yet, there are extremists on both sides of the line and so every 20 years or so we get this violent swing which sends the whole country into turmoil. Tbh I'm surprised there hasn't been more bloodshed and violence but that's only because the moderates seem to be keeping quite (for now).

tumble dryer

1,996 posts

126 months

Wednesday 3rd August 2016
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Guv, my man, I am indebted to you for your ongoing and balanced views/explanations. Your posts are both knowledgeable and fulfilling to read.

Kudos.

Guvernator

13,104 posts

164 months

Wednesday 3rd August 2016
quotequote all
tumble dryer said:
Guv, my man, I am indebted to you for your ongoing and balanced views/explanations. Your posts are both knowledgeable and fulfilling to read.

Kudos.
Thanks I have family who live out there so I get a lot of inside track info. I'm also not affiliated to any particular cause so hopefully have a more balanced view of things which I try to convey. It's a beautiful country but they really do have a way to go. The politics and public opinion is way too black or white, there is no middle ground which makes for volatilaty. Like many countries in that region they need to mature at a social level to think about getting beyond the current cycle they seem to be stuck in, I just hope they get the chance. Add in the fact that those with money or power are out on a pedestal due to the fact that the majority of the country are poor and its like a perfect storm.

That whole region will be volatile for another 100 years IMO. Just now seen a new piece showing people are still on "democracy watch", that's people still on the streets 2 weeks after the coup because Erdogan hasn't told the sheep they can go home. I don't hold out much hope that things will get better before they get a lot worse.

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Thursday 4th August 2016
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Guvernator said:
Thanks I have family who live out there so I get a lot of inside track info. I'm also not affiliated to any particular cause so hopefully have a more balanced view of things which I try to convey. It's a beautiful country but they really do have a way to go. The politics and public opinion is way too black or white, there is no middle ground which makes for volatilaty. Like many countries in that region they need to mature at a social level to think about getting beyond the current cycle they seem to be stuck in, I just hope they get the chance. Add in the fact that those with money or power are out on a pedestal due to the fact that the majority of the country are poor and its like a perfect storm.

That whole region will be volatile for another 100 years IMO. Just now seen a new piece showing people are still on "democracy watch", that's people still on the streets 2 weeks after the coup because Erdogan hasn't told the sheep they can go home. I don't hold out much hope that things will get better before they get a lot worse.
As someone who also takes an interest in Turkey, but has only been to the Istanbul area (on a number of occasions), it's good to read your thoughts. Although I don't have any detailed understanding of the issues involved, I do most certainly agree with your general summary of the situation. Thank you.

GoodOlBoy

528 posts

102 months

Thursday 4th August 2016
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Guvernator said:
.... It's a beautiful country but they really do have a way to go. The politics and public opinion is way too black or white, there is no middle ground which makes for volatilaty. Like many countries in that region they need to mature at a social level to think about getting beyond the current cycle they seem to be stuck in, I just hope they get the chance. .....
I believe Turkey would have continued becoming ever more moderate, and modern, if it wasn't for Erdogan.

It's ironic that he's seen by many as "protecting" democracy when he's been slowly doing exactly the opposite.

As someone posted earlier, he was imprisoned some years ago - for religious intolerance.

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Thursday 4th August 2016
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glazbagun said:
The thing which saddens me is that, like WWI in retrospect, we can all see it happening and could really do with being really sober, boring and selfless about the whole thing.
I don't really see the parallel, as IMO this entire story stinks. I certainly don't know more than any other average joe about what is going on there, but a number of things don't add up in all of this.

There is a direct connection to the events in Syria IMO, and we already know what the endgame is there in terms of US foreign policy. With the intro. of Gülen (who is monied and highly influential) hiding out in the US, the plot thickens. Given that Turkey claims it was Gülen operatives who shot down the Russian plane, and that there is clearly an internal power struggle taking place, it makes me wonder if the coup isn't just a repeat of events in the Ukraine -- or rather, a coup to get rid of a sitting president who does not pay fealty to his Western masters.

The fact that the media are in overdrive on demonizing Erdogan is another tip-off. But who knows at this point.



Very interesting interview with German-American historian F. Willam Engdahl on this matter:

http://www.williamengdahl.com/englishNEO18July2016...




Edited by scherzkeks on Thursday 4th August 09:28

Guvernator

13,104 posts

164 months

Thursday 4th August 2016
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
I don't really see the parallel, as IMO this entire story stinks. I certainly don't know more than any other average joe about what is going on there, but a number of things don't add up in all of this.

There is a direct connection to the events in Syria IMO, and we already know what the endgame is there in terms of US foreign policy. With the intro. of Gülen (who is monied and highly influential) hiding out in the US, the plot thickens. Given that Turkey claims it was Gülen operatives who shot down the Russian plane, and that there is clearly an internal power struggle taking place, it makes me wonder if the coup isn't just a repeat of events in the Ukraine -- or rather, a coup to get rid of a sitting president who does not pay fealty to his Western masters.

The fact that the media are in overdrive on demonizing Erdogan is another tip-off. But who knows at this point.


Edited by scherzkeks on Thursday 4th August 09:06
I'm not going to get all tin foil or start finger pointing (cough* US cough*) but I think there are external forces at play whose efforts are de-stabilising that region even more than it already is. We've seen other countries and\or leaderships toppled by intervention from outside forces in a very similar manner to what is now happening in Turkey. Add in the fact that one of the main people involved, Gulen is now hiding out in Pennsylvania, USA and it's no wonder that people are thinking along those lines as this is textbook MO for them.

Turkey is also in a VERY key strategic location being the buffer between Europe and the Middle East as well as right on the doorstep of Russia so I can understand the desire that certain countries may have to be in control of that region in some way. What the end game is I don't really know but IF the US are involved, they are playing a VERY dangerous game with that region which has potential to blow up in their faces.

Cobnapint

8,596 posts

150 months

Thursday 4th August 2016
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http://news.sky.com/story/turkeys-eu-membership-ta...

Looks like the EU has realised it's a non-runner, the migrant deal with Turkey is all but over, and as suspected, Turkey is looking to Russia for a bit of pillow talk.

PoleDriver

28,614 posts

193 months

Thursday 4th August 2016
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I don't think that things have got any safer there yet!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/04/body...