Tesla Master Plan part deux
Discussion
Tonsko said:
Jonesy23 said:
So to summarise:
- Master Plan part deux obviously isn't even worth discussing so we'll turn this into a general electric car discussion.
- Electric cars suit some people perfectly, and they're convinced they'll suit a lot of other people.
- If you don't have needs that suit an electric car you can f
k off, because some of the true believers in this thread envisage a fascist utopia where other options are banned and if a Tesla doesn't work you can take public transport.
Sound about right?
That's just PH working it's magic. I'm sure you'll be able to choose.- Master Plan part deux obviously isn't even worth discussing so we'll turn this into a general electric car discussion.
- Electric cars suit some people perfectly, and they're convinced they'll suit a lot of other people.
- If you don't have needs that suit an electric car you can f
k off, because some of the true believers in this thread envisage a fascist utopia where other options are banned and if a Tesla doesn't work you can take public transport.Sound about right?
Self driving cars have massive positives not least that they will be vastly cheaper due to not spending 95% of their time sat still.
These positives mean that all the issues will be resolved and will be resolved surprisingly quickly because as Tesla and others are demonstrating the technologies can be phased in incrementally. Self driving cars and electric cars both enable each other.
IC engined, manually driven cars have substantial negative externalities. If autonomous vehicles are available and work expect them to be phased out by popular consent.
I expect it will be a phased withdrawal starting already by banning tail pipe emissions in certain places. However eventually I expect that the only IC cars will be classics and they will need a self driving kit to allow them to use most of the road network.
98elise said:
fblm said:
98elise said:
I love perfromace cars. Last weekend I was driving a 485 on a track
Damn it man. The question was obnoxious but you blew the reply! 
I do agree though. Electric car for commute, suv for family sh it, lightweight sports car for fun. Job done.
t boxes and I'll wager a majority don't even like driving. Electric cars and autonomous cars are coming. It does mean we won't be able to enjoy our IC cars except maybe in congested cities which is hardly a loss unless you're some tt who likes to circle harrods.RobDickinson said:
I'm pretty sure that drag stripping any vehicle continuously will run it out of fuel.
Yes BEV's run out of juice. So do ICE's.
Yes you can refil an ICE faster today than a BEV. Those times have dropped a lot and will continue to drop.
But if you add up the time spent filling up an ICE compared to a typical BEV ownership the ICE will loose.
5-10min every week or so for the ICE , or 20 seconds plugging the BEV in every 3-4 nights.
Strange logic you have there. Yes BEV's run out of juice. So do ICE's.
Yes you can refil an ICE faster today than a BEV. Those times have dropped a lot and will continue to drop.
But if you add up the time spent filling up an ICE compared to a typical BEV ownership the ICE will loose.
5-10min every week or so for the ICE , or 20 seconds plugging the BEV in every 3-4 nights.
I can take my diesel estate car and spend 5 minutes filling it up and it's good to go for another 600 miles, how far will a 5 minute charge take an EV?
Toyota seem to think the future is hydrogen, also got a refill time of 3 minutes.
https://www.toyota.co.uk/world-of-toyota/stories-n...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/a2d9151e-7427-11e5-a129-...
They have also been releasing patents for free.
https://www.toyota.co.uk/world-of-toyota/stories-n...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/a2d9151e-7427-11e5-a129-...
They have also been releasing patents for free.
Edited by TLandCruiser on Monday 25th July 07:47
RobDickinson said:
Physics?
There is no scenario where hydrogen is better for energy. We either use a LOT to create it or use fossil fuels.
Storing, transporting and delivering hydrogen is still a big expensive problem with no network.
If the industry moves away from ice, electric hgvs will be carrying as many batteries as their load. Also hydrogen already has the infrastructure virtually in place, petrol garages can slowly convert the pumps over. There's already 4 in the uk and set to be 65 by 2020.There is no scenario where hydrogen is better for energy. We either use a LOT to create it or use fossil fuels.
Storing, transporting and delivering hydrogen is still a big expensive problem with no network.
http://www.driving.co.uk/news/the-future-of-hydrog...
Hydrogen filling station costs $3million a pop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station#Cos...
And actually filling up a hydrogen car takes as long as a BEV one at the moment.
Its poorer energy use, it leaks, containment degrades, its expensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station#Cos...
And actually filling up a hydrogen car takes as long as a BEV one at the moment.
Its poorer energy use, it leaks, containment degrades, its expensive.
RobDickinson said:
Hydrogen filling station costs $3million a pop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station#Cos...
And actually filling up a hydrogen car takes as long as a BEV one at the moment.
Its poorer energy use, it leaks, containment degrades, its expensive.
You never read my links then, the Toyota mirai has a range of 325 miles and takes 3 minutes to fill uphttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station#Cos...
And actually filling up a hydrogen car takes as long as a BEV one at the moment.
Its poorer energy use, it leaks, containment degrades, its expensive.
fblm said:
98elise said:
fblm said:
98elise said:
I love perfromace cars. Last weekend I was driving a 485 on a track
Damn it man. The question was obnoxious but you blew the reply! I do agree though. Electric car for commute, suv for family sh it, lightweight sports car for fun. Job done.
t boxes and I'll wager a majority don't even like driving. Electric cars and autonomous cars are coming. It does mean we won't be able to enjoy our IC cars except maybe in congested cities which is hardly a loss unless you're some tt who likes to circle harrods.I agree on with you on what most people drive. All anyone has to do is look up and down the average street. Its a sea of bland saloon/hatchbacks. look how many people have switched to Diesel over the past decade. How many of them care about a cars soul? EV's will bring refined, quiet, simple motoring to those masses.
Add in proper autonomy and again those people will lap it up.
TLandCruiser said:
You never read my links then, the Toyota mirai has a range of 325 miles and takes 3 minutes to fill up
Up to 300 miles and they quote 5min, but it has a larger tank than the Tucson and that takes 10min + If you can find a refuelling station, which cost up to $3million each..
(Oh and the whole fuel tank assembly needs replacing after 15 years. )
TLandCruiser said:
RobDickinson said:
Physics?
There is no scenario where hydrogen is better for energy. We either use a LOT to create it or use fossil fuels.
Storing, transporting and delivering hydrogen is still a big expensive problem with no network.
If the industry moves away from ice, electric hgvs will be carrying as many batteries as their load. Also hydrogen already has the infrastructure virtually in place, petrol garages can slowly convert the pumps over. There's already 4 in the uk and set to be 65 by 2020.There is no scenario where hydrogen is better for energy. We either use a LOT to create it or use fossil fuels.
Storing, transporting and delivering hydrogen is still a big expensive problem with no network.
http://www.driving.co.uk/news/the-future-of-hydrog...
Hydrogen is just to difficult and expensive to be viable for cars. add to that a 10,000 psi tank in your car and the general public just won't go for it.
BEV's are simple and easy to understand for the general public, and Tesla have shown that the public will buy then. Hydrogen is Betamax/Lazer Disc/mini Disc etc.
RobDickinson said:
Up to 300 miles and they quote 5min, but it has a larger tank than the Tucson and that takes 10min +
If you can find a refuelling station, which cost up to $3million each..
(Oh and the whole fuel tank assembly needs replacing after 15 years. )
Honda are releasing a hydrogen car with a range of 425 miles, these are just the first models so much can be improved upon. I don't doubt electric cars will not succeed however, I can't see an electric HGV for a long long time. If you can find a refuelling station, which cost up to $3million each..
(Oh and the whole fuel tank assembly needs replacing after 15 years. )
RobDickinson said:
Up to 300 miles and they quote 5min, but it has a larger tank than the Tucson and that takes 10min +
If you can find a refuelling station, which cost up to $3million each..
(Oh and the whole fuel tank assembly needs replacing after 15 years. )
This argument would work better compared to BEVs if it weren't for the similar range, the difference in recharge time, the small issue of needing *many* more charging points by comparison (how many cars can a single service station handle vs how many public/private charging points needed at $xxxx), and a battery that also needs recycling after less than 15 years at significant replacement cost. If you can find a refuelling station, which cost up to $3million each..
(Oh and the whole fuel tank assembly needs replacing after 15 years. )
Hydrogen isn't a good solution but talking about recharge time, lifed parts and costs of refill stations doesn't get you far. Maybe try something like the possibility of the fuel dissipating with no home option to top up (unlike a battery) or the relatively poor performance of hydrogen fuelled engines while you still get the size/complexity/noise issues of an ICE.
Jonesy23 said:
This argument would work better compared to BEVs if it weren't for the similar range, the difference in recharge time, the small issue of needing *many* more charging points by comparison (how many cars can a single service station handle vs how many public/private charging points needed at $xxxx), and a battery that also needs recycling after less than 15 years at significant replacement cost.
Hydrogen isn't a good solution but talking about recharge time, lifed parts and costs of refill stations doesn't get you far. Maybe try something like the possibility of the fuel dissipating with no home option to top up (unlike a battery) or the relatively poor performance of hydrogen fuelled engines while you still get the size/complexity/noise issues of an ICE.
True, but just pointing out Hydrogen tends to have very similar problems to BEV's but with others also. Hydrogen isn't a good solution but talking about recharge time, lifed parts and costs of refill stations doesn't get you far. Maybe try something like the possibility of the fuel dissipating with no home option to top up (unlike a battery) or the relatively poor performance of hydrogen fuelled engines while you still get the size/complexity/noise issues of an ICE.
And at the end of the day hydrogens energy equation just plain doesnt work. There isnt a situation where is preferable to make hydrogen rather than just charge batteries.
It seems there are a couple of parallel discussions going on in this thread
1) EVs are the future
Yes, probably eventually but in the medium to long term they'll co-exist with ICE/Hybrid/Range extender tech because their adoption has serious limitations in terms of range, recharge times and infrastructure.
However I don't think the "it does 300km per charge what is your problem with it" argument holds water because if manufacturers thought people wanted cars that could only do 300km then they'd be making them today. A car with a 20 litre fuel tank would get better fuel consumption (lower mass) and would cost less (smaller part) but I can't see Ford releasing a new Fiesta with half the range as an example. Although it would be interesting to see what would happen if a mainstream manufacturer did do that.
Trucks are significantly harder because they'd need to lug around massive batteries to get the range required so they'd lose payload. Maybe we'll see a return to the "old" days where every railway station had a goods yard and stuff got delivered in bulk and then delivered locally by smaller BEV trucks. Would need to rebuild quite a few railways though.
2) Autonomous driving is coming and the future is BEV taxis that appear on demand
Yes, autonomous driving is coming but has a long way to go before it is proven to be safe and reliable. EVs aren't needed for it to happen there are already ICE cars with better tech than a Tesla e.g. the new Merc E-Class. The motive power is irrelevant.
However, I can't see the "nobody has a car, everyone uses an on demand BEV taxi" happening at all. I don't know about you but I don't want to live in a world where my only available form of transport is an autonomous version of this:
I'll hold on to a non-autonomous ICE car as long as I possibly can thanks. In fact, if trucks retain diesel ICE and the fuel is available then maybe a 325D is the answer after all
1) EVs are the future
Yes, probably eventually but in the medium to long term they'll co-exist with ICE/Hybrid/Range extender tech because their adoption has serious limitations in terms of range, recharge times and infrastructure.
However I don't think the "it does 300km per charge what is your problem with it" argument holds water because if manufacturers thought people wanted cars that could only do 300km then they'd be making them today. A car with a 20 litre fuel tank would get better fuel consumption (lower mass) and would cost less (smaller part) but I can't see Ford releasing a new Fiesta with half the range as an example. Although it would be interesting to see what would happen if a mainstream manufacturer did do that.
Trucks are significantly harder because they'd need to lug around massive batteries to get the range required so they'd lose payload. Maybe we'll see a return to the "old" days where every railway station had a goods yard and stuff got delivered in bulk and then delivered locally by smaller BEV trucks. Would need to rebuild quite a few railways though.
2) Autonomous driving is coming and the future is BEV taxis that appear on demand
Yes, autonomous driving is coming but has a long way to go before it is proven to be safe and reliable. EVs aren't needed for it to happen there are already ICE cars with better tech than a Tesla e.g. the new Merc E-Class. The motive power is irrelevant.
However, I can't see the "nobody has a car, everyone uses an on demand BEV taxi" happening at all. I don't know about you but I don't want to live in a world where my only available form of transport is an autonomous version of this:
I'll hold on to a non-autonomous ICE car as long as I possibly can thanks. In fact, if trucks retain diesel ICE and the fuel is available then maybe a 325D is the answer after all
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