Tesla Master Plan part deux
Discussion
Jader1973 said:
I used to live in England, my parents live in Scotland. It was 600 km one way to visit them. I used to leave my house with a full tank, stop for 10 mins for a break in the Lake District, and then get there with about an 1/8th of a tank left. Hardly mythical.
Now I live in Aus. The distances here are massive - my sister in law lives 200km away, and that is regarded as fairly close! Down here a car with a range of only 300km is regarded as useless by a huge portion of the population. I suspect the US will be similar.
Range is a huge hurdle for them to overcome and until there is a fast charging station in every town the has a petrol station that will remain the case. in fact in Aus you'd need charging stations in places that don't currently have them given the distances.
How often do you visit your sil? Now I live in Aus. The distances here are massive - my sister in law lives 200km away, and that is regarded as fairly close! Down here a car with a range of only 300km is regarded as useless by a huge portion of the population. I suspect the US will be similar.
Range is a huge hurdle for them to overcome and until there is a fast charging station in every town the has a petrol station that will remain the case. in fact in Aus you'd need charging stations in places that don't currently have them given the distances.
Most Ozzies live in big cities, and commute short distances I bet. I'm always amazed when I visit how big the country is and how few people are outside the main centres.
http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/australian-moter...
Says average yearly distance is 15500kms so thats 42km a day or so.
https://bitre.gov.au/publications/2015/files/is_07...
• On a place of residence basis, Australia’s average commuting distance was 15.6 km.
• The average commuting distances for the rest of the state are generally higher than the corresponding metropolitan areas.
• The larger capital cities had relatively long commutes—Sydney’s average was 15.0 km, Melbourne’s was 14.6 km, and Brisbane’s was 14.9 km, Perth’s was 14.9 km and Adelaide’s was 12.4 km. Smaller capital cities’ average commuting distance was shorter—Hobart’s was 11.5 km, Darwin was 12.3 km and the ACT was 11.5 km—reflecting the smaller urban footprint.
• The average commuting distance of residents of the major cities can be grouped into four ranges:
o 9–12 km: Townsville, Cairns, Launceston, Albury–Wodonga, Toowoomba and Canberra– Queanbeyan.
o 12–14 km: Bendigo, Darwin, Adelaide, Ballarat, Hobart
o 14–15 km: Melbourne, Brisbane, Geelong, Perth, Sydney
o 15–20 km: Newcastle-Maitland, Gold Coast–Tweed Heads, Sunshine Coast, Mackay and Wollongong.
Also over 50% of Australian households have 2 or more cars.
http://profile.id.com.au/australia/car-ownership
Edited by RobDickinson on Sunday 24th July 02:08
eccles said:
why would they suddenly choose to do it just because the car is electric?
Not because its electric.Because its self driving, convenient and cheaper.
If instead of using your own car you just step outside and into a fleet car and it takes you where you want, just like what your own self driving car would do, where is the difference?
If its functionally the same as owning one, but without the hassle and expense, who would choose to own one?
Some Gump said:
Impasse said:
davepoth said:
Probably not, as it happens. The particulars of electric motors make them rather well suited to goods haulage - for example, double up the drivetrain of the Model S P85D and it's more powerful in terms of both HP and torque than the top of the line Mercedes Benz Actros tractor unit. All up, a pair of P85Ds would weigh about 4 tonnes, and a Mercedes Actros is about 10 tonnes. 6 tonnes of battery would get you a very long way.
I have to ask the question of when would the batteries be recharged? Do drivers take long enough mandatory breaks to allow the recharging 6 tonnes of battery? Trucks need a lot of constant power, a car usually doesnt. battery requirements are huge.
Jader1973 said:
Getting a taxi is "functionally the same" as owning a car. Last time I looked there were a lot more private cars on the road than taxis.
At the moment, no its not. Taxi's cost a lot because you are paying a driver. You have to wait for them too. Uber is closer but you still have the extra expense.Switch to self driving BEV's and you have no difference between using your own and someone elses.
No driver, low fuel costs, low maintenance costs.
I'm pretty sure that drag stripping any vehicle continuously will run it out of fuel.
Yes BEV's run out of juice. So do ICE's.
Yes you can refil an ICE faster today than a BEV. Those times have dropped a lot and will continue to drop.
But if you add up the time spent filling up an ICE compared to a typical BEV ownership the ICE will loose.
5-10min every week or so for the ICE , or 20 seconds plugging the BEV in every 3-4 nights.
Yes BEV's run out of juice. So do ICE's.
Yes you can refil an ICE faster today than a BEV. Those times have dropped a lot and will continue to drop.
But if you add up the time spent filling up an ICE compared to a typical BEV ownership the ICE will loose.
5-10min every week or so for the ICE , or 20 seconds plugging the BEV in every 3-4 nights.
Tesla dont use any rare earth metals or magnets. Not that rare earth things are actually really rare anyhow.
Far more magnets in an ICE car.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/induction-versus-dc-bru...
Far more magnets in an ICE car.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/induction-versus-dc-bru...
Hydrogen filling station costs $3million a pop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station#Cos...
And actually filling up a hydrogen car takes as long as a BEV one at the moment.
Its poorer energy use, it leaks, containment degrades, its expensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station#Cos...
And actually filling up a hydrogen car takes as long as a BEV one at the moment.
Its poorer energy use, it leaks, containment degrades, its expensive.
TLandCruiser said:
You never read my links then, the Toyota mirai has a range of 325 miles and takes 3 minutes to fill up
Up to 300 miles and they quote 5min, but it has a larger tank than the Tucson and that takes 10min + If you can find a refuelling station, which cost up to $3million each..
(Oh and the whole fuel tank assembly needs replacing after 15 years. )
Jonesy23 said:
This argument would work better compared to BEVs if it weren't for the similar range, the difference in recharge time, the small issue of needing *many* more charging points by comparison (how many cars can a single service station handle vs how many public/private charging points needed at $xxxx), and a battery that also needs recycling after less than 15 years at significant replacement cost.
Hydrogen isn't a good solution but talking about recharge time, lifed parts and costs of refill stations doesn't get you far. Maybe try something like the possibility of the fuel dissipating with no home option to top up (unlike a battery) or the relatively poor performance of hydrogen fuelled engines while you still get the size/complexity/noise issues of an ICE.
True, but just pointing out Hydrogen tends to have very similar problems to BEV's but with others also. Hydrogen isn't a good solution but talking about recharge time, lifed parts and costs of refill stations doesn't get you far. Maybe try something like the possibility of the fuel dissipating with no home option to top up (unlike a battery) or the relatively poor performance of hydrogen fuelled engines while you still get the size/complexity/noise issues of an ICE.
And at the end of the day hydrogens energy equation just plain doesnt work. There isnt a situation where is preferable to make hydrogen rather than just charge batteries.
Welshbeef said:
They are not as robust as fuel nossels so imagine all those HGVs needing lots of 15 min charges back to back. As more and more use it then the base load on the grid increases just where is this extra capacity coming from.
Is there a parrot in here? The extra load is overnight and nowhere near peak daytime load, total non issue
s2art said:
Which brings us back to generation capacity. Really need a solution which enables the energy to be provided overnight when there is plenty of spare capacity (if not nearly enough for a country full of Evs)
If trucks are swapping batteries ( possibly a workable plan), then those batteries can be recharged overnight anyhow. The grid has plenty of off peak capacity.
s2art said:
Not anymore it doesnt. A few years ago, maybe.
52.54 gigawatts peak demand last winter (2015) https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Typical off peak in winter is ~38 gigawatts, summer 28 gigawatts.
Calculated earlier in the thread UK would need ~12 gigawatts per night to power all of its road use at the moment. Looks to me like there is certainly ample grid and generator power.
s2art said:
RobDickinson said:
s2art said:
Not anymore it doesnt. A few years ago, maybe.
52.54 gigawatts peak demand last winter (2015) https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Typical off peak in winter is ~38 gigawatts, summer 28 gigawatts.
Calculated earlier in the thread UK would need ~12 gigawatts per night to power all of its road use at the moment. Looks to me like there is certainly ample grid and generator power.
Though its not something new, the UK grid and capacity has been seriously under developed for a long time
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